Ted Cruz mocks FRENZIED rabid tweetstorm from the Trump!!

[Mod1]

The "admonishment" was directed to everyone, not you specifically, Carling. We would appreciate it if everyone refrained from calling each other liars or any other epithets. Let's discuss the issues - like grownups.

[Carling]

The "admonishment" was directed to everyone, not you specifically, Carling. We would appreciate it if everyone refrained from calling each other liars or any other epithets. Let's discuss the issues - like grownups.

Musiclady just lied when she said Trump has "repeatedly supported" single-payer.

That is not true, which factually makes it a lie.  If calling liars "Liars" is against what an adult does on a GOP site, then no wonder TRUMP/Cruz/Carson have 70% of the combined GOP polling at this point while the GOP establishment has to resort to lies on a voting base that sees right through those lies.

[musiclady]

Musiclady just lied when she said Trump has "repeatedly supported" single-payer.

That is not true, which factually makes it a lie.

Stop calling me a liar.

[mountaineer]

Musiclady just lied when she said Trump has "repeatedly supported" single-payer.

That is not true, which factually makes it a lie.  If calling liars "Liars" is against what an adult does on a GOP site, then no wonder TRUMP/Cruz/Carson have 70% of the combined GOP polling at this point while the GOP establishment has to resort to lies on a voting base that sees right through those lies.

Any chance you could just give it a rest?

[katzenjammer]

I've made mention of this before, and alicewonders brought it up earlier in the thread.

When I first wrote about the disappointment that many are experiencing thus far in the primary process, I used the word profound as a modifier.  And I don't think that it is hyperbolic in this case.

I didn't experience it because the only person that I was seriously considering before this thing got going was Ted Cruz.  But I can understand it, because I have experienced it in the past (but perhaps not as profoundly because we've never been Trumped before!).

(I'll save my reasons for why I support Don Trump, at the present time, for another thread.)

Because of the profound disappointment, I see a bit more of an edge to some posts, and a bit of a willingness to "cut corners" on accuracy.  Not at all unexpected, if you think about it.

As much as some of us that take the time to try to engage in a meaningful, rational discussion on various topics, may like it to be at times, this is not a (formal) debating society.  No one is ever going to be considered the "winner" here.  No one is ever going to be disqualified for "cheating."  It is an informal discussion forum, that happens to be blessed with a lot of very intelligent members with deep experience, in many facets of life.  It is also blessed with an owner that is very tolerant, and trusting of adults to do the right thing, more often than not.

I always take the view that the posts speak for themselves.  People here are intelligent enough to follow the discussion and make their own conclusions on the validity and soundness of each post presented.  I doubt that we are ever going to see many instances where anyone is going to accept the mantle of "liar," at least not publicly.  We can each think that we've made a case so clear that "QED" is all that needs to be appended to our argument's conclusion.  But the fact of the matter is that there is no professor or judge that will stamp our card with "WINNER!"

And beyond all of that, there is very little that any of us can do in a forum like this to either "stop" or promote any given campaign.  We probably all have a better chance of having a substantive impact by donating time/money to the candidate of our choosing. 

As I said a week or so ago, I personally don't care which candidate any one here supports, or doesn't.  And it is never my goal to try to affect that in any way by my presence and participation here.  I engage to read the opinions of other members and the facts that they bring to the discussion, and attempt to reciprocate to the best of my abilities.

So as someone that is as guilty as any one else of yammering on and on (ETA: and can go off the deep end from time to time!!), and trying to make sure "my" point is understood,  I think if we just relax a bit here (curse the TeeVee like I do!!  lol), and watch it play out together, we will all be better served!!

Just my few thoughts on things....

[alicewonders]

Carling has posted the entire Trump quote, which explains his stance on single-payer (it won't work here, HE said).  Trump wants people to have competitive choices in the PRIVATE insurance market that crosses all state lines.  He said that in the quote which has been posted right here in this very thread - as it has been posted elsewhere where these very same people saw it too. 

But yet, the storyline persists that Trump wants single-payer - we are even told that it doesn't matter what he SAYS in this quote from his campaign. 

Even as we can read with our own eyes that is not what he said when you look at the quote in it's entirety. 

There is nothing you can do to convince people that don't want to face the truth of it, that want to keep pushing the Trump single-payer meme.  How can you have a rational conversation with people that do that?  People that say rationality is so important to them?  That is not rational.

I'm tired of this constant having to defend the truth.

I'm tired of people I have respected ignoring the truth that is right there on the page.

Some people just read the headlines and comment on that without ever reading the article. 

Some people just accept what they read without going to the source itself to see if it is legitimate, biased, edited, or if the headline actually has anything to do with the story. 

Some people cannot say anything good about Donald Trump even when he says something we all agree on.

So tired of it.  Will be glad when we get a few primaries under our belt and we can see who we need to start getting behind and supporting.  Tired of fighting among friends.  It's gotten so old.

I'm done in this thread, just talking to the wind.  This is time spent I will never get back. 



 

[HAPPY2BME]

[Jazzhead]

Musiclady just lied when she said Trump has "repeatedly supported" single-payer.

You're quibbling about the meaning of the word "supported", and being quite a jerk about it.   There's no question that Trump has repeatedly had very flattering things to say about single payer, suggesting that people in countries with single payer love it.

Ask yourself - and try to be honest -  Could Trump as President be persuaded to support single payor?   Could Ted Cruz?   If you truly oppose single payer,  how can you ignore Trump's past gushing about it?     

Music Lady deserves an apology, IMO.   

[musiclady]

You're quibbling about the meaning of the word "supported", and being quite a jerk about it.   There's no question that Trump has repeatedly had very flattering things to say about single payer, suggesting that people in countries with single payer love it.

Ask yourself - and try to be honest -  Could Trump as President be persuaded to support single payor?   Could Ted Cruz?   If you truly oppose single payer,  how can you ignore Trump's past gushing about it?     

Music Lady deserves an apology, IMO.

I don't need an apology.

I just want him to stop calling me a liar.

I'm not a liar, and everyone here knows it.

[libertybele]

Any chance you could just give it a rest?

I second the 'emotion'.   

[Formerly Once-Ler]

You're 100% wrong.  Either you're ignorant, or you're lying.  If you care to actually educate yourself...

Carling.  If you want to have a friendly disagreement and even persuade try this...

Instead of saying "You're 100% wrong," say "that statement is incorrect," and make your case.  Avoid the word "you" if possible because that word makes people defensive immediately.  If one wants to be charitable, one might even preface one's argument with "I can understand how someone might interpret Trump's words that way, but..."

Never tell someone they are ignorant.  Say they are mistaken, or they have overlooked the data you present.  This is not just for their benefit, but yours as well as it is damaging to one's reputation to insult people who are well respected. 

Never call someone a liar. period.

Now as to Trump's wholehearted support for single payer universal healthcare there is video all over the internet of Trump saying he will replace Obamacare with government funded healthcare and everybody will be covered.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

[Formerly Once-Ler]

I thought Cruz's apology to NY was awesome, and his response to Trump's tweets is fantastic also.

Go Cruz!

[Carling]

Stop calling me a liar.

Stop being a liar and I will.

[Carling]

Any chance you could just give it a rest?

Zero chance unless the lies stop.  Do you like being lied to when the actual facts have been presented and not at all refuted?

[Carling]

Yet again none of the LIARS whom I used to respect will even acknowledge Trump (who I don't support) and his actual healthcare words.

[musiclady]

I thought Cruz's apology to NY was awesome, and his response to Trump's tweets is fantastic also.

Go Cruz!

Do you have a link for it, Once-ler?

I'd love to see it.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Yet again none of the LIARS whom I used to respect will even acknowledge Trump (who I don't support) and his actual healthcare words.

If you don't support Trump why do you keep defending him from the lying liars who lie?

Carling.  Trump says many contradictory things, and you pick and choose what you want to hear, just as I do.

Here is what I hear.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-supports-national-health-care-2011-4

"We must have universal healthcare," wrote Trump. "I'm a conservative on most issues but a liberal on this one. We should not hear so many stories of families ruined by healthcare expenses."

The goal of health care reform, wrote Trump, should be a system that looks a lot like Canada. "Doctors might be paid less than they are now, as is the case in Canada, but they would be able to treat more patients because of the reduction in their paperwork," he writes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inQmf96SYQ

www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2015/09/28/donald-trump-on-obamacare-on-60-minutes-everybodys-got-to-be-covered-and-the-governments-gonna-pay-for-it/

It suffices to say that Donald Trump has been all over the place on health care reform. Last month, at the first Republican presidential debate, Trump argued that socialized medicine in Scotland “works incredibly well.” At the same time, Trump has said that Obamacare has “gotta go” and that he would “repeal and replace [it] something terrific.” But Trump has been light on details. Last night, on 60 Minutes, Trump elaborated on what his plan would look like.

Trump: ‘I am going to take care of everybody’

CBS’ Scott Pelley conducted the interview. “What’s your plan for Obamacare?” Pelley asked Trump. “Obamacare’s going to be repealed and replaced,” said Trump. “Obamacare is a disaster if you look at what’s going on with premiums where they’re up 40, 50, 55 percent.” Pelley followed up:

    Pelley: How do you fix it?

    Trump: There’s many different ways, by the way. Everybody’s got to be covered. This is an un-Republican thing for me to say because a lot of times they say, “No, no, the lower 25 percent that can’t afford private. But–”

    Pelley: Universal health care.

    Trump: I am going to take care of everybody. I don’t care if it costs me votes or not. Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now.

    Pelley: The uninsured person is going to be taken care of. How? How?

    Trump: They’re going to be taken care of. I would make a deal with existing hospitals to take care of people. And, you know what, if this is probably—

    Pelley: Make a deal? Who pays for it?

    Trump: —the government’s gonna pay for it. But we’re going to save so much money on the other side. But for the most it’s going to be a private plan and people are going to be able to go out and negotiate great plans with lots of different competition with lots of competitors with great companies and they can have their doctors, they can have plans, they can have everything.

So to sum up government is going to pay for it.  Everybody is covered.  Trump likes Scotland and Canada's system.

I am sad to be such a lying liar who lies by quoting Trump's actual healthcare words.

[libertybele]

" We must have universal health care. I’m a conservative on most issues but a liberal on health. It is an unacceptable but accurate fact that the number of uninsured Americans has risen to 42 million. Working out detailed plans will take time. But the goal should be clear: Our people are our greatest asset. We must take care of our own. We must have universal healthcare.

Our objective [should be] to make reforms for the moment and, longer term, to find an equivalent of the single-payer plan that is affordable, well-administered, and provides freedom of choice. Possible? The good news is, yes. There is already a system in place-the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program-that can act as a guide for all healthcare reform. It operates through a centralized agency that offers considerable range of choice. While this is a government program, it is also very much market-based. It allows 620 private insurance companies to compete for this market. Once a year participants can choose from plans which vary in benefits and costs.
Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.206-208 & 218 , Jul 2, 2000

http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Donald_Trump_Health_Care.htm

[musiclady]

Gotta put Carling on IGNORE.

He's really off the deep end.  Yesterday he tried to invoke sinkspur in order to pick a fight with me, and I fended him off.

Today he's completely lost it.

It's sad to see it happen.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Do you have a link for it, Once-ler?

I'd love to see it.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/01/15/ted-cruz-issues-apology-response-new-york-values-debate

 Republican presidential contender Ted Cruz issued an "apology" today in response to the outrage many New Yorkers expressed at his "New York values" comments during the Fox Business Network GOP debate.

After Cruz tried to attack Donald Trump and play up the cultural divide with his comments, Trump, Hillary Clinton, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio and others all called for the Texas senator to apologize - but they probably weren't expecting this.

In two separate interviews Friday, the Texas senator offered a backhanded apology, saying, "I apologize to the millions of New Yorkers who've been let down by liberal politicians."

"I apologize for the working men and women of New York who are denied jobs — jobs that have been plentiful just south of Pennsylvania — because Gov. Cuomo bans fracking. I apologize to all the pro-life, pro-marriage, pro-Second Amendment New Yorkers who Gov. Cuomo brazenly told have no place in the state of New York because that’s not who New Yorkers are," Cruz said on "The Sean Hannity Show."

Speaking to a separate group of reporters, Cruz also said, “I apologize to all of the African American children who Mayor de Blasio tried to throw out of their charter schools that were providing a life line to the American dream."

"And I apologize to all the cops and firefighters and 9/11 heroes who had no choice but to stand and turn their backs on Mayor de Blasio because Mayor de Blasio over and over again stands with the looters and criminals rather than the brave men and women [in] blue.”

[Formerly Once-Ler]

" We must have universal health care. I’m a conservative on most issues but a liberal on health. It is an unacceptable but accurate fact that the number of uninsured Americans has risen to 42 million. Working out detailed plans will take time. But the goal should be clear: Our people are our greatest asset. We must take care of our own. We must have universal healthcare.

Our objective [should be] to make reforms for the moment and, longer term, to find an equivalent of the single-payer plan that is affordable, well-administered, and provides freedom of choice. Possible? The good news is, yes. There is already a system in place-the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program-that can act as a guide for all healthcare reform. It operates through a centralized agency that offers considerable range of choice. While this is a government program, it is also very much market-based. It allows 620 private insurance companies to compete for this market. Once a year participants can choose from plans which vary in benefits and costs.
Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.206-208 & 218 , Jul 2, 2000

http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Donald_Trump_Health_Care.htm

Thank you liberty.

[libertybele]

That was an interesting "apology".

Another 'brilliant' move by Cruz.  With that comment he just 'Trumped' Trump! 

[musiclady]

Another 'brilliant' move by Cruz.  With that comment he just 'Trumped' Trump!

I LOVE it!

[Right_in_Virginia]

Ask yourself  Could Trump as President be persuaded to support single payor?   Could Ted Cruz?   

Ted Cruz, like 99% of all establishment politicians, will be a captive to what his millionaire donors and superpacs want of him.  Best to hope insurance company money does not find its way into Cruz's pocket.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Gotta put Carling on IGNORE.

He's really off the deep end.  Yesterday he tried to invoke sinkspur in order to pick a fight with me, and I fended him off.

Today he's completely lost it.

It's sad to see it happen.

I honestly really like Carling.  He is very passionate, and very aggressive.  He has found his mission and he won't back down.  If he was on your side you would be cheering him.  He is a very smart fellow, but he has it in his head that conservatives who won't throw away their heartfelt principles, in what we see as a stupid and futile gesture against the Establishment, and jump on board the Trump train...well we MUST be the enemy.  It's black and white, and crystal clear that you and he are on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum...and yet you both say you prefer Cruz(?)

In a few months we will have a clear picture of the electorate and some people will be eating crow.  I hope it is not me (again), but if it is, I hope that I can continue debate and discuss the issues of the day with smart, insightful, passionate Trump supporters like DC, Myst, alicewonders, Carling and others with a clear conscious and the belief that while I know Trump and his supporters are an obsession with me, I have tried very hard(and sometimes failed) not to personally insult them or their opinions.

I saw alice's post uppage and you can just feel her frustration and sadness.  She's not frustrated with Carling.  She's frustrated with you and me.  With Carling it is anger, and anger makes people say things they secretly regret.  This election is tearing very good people apart.  You should understand this, and try to empathize and embrace it as much as you can, because in the end we will all likely be voting for the same candidate in Nov. regardless of who wins the primaries.