Author Topic: Does Anyone Believe Trump Seriously Cares about Whether Ted Cruz Is a Natural-Born Citizen?.... By Jonah Goldberg  (Read 1386 times)

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http://www.nationalreview.com/node/429865/print

 Does Anyone Believe Trump Seriously Cares about Whether Ted Cruz Is a Natural-Born Citizen?
By Jonah Goldberg — January 16, 2016

EDITOR’S NOTE: The following is Jonah Goldberg’s weekly “news”letter, the G-File. Subscribe here to get the G-File delivered to your inbox on Fridays.

Dear Reader (including those of you born in Canada),

I guess we should start there. I find this birther stuff to be a lot like women’s prison movies: compelling, entertaining, and totally ridiculous.

Other than the presidency, there’s no place in American life where the distinction between “naturalized” and “natural-born” citizenship matters.

But imagine if it did? Imagine that your American-born mother just happened to give birth to you in Canada or Belize while on vacation. Your American-born mom and dad bring you home days later and raise you exactly as they would have had they been in Cleveland the whole time. Now imagine there are also all sorts of jobs you are barred from having. Not only can you not be president, but you can’t be, say, a chiropodist or an embalmer. Pick your restrictions: You can’t go to certain colleges or you can’t get the best ESPN bundle. Americans born abroad can’t buy basset hounds. Unless you were born here, you can’t get cheese on your hamburger. Whatever. It really doesn’t matter.

If that were the case the Constitution would be amended — either properly or through interpretation — to get rid of this distinction instantly (which means this would have happened centuries before the invention of ESPN, but you get the point).

My point is simple: This issue remains unsettled because it matters so little.

Most of us don’t expect to be president of the United States, so what do we care about whether or not we — or our kids — are “natural born citizens”? That provision in the Constitution was put there to prevent foreign-born characters from being influenced from abroad.

While I am certainly open to theories about how Ted Cruz is the Manitoban Candidate, hiding in plain sight until he can impose the metric system on our children and make us all passive-aggressively polite, my hunch is that’s not the case.

If any of us were actually affected by this distinction in a meaningful way, we’d have gotten rid of it a long, long, long time ago. Personally, I don’t think it should be in the Constitution — at least not anymore. But I’d hardly go through the bother of taking it out either.

It seems obvious to me that Ted Cruz is a natural-born citizen, and if the Constitution really says otherwise, I think the Constitution is wrong. But just because the Constitution is wrong doesn’t mean it loses its authority.

Even less plausible than Cruz’s not being a natural-born citizen: that Donald Trump actually cares about this or any of the other attendant constitutional niceties. Personally, I think it is hilarious the way Trump pretends he’s only raising the issue out of “concern” for “Ted” and the GOP.

I’m honestly curious if anyone, anywhere, actually believes Trump is being sincere. This is a different question from whether there are people who think he’s right. I know those people exist. But does anyone actually think Trump’s explanation for how he’s bringing up Ted’s “problem” to help Ted is genuine?

I’ll take my answer off the air.

continued
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Offline musiclady

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Quote
Even less plausible than Cruz’s not being a natural-born citizen: that Donald Trump actually cares about this or any of the other attendant constitutional niceties. Personally, I think it is hilarious the way Trump pretends he’s only raising the issue out of “concern” for “Ted” and the GOP.

That's been the ridiculous part of the discussion to me.  That Trump is pretending that he cares about Cruz by all of a sudden being concerned about Cruz' citizenship.

I wonder if Trump actually has read the Constitution?  Is there any evidence of that?  How often does he even talk about the Constitution?

Then there's Ted Cruz, who had it memorized by the time he was 13..........

I know a patriot when I see one.  Cruz is one.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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All this is....is Trump distracting Cruz and driving him nuts.

Like you'd do with a laser light and a cat.   :laugh:
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Offline musiclady

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All this is....is Trump distracting Cruz and driving him nuts.

Like you'd do with a laser light and a cat.   :laugh:

Unfortunately, there are those who will not vote for Cruz because of the deception of the cat.

Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline katzenjammer

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LOL.  Mr. Goldberg's article is so full of logical fallacies that I lost count about half way through.  It is sort of funny and sad at the same time to watch people flail at a topic that they apparently can't even begin to comprehend (although I doubt that is what is behind this silliness!).

And his topical question is equally ridiculous (and a logical fallacy in and of itself), it doesn't matter what Trump or anyone else "cares" about it.  Mr. Cruz's birth facts are what they are, because of choices made by his parents; and the Constitution says what it says in clause 5 of Section 1 of Article Two, because the Founders thought it necessary to include.

(Aside from the fact, I don't even think this guy can afford to buy pants!   :silly:)

Offline Bigun

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LOL.  Mr. Goldberg's article is so full of logical fallacies that I lost count about half way through.  It is sort of funny and sad at the same time to watch people flail at a topic that they apparently can't even begin to comprehend (although I doubt that is what is behind this silliness!).

And his topical question is equally ridiculous (and a logical fallacy in and of itself), it doesn't matter what Trump or anyone else "cares" about it.  Mr. Cruz's birth facts are what they are, because of choices made by his parents; and the Constitution says what it says in clause 5 of Section 1 of Article Two, because the Founders thought it necessary to include.

(Aside from the fact, I don't even think this guy can afford to buy pants!   :silly:)

God help this once great Republic!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline musiclady

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LOL.  Mr. Goldberg's article is so full of logical fallacies that I lost count about half way through.  It is sort of funny and sad at the same time to watch people flail at a topic that they apparently can't even begin to comprehend (although I doubt that is what is behind this silliness!).

And his topical question is equally ridiculous (and a logical fallacy in and of itself), it doesn't matter what Trump or anyone else "cares" about it.  Mr. Cruz's birth facts are what they are, because of choices made by his parents; and the Constitution says what it says in clause 5 of Section 1 of Article Two, because the Founders thought it necessary to include.

(Aside from the fact, I don't even think this guy can afford to buy pants!   :silly:)

It matters if a candidate's truthfulness matters.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline katzenjammer

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It matters if a candidate's truthfulness matters.

That is a totally separate issue from the topic at hand.  (The issue exists.  It matters not what you, I, or the man in the moon, care about it.)

Bringing up the question as to who may care about it, or not, is a very weak attempt at distracting from the facts.

In my opinion, all of these talking/writing heads would do better for whichever cause they are promoting, to just shut up about it and let it pass.  All of their fallacies, distortions, and distractions are just keeping it front and center.  Go figure...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 03:16:41 pm by katzenjammer »

Offline katzenjammer

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God help this once great Republic!

And protect us from the "Destroyers!"

Offline musiclady

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That is a totally separate issue from the topic at hand.  (The issue exists.  It matters not what you, I, or the man in the moon, care about it.)

Bringing up the question as to who may care about it, or not, is a very weak attempt at distracting from the facts.

In my opinion, all of these talking/writing heads would do better for whichever cause they are promoting, to just shut up about it and let it pass.  All of their fallacies, distortions, and distractions are just keeping it front and center.  Go figure...

Good point.

But the truth is that there are valid opinions on either side of the discussion, and Trump may or may not know that.

But, accomplished politician that he is (complete with lies and distortions), he made sure to make this an issue after Cruz took the lead.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Bigun

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It matters if a candidate's truthfulness matters.

The TRUTH in this matter has been lost long ago! But if you insist on it here is the unvarnished TRUTH!

Neither Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, or Donald Trump meet the Constitutional qualification of Natural Born Citizenship and neither does Barrack Hussein Obama !
 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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Good point.

But the truth is that there are valid opinions on either side of the discussion, and Trump may or may not know that.

But, accomplished politician that he is (complete with lies and distortions), he made sure to make this an issue after Cruz took the lead.

I agree with all of the above, ml, except for the lies part.  I have been following his campaign and the primary season fairly closely, I am not aware of any documented lies from Trump.  I am interesting in learning about any that you may have seen documented.

Offline EdinVA

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 ...he made sure to make this an issue after Cruz took the lead.



Quote
Trump On Cruz’s Citizenship: ‘You’re Supposed To Be Born In This Country’ March 24, 2015 8:59 AM WASHINGTON (CBS DC) — Real estate billionaire and “The Apprentice” host Donald Trump says he’s “seriously” looking at another potential presidential run, saying that President Barack Obama has left the U.S. with “no friends” and that Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, will have a “hurdle” in proving his U.S. citizenship.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/03/24/trump-on-cruzs-citizenship-youre-supposed-to-be-born-in-this-country/

Are you sure?


Offline musiclady

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The TRUTH in this matter has been lost long ago! But if you insist on it here is the unvarnished TRUTH!

Neither Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, or Donald Trump meet the Constitutional qualification of Natural Born Citizenship and neither does Barrack Hussein Obama !
 

Right.

I wonder what you think about Goldberg's opinion that, if this were a matter of great significance, it would have been settled long ago.

I've heard that elsewhere as well.  Is it 'unsettled' because it's minor?  And if it's significant, then why still unsettled after two centuries?

Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline katzenjammer

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The TRUTH in this matter has been lost long ago! But if you insist on it here is the unvarnished TRUTH!

Neither Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, or Donald Trump meet the Constitutional qualification of Natural Born Citizenship and neither does Barrack Hussein Obama !
 

 :pondering:  Hmmm....

We may have found our first point of disagreement in this whole discussion, Bigun.

Do you consider the fact that Trump's mother was naturalized as a US citizen four years prior to his birth to render Trump ineligible?

I know that there have been some proponents of a model that both parents must also be natural born Citizens themselves, but I have never found anything in the history of Natural Law to support that contention.  I've always understood the concept of both parents being Citizens of the realm to be the stop gap measure (against potential divided loyalties) on the jus sanguinis side of the equation.   

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Unfortunately, there are those who will not vote for Cruz because of the deception of the cat.

There are probably those who won't vote for Trump over this if Cruz drops out thanks to this. Quite a few, I'd say.
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Offline Bigun

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:pondering:  Hmmm....

We may have found our first point of disagreement in this whole discussion, Bigun.

Do you consider the fact that Trump's mother was naturalized as a US citizen four years prior to his birth to render Trump ineligible?

I know that there have been some proponents of a model that both parents must also be natural born Citizens themselves, but I have never found anything in the history of Natural Law to support that contention.  I've always understood the concept of both parents being Citizens of the realm to be the stop gap measure (against potential divided loyalties) on the jus sanguinis side of the equation.

If that is true then I am wrong about Trump but I have not yet been able to find any evidence that says his mother was naturalized a U.S. Citizen less than two years after her arrival here from Scotland!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline alicewonders

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Are anchor babies qualified to run for president?  I'm asking because I do not know the answer to that and I'm sure someone here does. 

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The whole thing's more a reflection on Trump than on Cruz.   Cruz can't change the circumstance of his birth,  and there is no way in hell that the SCOTUS is going to invalidate the credentials of the natural-born son of an American citizen.   

This is just Trump applying the screws, like any other wise guy.   The danger of Donald Trump isn't just that he bears no relation to a principled conservative, or that he's shamelessly opportunistic.   It's that he's by nature a strongman,  a man who wants to be king,  and anyone who's been the slightest bit concerned about Obama's executive orders and other usurpations of office better shut the flip up when Trump starts trying to run the country like a big city building contractor. 
 
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Offline Bigun

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Right.

I wonder what you think about Goldberg's opinion that, if this were a matter of great significance, it would have been settled long ago.

I've heard that elsewhere as well.  Is it 'unsettled' because it's minor?  And if it's significant, then why still unsettled after two centuries?

It IS settled! And has been for a LONG time! All you have to do is look!

I'm not about to recreate it here but there is a recent LONG thread here on the subject that conclusively proves it!

Here's a link! http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,190577.0.html


Edit to add: The ONLY thing unsettled is who EXACTLY is supposed to enforce the rules laid out in the Constitution and that really isn't unsettled either it's just not being done and hasn't been for a very long time!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 04:37:11 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Are anchor babies qualified to run for president?  I'm asking because I do not know the answer to that and I'm sure someone here does.

NO! They are not and the fact is that there is no such thing as an "anchor baby" if you look at the intent of the folks who actually wrote the 14th amendment!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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And protect us from the "Destroyers!"

The "Destroyers" have led this nation down their path for WAY to long and it's about time we stopped following blindly along!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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Right.

I wonder what you think about Goldberg's opinion that, if this were a matter of great significance, it would have been settled long ago.

I've heard that elsewhere as well.  Is it 'unsettled' because it's minor?  And if it's significant, then why still unsettled after two centuries?

Ignoring the fact that Mr. Goldberg's question on its face is just another logical fallacy, you raise two interesting questions.

Quote
Is it 'unsettled' because it's minor?

Is it minor?  You be the judge.  The Founders inserted that clause (after a fair amount of back and forth discussion which we are fortunate to have preserved in the public record) for a very specific reason.  The wanted to ensure that the occupant of this one specific office, the President and CiC, would be as free as possible from divided loyalties.  To do that, they proffered the Natural Law concept of a "natural born Citizen" as their best possible remedy.  To wit, ensuring that the person was born within the realm (jus solis) and born of parents that were Citizens of the realm (jus sanguinis), and not subject to the authority of any other realm, was the solution that they implemented.

I know that some argue that it is not "fool proof," in that we have already seen a natural born Citizen President (i.e., WJC) that ascended to the office and did a great deal of destruction to this Nation, much of which owing to divided loyalties.  However, that argument is another logical fallacy, it is called the Fallacy of the Perfect Solution.

(And, I must add, in my view it remains "unsettled" as a political and societal question.  Legally and Constitutionally it is not "unsettled" at all.)

[Edited to add: A Barack Hussein 0baa is the perfect example of what the clause was intended to prevent.  After 7+ years, do you consider it a 'minor' matter? ]


Quote
And if it's significant, then why still unsettled after two centuries?

When I think about why we are at, at this point in time, 2016, with the matter remaining "unsettled," I am reminded of a very different question.  Some have asked, with all of their wisdom (and God granted inspiration, IMO) did the Founders not include Term Limits?  The answer to that is that they were unable to judge two things about our population as time progressed:

1.  The level of avarice, selfishness, and wickedness that the country's future population would seed.  Their model was that citizen legislators would step forward as needed, to serve for a term or two, then return to their prior lives and occupations.  I personally doubt that they ever foresaw 30 to 40+ years of 'public service' being in the realm of possibility.

2.  The level of indifference and distraction that would render the vast majority of the population almost deaf, dumb, and blind in matters of the government (that was supposed to be a government of WtP).  The inherent form of a "Term Limit" was to be the ballot box, every two years for the Representatives of the People.  A diligent and attending population would turn away the scoundrels of item 1 above.

So, what does that have to do with this topic?  I believe that it was the same deficit of being able to accurately predict the future on the Founders' part, that has created this situation.  Again, I believe that their implicit assumptions about our future versions of society did not include two different, but parallel forms, of the above:

1.  They didn't predict that men (and women down the road) that would become leaders, of the level of stature required, within the government and society, to make themselves viable candidates for the Presidency, would ever wander so far afield that they either didn't understand the Natural Law based aspects of the eligibility clause, or would be so disingenuous to blatantly ignore it.

2.  Again, an educated and informed populace would serve as the stop gap remedy to item 1.  An informed and engaged populace would stop such a candidacy dead in its tracks.


So, we are where we are.  In my opinion there is only a very narrow path that can be taken to get the issue to the Supremes.  At this moment I don't see that there will be any movement down that path.  And it goes without saying, we have no idea what the answer from the Supremes would be.  (Some of us have hunches, but none of us knows.)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 04:41:40 pm by katzenjammer »

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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LOL.  Mr. Goldberg's article is so full of logical fallacies that I lost count about half way through.  It is sort of funny and sad at the same time to watch people flail at a topic that they apparently can't even begin to comprehend (although I doubt that is what is behind this silliness!).

And his topical question is equally ridiculous (and a logical fallacy in and of itself), it doesn't matter what Trump or anyone else "cares" about it.  Mr. Cruz's birth facts are what they are, because of choices made by his parents; and the Constitution says what it says in clause 5 of Section 1 of Article Two, because the Founders thought it necessary to include. 

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Donald Trump's History of Raising Birther Questions About President Obama

 The reality TV star and businessman has spoken extensively about his questions over whether Barak Obama was actually born in Hawaii like he (and the state of Hawaii) says he was.

In 2011, when he was vocally mulling over a possible presidential run, Trump launched a public pursuit of Obama's birth certificate, announcing that he has sent private investigators to Hawaii to see what they could find.