Trump brands Cruz a 'nasty guy'

[jmyrlefuller]

Can you point to a single instance where the SCOTUS has ever applied the term "natural born citizen" to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”?

I'll wait!

Can you point to a single instance in the U.S. Constitution or active federal law that REQUIRES a natural born citizen to be born in the United States?

[Bigun]

Can you point to a single instance in the U.S. Constitution or active federal law that REQUIRES a natural born citizen to be born in the United States?

It has never been any other way!

The main authority for the original meaning of "natural born" is William Blackstone, in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, Volume II, edited by St. George Tucker, a Founder, published in 1803, especially Chapter 10:

As to the qualifications of members to sit at this board: any natural born subject of England is capable of being a member of the privy council; taking the proper oaths for security of the government, and the test for security of the church. But, in order to prevent any persons under foreign attachments from insinuating themselves into this important trust, as happened in the reign of king William in many instances, it is enacted by the act of settlement,l that no person born out of the dominions of the crown of England, unless born of English parents, even though naturalized by parliament, shall be capable of being of the privy council.
 ... the king has also the prerogative of conferring privileges 53 upon private persons. Such as granting place or precedence to any of his subjects, as shall seem good to his royal wisdom:g or such as converting aliens,54 or persons born out of the king's dominions, into denizens; whereby some very considerable privileges of natural-born subjects are conferred upon them. Such also is the prerogative of erecting corporations;55 whereby a number of private persons are united and knit together, and enjoy many liberties, powers, and immunities in their politic capacity, which they were utterly incapable of in their natural. Of aliens, denizens, natural-born, and naturalized subjects, I shall speak more largely in a subsequent chapter;
The first and most obvious division of the people is into aliens and natural-born subjects. Natural-born subjects are such as are born within the dominions of the crown of England;
... the prince is always under a constant tie to protect his natural-born subjects, at all times and in all countries, for this reason their allegiance due to him is equally universal and permanent. But, on the other hand, as the prince affords his protection to an alien, only during his residence in this realm, the allegiance of an alien is confined (in point of time) to the duration of such his residence, and (in point of locality) to the dominions of the British empire.
Thus allegiance, then, both express and implied, is the duty of all the king's subjects, under the distinctions here laid down, of local and temporary, or universal and perpetual. Their rights are also distinguishable by the same criterions of time and locality; natural-born subjects having a great variety of rights, which they acquire by being born within the king's ligeance, and can never forfeit by any distance of place or time, but only by their own misbehaviour:
The children of aliens, born here in England, are generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such.10 In which the constitution of France differs from ours; for there, by their jus albinatus, if a child be born of foreign parents, it is an alien.c
St. George Tucker, the editor, says this in a footnote:

Persons naturalized according to these acts, are entitled to all the rights of natural born citizens, except, first, that they cannot be elected as representatives in congress until seven years, thereafter. Secondly, nor can they be elected senators of the United States, until nine years thereafter. Thirdly, they are forever incapable of being chosen to the office of president of the United States. Persons naturalized before the adoption of the constitution, it is presumed, have all the capacities of natural born citizens. See C. U. S. Art. 1, 2.

http://www.constitution.org/abus/pres_elig.htm

[jmyrlefuller]

You know what?

Fine. You guys believe what you want to believe, and when you end up with Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders as your President AGAIN and Obama sits behind the throne still dictating policy, and our country as we know it continues to erode into an amalgamation of European socialism and third world poverty, then maybe you will understand.

Ted Cruz wasn't even my first choice. As many of you know, I was a Walker supporter. But of the remaining people in the field, Cruz is the last acceptable choice. Our republic is DYING, and we're sitting here picking an argument over whether someone born outside the U.S. with U.S. citizenship can be a natural born citizen. Where does that get us?

What good does any of this do? Haven't we already lost enough?

[jmyrlefuller]

The main authority for the original meaning of "natural born" is William Blackstone, in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, Volume II, edited by St. George Tucker, a Founder, published in 1803, especially Chapter 10:

I SAID U.S. LAW, (edited for language)!

[Jazzhead]

I guess it all boils down to how dark your vision is.  For some, the culture is under full assault,  and for them "nasty", uncompromising Ted Cruz is like catnip. 

 But there are some of us who really just want to get the economy moving again.    Cut taxes,  cut regulation,  reform entitlements,  be good stewards again of an economy pointed with an eye single toward GROWTH!

Those of us in the latter group are going to be disappointed in the choices this year,  because everyone else, it seems, wants to go to (political) war. 

Don't get too down on the virtues of peacetime, folks.   

[Bigun]

I SAID U.S. LAW, (edited for language)!

The work I quoted is the version edited by St. George Tucker to INCORPORATE the U.S. Constitution and Laws!

BLACKSTONE'S COMMENTARIES:
WITH
NOTES OF REFERENCE,
TO
THE CONSTITUTION AND LAWS,
OF THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES;
AND OF THE
COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA.
IN FIVE VOLUMES.
WITH AN APPENDIX TO EACH VOLUME,
CONTAINING
SHORT TRACTS UPON SUCH SUBJECTS AS APPEARED NECESSARY
TO FORM A CONNECTED
VIEW OF THE LAWS OF VIRGINIA,
AS A MEMBER OF THE FEDERAL UNION.
BY ST. GEORGE TUCKER,
PROFESSOR OF LAW, IN THE UNIVERSITY OF WILLIAM AND MARY, AND
ONE OF THE JUDGES OF THE GENERAL COURT IN VIRGINIA.
PHILADELPHIA:
PUBLISHED BY WILLIAM YOUNG BIRCH, AND ABRAHAM SMALL,
NO. 17, SOUTH SECOND-STREET.
ROBERT CARR, PRINTER.
1803.

[katzenjammer]

Can you point to a single instance in the U.S. Constitution or active federal law that REQUIRES a natural born citizen to be born in the United States?

J. Myrle, I am sorry if I was a bit curt in some of my replies to you earlier in the thread.  (Believe me, for as much frustration as you may feel reading some of this discussion, it doesn't outpace the frustration that some of us feel, that take the time to type in well researched, fact-based discussion points on this topic, only to have them ignored or irrationally shat upon, thread after thread.  )

I understand your more generalized frustration and anger (I saw your subsequent post) and agree with you on much of it.

If you (or anyone else) are interested in a very well researched piece, written in understandable, everyday modern English, that explains your specific questions on the Natural Law origin of the Natural Born Citizen construct, I suggest this work by Publius Huldah.

[Bigun]

You know what?

Fine. You guys believe what you want to believe, and when you end up with Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders as your President AGAIN and Obama sits behind the throne still dictating policy, and our country as we know it continues to erode into an amalgamation of European socialism and third world poverty, then maybe you will understand.

Ted Cruz wasn't even my first choice. As many of you know, I was a Walker supporter. But of the remaining people in the field, Cruz is the last acceptable choice. Our republic is DYING, and we're sitting here picking an argument over whether someone born outside the U.S. with U.S. citizenship can be a natural born citizen. Where does that get us?

What good does any of this do? Haven't we already lost enough?

This isn't about any particular candidate or any particular moment in history Jimmy! This is about the Constitution only! 

The founders were learned men and wrote Article II Section 1 Clause 5 as they did for a VERY good reason and that reason is just as important today as it was then! Perhaps even more so!

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

[katzenjammer]

This isn't about any particular candidate or any particular moment in history Jimmy! This is about the Constitution only!

The founders were learned men and wrote Article II Section 1 Clause 5 as they did for a VERY good reason and that reason is just as important today as it was then! Perhaps even more so!

(And put me down for the "even more so!" choice!)   

[libertybele]

Quote:

   "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."


...hmmm seems like I missed the words ..."OR" a Citizen of the United States.  With those words, clearly Cruz is eligible.

[Bigun]

Quote:

   "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."


...hmmm seems like I missed the words ..."OR" a Citizen of the United States.  With those words, clearly Cruz is eligible.

If he was a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution yes!

[Sanguine]

Now, see, y'all are so busy arguing, you missed that little gem from Jazzhead.

[Bigun]

Now, see, y'all are so busy arguing, you missed that little gem from Jazzhead.

Nope! Didn't miss it at all but FACT are still FACTS and will forever remain such!