Author Topic: Rubio's Tough Night  (Read 5754 times)

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #75 on: February 08, 2016, 09:40:59 pm »
His rhetoric is deliberately divisive and poisonous, and appeals to the worst in people.  Ask the white supremacists -they're on the Trump bandwagon.

Yes, Trump's a hatemonger.   If immigration's your big issue then show some class and vote for Cruz.   

If immigration's NOT your big issue, you're not paying attention.

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #76 on: February 08, 2016, 09:57:08 pm »
Ah yes the last refuge of the Political Leftists. When you lose the debate, Accuse your opponents of being "racists"

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2016, 09:59:45 pm »
Like Kaisch, you are in the wrong political party JZ

John Kasich: I'm a good middle ground between Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders

http://theweek.com/speedreads/604396/john-kasich-im-good-middle-ground-between-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders

So JZ, what is Kaisch's  "middle ground" between a corrupt incompetent crony capitalist life long professional politician, and a Marxist life long professional politician?

Offline ArneFufkin

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #78 on: February 08, 2016, 10:02:50 pm »
I have to give Rubio credit, he held himself together thru all that bashing.... still won't vote for him, but I was impressed.
Christie was pretty rough on him... :)

I'm curious about your "still won't vote for him" declaration.

Are you speaking of the primary or in the General election against Clinton or Sanders?

Offline EdinVA

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #79 on: February 08, 2016, 10:06:51 pm »
I'm curious about your "still won't vote for him" declaration.

Are you speaking of the primary or in the General election against Clinton or Sanders?

Although there is little difference between them, I will push the button for Rubio in the general if that is my only option.

Offline ArneFufkin

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2016, 10:08:26 pm »
Although there is little difference between them, I will push the button for Rubio in the general if that is my only option.

As i would with Trump.

Thanks for clarifying that.  I saw two extremely dangerous people in the Dem debate.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:09:38 pm by ArneFufkin »

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #81 on: February 08, 2016, 10:16:27 pm »
So JZ, what is Kaisch's  "middle ground" between a corrupt incompetent crony capitalist life long professional politician, and a Marxist life long professional politician?

As I read the article, he was addressing an independent who couldn't decide whether to vote in the GOP or Democratic primary.  He wasn't suggesting he represented any sort of "middle ground" between Sanders and Clinton - he didn't use that word.   He appears to have playfully suggested that if Sanders is too hot and Clinton's too cold, then he may be the right temperature.   And I'd agree -  he's the right choice.   
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:17:03 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #82 on: February 08, 2016, 10:17:41 pm »
As i would with Trump.

Thanks for clarifying that.  I saw two extremely dangerous people in the Dem debate.

Trump's no less dangerous.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #83 on: February 08, 2016, 10:22:42 pm »
If immigration's NOT your big issue, you're not paying attention.

Oh, I've been paying attention all right.  I want someone who will solve the problem, not just talk about it.  I want a deal to secure the borders and to re-invigorate and enforce the rules regarding legal immigration.   I want a comprehensive solution.   

Trump's rhetoric to build a wall that Mexico will pay for,  and to round up, incarcerate and deport 11 million illegals regardless of circumstance is just hot talk to seduce the angry.  It's not even the starting point for an actual solution.   
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #84 on: February 08, 2016, 10:24:12 pm »
Trump's no less dangerous.
You appear to be obsessed with only seeing one aspect of Trump. I see the one guy speaking directly about the problems with illegal immigrant criminals, and muslim terrorists coming into our country.

And I see the one guy speaking directly about our trade balance, loss of jobs to other countries, and matters like that. So do many other good, hard working Americans.

That bothers you less than his personality, or style?

 
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #85 on: February 08, 2016, 10:34:18 pm »
Trump's no less dangerous.

Pardon a little unsolicited constructive criticism. That's where you lose credibility....

(Lose credibility on these boards, and what have you got?)

You're fine when you talk up yourself and your candidate. Normal and expected. Then you step over that line.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #86 on: February 08, 2016, 10:39:44 pm »

Pardon a little unsolicited constructive criticism. That's where you lose credibility....

(Lose credibility on these boards, and what have you got?)

You're fine when you talk up yourself and your candidate. Normal and expected. Then you step over that line.


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Offline EdinVA

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #87 on: February 08, 2016, 10:43:42 pm »
You appear to be obsessed with only seeing one aspect of Trump. I see the one guy speaking directly about the problems with illegal immigrant criminals, and muslim terrorists coming into our country.

And I see the one guy speaking directly about our trade balance, loss of jobs to other countries, and matters like that. So do many other good, hard working Americans.

That bothers you less than his personality, or style?

I guess everyone is so tuned into the politically correct speak that they do not know how to react to strong personalities and the direct approach to handling issues.
That is why no one is ever responsible for anything, nothing ever works and nothing ever gets corrected. it is anti-PC to blame someone.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #88 on: February 08, 2016, 10:45:51 pm »
You appear to be obsessed with only seeing one aspect of Trump. I see the one guy speaking directly about the problems with illegal immigrant criminals, and muslim terrorists coming into our country.

And I see the one guy speaking directly about our trade balance, loss of jobs to other countries, and matters like that. So do many other good, hard working Americans.

That bothers you less than his personality, or style?

His ideas don't bother me so much as his temperament does.   Not "personality", not "style".   His temperament - his holding of grudges, his mercurial temper, his unfiltered mouth spewing insults at all comers, his willingness to ditch principle for expediency - are what make him dangerous. 

If immigration's your big issue, then thank Trump for raising the issue but cast your vote for someone who won't start a flippin' war his first month in office. 
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #89 on: February 08, 2016, 10:55:07 pm »
I will add - the other canard that the moderates like to float is the Karl Rove school of thinking that if we don't be moderate and compromising, and nominate such candidates we will lose. Look however at the record.

For President, Ford was moderate and lost. Reagan was conservative and won. HW Bush compromised on taxes and was thrown out. Bob Dole lost. W Bush barely won, and lost the Congress decidedly during his term of 'compassionate conservatism'. He also didn't fight the Democrats much. McCain lost. Romney lost.

When we've been bold, we've won. The '94 Gingrich win. We did similar in '10. We shut down the govt and it didn't affect us. We made noise like we were going to do something in '14, and we won.

Except we did nothing, and now we are falling out of favor again. The facts are at odds with the Karl Rove fantasy that's been pushed on us for 20+ years.

The moderates need to get in touch with the times. They are tin-eared and wandering in the desert.

A few comments.  When Gingrich won the House his popularity was high and his accomplishment was reform of the welfare system...working with the other side and with Clinton.  When he challenged Clinton and the government was shut down, his popularity and that of the Republicans went down.

Reagan was a national security conservative, but was anything but a fiscal conservative, doubling the national debt while cutting taxes.  The '14 congressional elections turned away from the TP conservatives to elect more mainstream conservatives.

Ford had the Nixon pardon clinging to him, and ran a less than sterling campaign.  Still as a moderate with Dole as a running mate, the election was quite close.  What those on the right have never been able to adequately explain is that if the public wouldn't elect mainstream conservatives like McCain, Dole, Romney and GHW Bush because they weren't "conservative" enough, why would those potential conservative voters shift to the left and elect liberals? 

Disapproval of Congress is only explained by virtue of what the right wants to see.  Democrats for the most part want Congress to work more with the president; Republicans want far more pushback.  Patterns of spending, immigration, gay marriage, foreign policy, gun control, are all issues that each side wants Congress to take opposite actions on.  Democrats are generally more supportive of their congressional leaders than are Republicans.  Perhaps the one issue most agree on is the inaction by Congress to pass appropriations bills until the last week in September. 

But Republicans need to honestly look at what most Americans want not only with respect to the specific issues, but also a willingness to negotiate and compromise to get major legislation passed.  Constant filibusters and refusals to schedule floor debates are neither in the public interest nor do they promote public approval.  In October 2001 approval of Congress was 84%.  Today it's 16%.  In 2009 self-described conservatives had a 20 point lead over self-described liberals in the Nation.  Today it's about even.  And whether we like it or not, the people don't move their ideology from conservative to liberal simply because the Republican Party isn't conservative enough.
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Offline ArneFufkin

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #90 on: February 08, 2016, 11:05:24 pm »
A few comments.  When Gingrich won the House his popularity was high and his accomplishment was reform of the welfare system...working with the other side and with Clinton.  When he challenged Clinton and the government was shut down, his popularity and that of the Republicans went down.

Reagan was a national security conservative, but was anything but a fiscal conservative, doubling the national debt while cutting taxes.  The '14 congressional elections turned away from the TP conservatives to elect more mainstream conservatives.

Ford had the Nixon pardon clinging to him, and ran a less than sterling campaign.  Still as a moderate with Dole as a running mate, the election was quite close.  What those on the right have never been able to adequately explain is that if the public wouldn't elect mainstream conservatives like McCain, Dole, Romney and GHW Bush because they weren't "conservative" enough, why would those potential conservative voters shift to the left and elect liberals? 

Disapproval of Congress is only explained by virtue of what the right wants to see.  Democrats for the most part want Congress to work more with the president; Republicans want far more pushback.  Patterns of spending, immigration, gay marriage, foreign policy, gun control, are all issues that each side wants Congress to take opposite actions on.  Democrats are generally more supportive of their congressional leaders than are Republicans.  Perhaps the one issue most agree on is the inaction by Congress to pass appropriations bills until the last week in September. 

But Republicans need to honestly look at what most Americans want not only with respect to the specific issues, but also a willingness to negotiate and compromise to get major legislation passed.  Constant filibusters and refusals to schedule floor debates are neither in the public interest nor do they promote public approval.  In October 2001 approval of Congress was 84%.  Today it's 16%.  In 2009 self-described conservatives had a 20 point lead over self-described liberals in the Nation.  Today it's about even.  And whether we like it or not, the people don't move their ideology from conservative to liberal simply because the Republican Party isn't conservative enough.

Great comments.

I am one of the few it seems in Webville who is thrilled that Paul Ryan is Speaker.  He has promised to restore regular order to the appropriations process:  13 separate bills all voted upon and hammered out into a REAL spending plan in a conference committee with McConnell's often dysfunctional Senate. 

That will solve a lot of the problems as it's far harder to throw pork into the budget in this process (although it has always happened - especially under Stevens and Young) than these annual, 11th hour CRs that nobody debates and nobody can track.  Always under the needless Dem/Media distortion of a looming "shutdown".
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 11:07:18 pm by ArneFufkin »

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #91 on: February 08, 2016, 11:07:03 pm »
...

I am one of the few it seems in Webville who is thrilled that Paul Ryan is Speaker.  ...

Arne, you're almost one of a kind!

Offline ArneFufkin

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2016, 11:10:34 pm »
Arne, you're almost one of a kind!

LOL

I like him.  I can't help it.

He destroyed Biden in those debates.  He's a conservative from Wisconsin.  I like guys like Walker, Ryan, Sensenbrenner etc.  They're smart and courageous.

Offline ArneFufkin

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2016, 11:27:28 pm »
Trump's no less dangerous.

What I envision with a Trump tenure would be similar to the Jesse Ventura reign here in Minnesota:  Ongoing drama, contention but nothing too good or bad ever happening.

It's an unsavory deja vu for me because I see some of the same dynamics playing into this Trump fascination that I did in that MN election.  Folks were tired of Skip Humphrey and Norm Coleman and said "whatever". 

Minnesota was in limbo -  Jesse in constant war with the press and both the IR and DFL - and nothing really got done but a lot of Ventura ego and petulance.

That's the way I see a Trump Administration.  He's not going to have Mexico pay for a border wall or deport all illegals.  He's not going to take on Putin.  He's a con artist.  He'll just enjoy the fame of office and dramatically announce he's not running for re-election in an orchestrated huff.

Clinton and Sanders would destroy America.  Strategically, systematically.  Trump is far preferable to me.

This election is ... HYOOOOOGE.   The makeup of SCOTUS is hanging in the balance.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 11:30:28 pm by ArneFufkin »

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #94 on: February 09, 2016, 12:55:30 am »
Great comments.

I am one of the few it seems in Webville who is thrilled that Paul Ryan is Speaker.  He has promised to restore regular order to the appropriations process:  13 separate bills all voted upon and hammered out into a REAL spending plan in a conference committee with McConnell's often dysfunctional Senate. 

That will solve a lot of the problems as it's far harder to throw pork into the budget in this process (although it has always happened - especially under Stevens and Young) than these annual, 11th hour CRs that nobody debates and nobody can track.  Always under the needless Dem/Media distortion of a looming "shutdown".

Thanks Arne.  I do believe it would go a long way toward the House earning its salaries.  It won't resolve all the issues like Obamacare and its future, but should at least funnel a number of them into the appropriate spending packages, early enough.  The downside of course will be the transparency, which if a bill is successful will show the compromises made.  That would be an automatic surrender to some on both sides of the aisle. The appeal of Trump and Cruz demonstrate the desire to take no prisoners during either the authorization or appropriations processes.  Probably explains the popularity in Congress of the CRs and the omnibus packages.  Get it all out of the way, take your lumps and hope the political junkies forget after a while.  For most of those in the conservative community Ryan started off on the wrong foot, but I hope your enthusiasm for him is justified. :pondering:
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2016, 01:24:02 am »
Arne, you're almost one of a kind!

Almost .  .  . I'm a big fan of Paul Ryan, too.   Get him teamed up with a Republican President so the focus can become policy making instead of obstruction and - bam, instant action.

Kasich has been saying lately he'll make heads spin with the stuff he'll propose in his first 100 days.  He can do so -  with the assistance of Paul Ryan.    If Kasich is the nominee, the complexion of the fall campaign changes.   It won't be the Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla scrum that Cruz/Clinton or Trump/Clinton would be.   It would be about restoring competence and principle to the White House,  with a renewed focus on concrete actions to enhance liberty and national security and promote ECONOMIC GROWTH.  A positive campaign raises all partisan boats,  an especially important consideration when the number of GOP seats on the line in November is much higher than normal.   

With Kasich at the top of the ticket,  I can see him and Ryan collaborating on a new Contract with America,  promising not confrontation but results.

It amazes me that with an unprecedented chance for a historic triumph - GOP control of the White House and Congress - we seem determined to nominate the most polarizing candidate we can, sure to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.   


 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 01:27:44 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2016, 01:28:34 am »
Free Vulcan wrote above:
"Rubio got put on the grill and he withered a bit."

Shrank like a spider on a hot stove...  ;)

(stole that from Jack Crabbe in "Little Big Man")

Offline EdinVA

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2016, 02:00:37 am »
Almost .  .  . I'm a big fan of Paul Ryan, too.   Get him teamed up with a Republican President so the focus can become policy making instead of obstruction and - bam, instant action.


Anyone can be successful in the absence of adversity... There is nothing ryan can do to convince me he nothing but an opportunist.
Instant action?  Like higher taxes, larger government?  No thanks.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2016, 04:10:16 am »
What I envision with a Trump tenure would be similar to the Jesse Ventura reign here in Minnesota:  Ongoing drama, contention but nothing too good or bad ever happening.

It's an unsavory deja vu for me because I see some of the same dynamics playing into this Trump fascination that I did in that MN election.  Folks were tired of Skip Humphrey and Norm Coleman and said "whatever". 

Minnesota was in limbo -  Jesse in constant war with the press and both the IR and DFL - and nothing really got done but a lot of Ventura ego and petulance.

That's the way I see a Trump Administration.  He's not going to have Mexico pay for a border wall or deport all illegals.  He's not going to take on Putin.  He's a con artist.  He'll just enjoy the fame of office and dramatically announce he's not running for re-election in an orchestrated huff.

Clinton and Sanders would destroy America.  Strategically, systematically.  Trump is far preferable to me.

This election is ... HYOOOOOGE.   The makeup of SCOTUS is hanging in the balance.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

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Re: Rubio's Tough Night
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2016, 09:54:53 pm »
Almost by definition,  a governor can't be an ideological purist.  He must lead,  address real problems, assemble coalitions.  But a governor - especially one whose experience is as all-encompassing as Kasich's - can make a great President, especially if the GOP can retain Congress.

That's the real issue there - if the GOP can regain the Presidency while retaining Congress, the conservative agenda can advance.  A nominee like Trump or Cruz will not only lose the White House, but will also be a down-ticket disaster for the rest of the party.

Nominate Kasich, and sunny days are ahead.  Nominate Trump or Cruz, and the conservative movement and all its current leverage and influence will be eradicated.

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