Author Topic: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative  (Read 3243 times)

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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2016, 04:02:28 am »
Very silly, but what Reagan stated then,  holds true today. Hard right isn't going to win an election today.

Who is calling for hard Right?

A-Lert

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2016, 04:04:44 am »
I am a welfare recipient and all around loser. Spend my day stealing dollar off coupons for baked beans and sniffing stolen underwear. Now I amuse myself by exibiting fart performances at a local park. I do feel superior about that.

You're forgiven. Maybe Donnie can put you to work in a casino. Is your Hollywood gig over? I enjoy your TV program reruns  even though they are in black and white.

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2016, 04:08:56 am »


There has been a massive and sustained failure by "conservative" leaders. 

Proclaiming "no movement that embraces Trump can call itself conservative" is fuel for the movement---not an insult.

There are no "conservative" leaders - possible exception of Cruz, and that might be his biggest challenge (to move beyond that isolated corner) - there are just leaders who say they are conservative regardless of what their actions are...Paul Ryan being one of many examples. Because they are in fact more conservative than say, Bernie, they feel comfortable doing so. The cognitive dissonance between what they say and their actual actions is their biggest problem...well that and being afraid of everything which makes them exceedingly wimpy.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 04:42:45 am by Scottftlc »
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

...Bob Dylan

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2016, 04:12:33 am »
You're forgiven. Maybe Donnie can put you to work in a casino. Is your Hollywood gig over? I enjoy your TV program reruns  even though they are in black and white.

You need to stop buying Trump TV's, a division of Trump Vodka. Most TV's have been color since 1968.

A-Lert

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2016, 04:16:33 am »
You need to stop buying Trump TV's, a division of Trump Vodka. Most TV's have been color since 1968.

The TV's are, surprisingly your reruns aren't.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2016, 02:35:31 pm »
Mark Levin best described Trumps run as a third party run inside the framework of an existing weak party. That's why over half of his party does not want him.

Did Mark Levin go on to explain why such a phenomenon is even possible--never mind successful?

Offline aligncare

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2016, 03:34:18 pm »

A-Lert, you're such a twit.

Half of conservatives who voted in the Republican primaries thus far, voted for Donald Trump.

Get used to it.

You don't own the conservative mantle.

A-Lert

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2016, 06:42:28 pm »
Half of conservatives who voted in the Republican primaries thus far, voted for Donald Trump.

Get used to it.

You don't own the conservative mantle.

Ronald Reagan understood that the hard right couldn't win a national election. You'd think by now that more conservatives would realize that.

Offline aligncare

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2016, 07:13:06 pm »
 :beer:

The GOP talks about growing the party, but when someone comes along with a message that resonates, everyone goes freaking nuts!

Strong on immigration policy, strong on tax, job and economic policy, strong on National security and veterans issues. Infrastructure, security, America first, jobs, NO MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS FROM THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND!

Donald Trump. What's not to like?



Offline sneakypete

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2016, 08:06:45 pm »


There has been a massive and sustained failure by "conservative" leaders. 

Proclaiming "no movement that embraces Trump can call itself conservative" is fuel for the movement---not an insult.

Well,the truth is conservatism hasn't really had a leader since the Republican Party was infiltrated by former Dims,and Newt and the rest of the leadership were blackmailed into becoming Dim lapdogs.

I kept telling the people back in those days that were celebrating every Dim politician that swapped Parties to be careful about what they were celebrating because no one throws away 30 or more years of ideology no matter what letter they now have behind their name.

It's all been downhill ever since.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2016, 08:08:19 pm »
Trump's followers are not conservatives because he is not conservative. 

They love an iconoclast.  Burn it down, you don't give a damn what he replaces it with.

Is it really all that hard to understand why so many people now have that mindset?

You can only rub someone's face in the mud for so long before they build resentments and want to fight back.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2016, 08:10:27 pm »
What you're really witnessing the fall of the two party system, to be honest.

Trump - nationalists
Cruz - religious conservatives
Rubio - corporate/libertarians
Hillary - corporate/liberal
Sanders - social democrats

Other countries have more than 2 parties, maybe we should too?

Offline sneakypete

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2016, 08:10:59 pm »
There are no "conservative" leaders - possible exception of Cruz, and that might be his biggest challenge (to move beyond that isolated corner) - there are just leaders who say they are conservative regardless of what their actions are...Paul Ryan being one of many examples. Because they are in fact more conservative than say, Bernie, they feel comfortable doing so. The cognitive dissonance between what they say and their actual actions is their biggest problem...well that and being afraid of everything which makes them exceedingly wimpy.

 :amen:
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2016, 08:11:57 pm »
My guess is eventually we'll have a large number of candidates that will make it impossible to get a majority in the electoral college, the presidents will get elected by the House of Representatives regularly. We will then have a defacto parliamentary system... maybe for the better?

Offline sneakypete

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2016, 08:13:04 pm »
:beer:

The GOP talks about growing the party, but when someone comes along with a message that resonates, everyone goes freaking nuts!

Strong on immigration policy, strong on tax, job and economic policy, strong on National security and veterans issues. Infrastructure, security, America first, jobs, NO MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS FROM THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND!

Donald Trump. What's not to like?



The fact that he has at least 17 positions on all of the above,and is lying through he teeth about all of them because he HAS no core beliefs other than the one that tells him how wonderful he is.

THE MAN IS FREAKING INSANE!
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sinkspur

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2016, 08:13:43 pm »
Half of conservatives who voted in the Republican primaries thus far, voted for Donald Trump.

Get used to it.

You don't own the conservative mantle.

Of course you have statistics to back up your assertion, correct?
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2016, 08:22:18 pm »


There has been a massive and sustained failure by "conservative" leaders. 

Proclaiming "no movement that embraces Trump can call itself conservative" is fuel for the movement---not an insult.

A few thinking people from the center-right have realized lately, that the brand "conservative" went down the wastepipe with the brand "Republican."

Trump is rebuilding something new, imperfect, bold, and doing remarkably well at it. I applaud the courage of trying.

People opposing Trump range from solid thinkers, to all out cranks like Glenn Beck.

It is somewhat like awakening from a period of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results---To doing something DIFFERENT.

If you are still in denial you simply do not get it, YET.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline EasyAce

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2016, 08:58:15 pm »
Well,the truth is conservatism hasn't really had a leader since the Republican Party was infiltrated by former Dims,and Newt and the rest of the leadership were blackmailed into becoming Dim lapdogs.

Gingrich didn't exactly have to be blackmailed into it.

I've posted this before but it's worth re-reading. From a book that should have been required reading before the
2008 campaigns . . .

Quote
Gingrich is almost universally associated with opposition to big government. But that
was not actually the case. Gingrich rhetorically criticised big government. And it served his
enemies in the Clinton administration to portray Gingrich as slashing government programs.
The Gingrich-inspired "Contract with America" was generally seen as a call for smaller govern-
ment although it did not actually call for cutting a single government program. (The closest
it came was a call for zero-baseline budgeting.)

Actually, Gingrich opposed bureaucratic government---inefficient government---not big
government per se. As Gingrich said in 1994, "government plays a huge role" in society and
"anybody who believes in the American Constitution ought to believe in a fairly strong
government." He went on to say that he has "no particular beef with big government." Or,
as he has said more recently, if the bureaucracies can be reformed and made more
efficient, "the country could get excited about the opportunity to make government
work."

That is not to say that Gingrich and his followers would not like to see a smaller govern-
ment. Many changes they support would indeed reduce government bureaucracies. But
in the end, Gingrichism means "recognising that even a relatively small federal or state
government will be much bigger than anything the Founding Fathers could have dreamed
of" . . .

Make government institutions "efficient" and all else will fall into place. "As a country we
can give people better lives through better solutions by bringing government into
conformity with the enterpreneurial systems they are experiencing in the private sector."
The issue is not how big government is or how much it spends; it is whether we have
"the systems architecture that would spend it intelligently." Traditional conservatives
want the government simply to do less. But Gingrich and his fellow technophiles
believe that the right systems architecture will enable the government to provide "greater
goods and services at lower and lower costs."

This attitude gave Gingrich conservatism its appearance of optimism. Rather than being
against big government, Gingrich could be for reform. "We need to move from a 'no,
because' to a 'yes, if' approach to government policy." Former representative Vin Weber,
one of Gingrich's followers, has also sounded the call for reforming government, rather
than cutting it:

Conservatives have to do better than simply bash government. We
have to lead the way toward reform of government. We need to look at the whole
government and think about how to empower the consumers of government
benefits, rather the bureaucracy. Conservatives who simply look to abolish
agencies are going to be disappointed, but conservative reformers still have an
open field.

Thus one could say of Gingrich's conservatism, "while this view did indeed see the
federal government as the source of many of the nation's troubles, it did not hold
that the problem was federal power as such. Change those wielding federal power,
and the power could be harnessed to the ends of conservative reform". . .

Gingrich once called for abolishing the Department of Education, but he has since
become an enthusiastic supporter of federal government involvement in education. He
endorsed President Clinton's plan for the federal government to finance 100,000 new
teachers and called for the government to provide Internet access to all Americans
and computers to every four-year-old. He has proposed paying students for taking
difficult math and science courses.

Energy policy is another area where Gingrich . . . support(s) massive government inter-
vention. Gingrich strongly supports the Bush administration's investment in trying to
build hydrogen-powered vehicles. But that's only the start. He would support a host
of public-private partnerships, investments in alternative fuels, and conservation
measures. Almost anything goes, as long as it involves new technology . . .

(F)ar from leading conservatism back to the philosophy of Reagan and Goldwater,
Gingrich's ideas for a technocratic, efficient, and bigger federal government have
helped drive it toward the big-government conservatism that drives it today.

From Michael D. Tanner, Leviathan on the Right: How Big Government Conservatism
Brought Down the Republican Revolution
.

Mr. Tanner cited, among other documents, Gingrich's own foreword to Alvin and Heidi
Toffler's Creating a New Civilisation: The Politics of the Third Wave (Gingrich
himself was so influenced by The Third Wave* he made it mandatory reading
for new Republican Congressmen while he was Speaker of the House); two Gingrich
essays published in The Wall Street Journal in 2001; a feature on Gingrich in
Washington Technology's January 1995 issue; a Gingrich speech to the
American Association for the Advancement of Science in 2000; Tod Lindberg's analysis "Gin-
grich Lost and Found" in Policy Review (the April-May 1999 issue); and, Gingrich's
speech to the American Enterprise Institute in February 2005.

(*---In case you were wondering, in The Third Wave Alvin Toffler said the Constitution
"is increasingly obsolete, and hence increasingly, if inadvertently, oppressive and danger-
ous to our welfare" and, thus, ought to "die and be replaced." That from the book Gingrich
once called "the seminal work of our time," the book he made mandatory reading for newly-
elected Republicans during his Speakership
.)

With Republican'ts like that we didn't need Damnocrats . . .


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2016, 09:16:11 pm »
Gingrich didn't exactly have to be blackmailed into it.

I've posted this before but it's worth re-reading. From a book that should have been required reading before the
2008 campaigns . . .

From Michael D. Tanner, Leviathan on the Right: How Big Government Conservatism
Brought Down the Republican Revolution
.


I was maybe half-way with him until it was mentioned the book he agreed with most was calling for the destruction of the US Constitution because it is "in the way".

The thing I love the most about the US Constitution is that it is often "In the way".
Mr. Tanner cited, among other documents, Gingrich's own foreword to Alvin and Heidi
Toffler's Creating a New Civilisation: The Politics of the Third Wave (Gingrich
himself was so influenced by The Third Wave* he made it mandatory reading
for new Republican Congressmen while he was Speaker of the House); two Gingrich
essays published in The Wall Street Journal in 2001; a feature on Gingrich in
Washington Technology's January 1995 issue; a Gingrich speech to the
American Association for the Advancement of Science in 2000; Tod Lindberg's analysis "Gin-
grich Lost and Found" in Policy Review (the April-May 1999 issue); and, Gingrich's
speech to the American Enterprise Institute in February 2005.

(*---In case you were wondering, in The Third Wave Alvin Toffler said the Constitution
"is increasingly obsolete, and hence increasingly, if inadvertently, oppressive and danger-
ous to our welfare" and, thus, ought to "die and be replaced." That from the book Gingrich
once called "the seminal work of our time," the book he made mandatory reading for newly-
elected Republicans during his Speakership
.)

With Republican'ts like that we didn't need Damnocrats . . .
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline EasyAce

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2016, 09:39:37 pm »
I was maybe half-way with him until it was mentioned the book he agreed with most was calling for the destruction of the US Constitution because it is "in the way".

The thing I love the most about the US Constitution is that it is often "In the way".

It's the thing that liberals and (you hate to say this, really) a lot of conservatives forget.

One of the things that often astonishes me about those who call for Supreme Court justices who
will "construe the Constitution reasonably" is that construing the Constitution reasonably often
means someone won't exactly get what they want, at some or even all points.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2016, 05:26:32 am »
Yeah just be good little sheep and keep doing what you done for the last 30 years. Vote for the Professional politicians who parrots"conservative...Conservative-Conservative" at you the most

And if you win, don't whine then when 2016 turns out to be a big nothing the same way 1994, 2000, 2004, 2010 and 2014 did for "Conservatives" when their political  parrots got to DC and proptly forgot all the " Conservatives"

HonestJohn

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Re: No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2016, 05:40:34 am »
Yeah just be good little sheep and keep doing what you done for the last 30 years. Vote for the Professional politicians who parrots"conservative...Conservative-Conservative" at you the most

And if you win, don't whine then when 2016 turns out to be a big nothing the same way 1994, 2000, 2004, 2010 and 2014 did for "Conservatives" when their political  parrots got to DC and proptly forgot all the " Conservatives"

Well, you don't have to vote Conservative.  Go for the anti-Conservative.  Currently there are two of them you can choose: Sanders or Clinton.

Don't settle for a wishy-washy, namby-pamby, am I/am I not anti-Conservative.  Go for the real thing!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 05:41:55 am by HonestJohn »