(Opinion) Why Many “Conservatives” are Horrified by Donald Trump’s Candidacy

[katzenjammer]

Very well-thought out piece.  I would like to see what you have to say about Cruz.  I am a Cruz supporter.  Volunteered and worked on his senate race.  But, I don't want to select a candidate because I "like" him/her.  I want to hear both sides.  I don't want to hear thoughtless stuff: "I can't stand the way he talks", "I don't like his hair", that kind of stuff.  But, it is so valuable to read reasonable, logical opinions, especially if they don't back up what I believe.

Thank you, Sanguine.  I will probably attempt to collect my thoughts on Senator Cruz's candidacy at some time soon.  I will do my best to be fair and honest about him and his record.  However, I will also share some of my opinions that will be worth as much as you paid for them!!  lol

 

[katzenjammer]

Thank you for your thoughtful commentary, Ed.  My comments to you, below.

Great piece Katz and thank you for the effort.

My take on all of this is we have had several GOPe congresses and presidents in my lifetime and not once have they done what they promised to do during their campaign.  At the end of each "tour of duty' our debt is larger as is our government, our position in the world is lessened and we continue to have government initiated economic turmoil.  Our borders have still not been secured and we continue importing people that want to kill us, even with a republican controlled congress.

Our candidates fill our hearts and minds with promises of economic stability and national security yet once they get elected, they no longer need our support and focus on fundraisers for their next election or attending cocktail parties.  The truly troubling part to me is that once we "beat them" and "our guy" is in office, we seem to go back to sleep and stop pushing those we elect to do what they said they would do.

In a nutshell you have just described two critical elements:

1.  The primary reason for the groundswell of support that Trump's campaign has developed.

2.  The primary reason that he is apparently "teflon" at this point in the game.  Because of what you have described, a LOT of people really don't care all that much about his many flaws, and his often intemperate manner of speaking.  And the more that the establishment and their mouthpieces attempt to crucify him for this (especially when they lie and distort reality in the process), his support only grows stronger.

My observation of the conversations on TBR is more than simply getting "our guy" elected.
I think there is genuine fear/concern/?? that this may be our last shot to get it right.

Absolutely, I think that sentiment is shared across the populace well beyond the bounds of this forum.

Will the next president even try to undo the damage and if that person does try, are they going to be tough/resourceful and determined enough to be able to get it done?

If that next president does, he/she will be UNLIKE any that have preceded him/her (since Coolidge, if one takes a bitingly serious look back at reality).

Do we genuinely believe a "mainstream" gop president capable/willing to put their political career or second term or post presidency status at risk to eliminate/reduce the debt and reduce the size of government?
I don't know and the only yardstick I have is past performance and that is not good.

I agree, past performance argues against that, and it seems that many share your thinking!

My hope is that as rouge as Trump is, that he will actually attempt to do the things he says he will, that is the only reason I am hanging my hat on him.

As I said above, at this point in time I am taking him at face value, warts and all.

Thanks again for your comments!! 

[Bigun]

Katz the wife and I went out to dinner with some friends this evening so I'm just now getting to this very well done article. I find that there is one category of "Conservative" you failed to mention (perhaps a category of one) in your piece.  That category consists of those like me who like a great deal of what they hear Trump saying but simply DO NOT, and will never, trust him to run the country we hold dear. I fear that he is nothing more than Bill Clinton's Ross Perot! I feel it in my bones but having said that I will not beat the folks here who believe in him about the head and shoulders trying to convince them of their error. I will simply pray that  they were right and I was wrong should Trump somehow become our president.

PLEASE don't be such a stranger around here!

[katzenjammer]

Katz the wife and I went out to dinner with some friends this evening so I'm just now getting to this very well done article. I find that there is one category of "Conservative" you failed to mention (perhaps a category of one) in your piece.  That category consists of those like me who like a great deal of what they hear Trump saying but simply DO NOT, and will never, trust him to run the country we hold dear. I fear that he is nothing more than Bill Clinton's Ross Perot! I feel it in my bones but having said that I will not beat the folks here who believe in him about the head and shoulders trying to convince them of their error. I will simply pray that  they were right and I was wrong should Trump somehow become our president.

PLEASE don't be such a stranger around here!

Ha!!  I knew that there would be at least one!!  lol

The 3rd main reason (sub-section) that I was going to include was called: "I Don't Trust Him!"  (And the 4th is called: "He's Not Qualified!")

I never bothered to flesh either of these sections out, so I didn't include them in this draft.

Since you brought it up, I will briefly respond to that complaint.

Firstly, I (nor anyone of sound mind) can't argue with what you "feel it in my bones."  I understand how that works, and fully respect those sentiments from a person as lucid, experienced, and knowledgable as yourself.

I can only attempt to counter that with these two thoughts:

1.  I don't fully trust any of the others, some more/less than the others.

2.  Perot only became the spoiler that he did because of the actions taken against him (most of which are still not widely discussed).  There is no guarantee that the same forces (some of which are actually the same skin and bones!) won't be equally as effective this go around with Trump.  For me, at the present time, that is a risk that I am willing to shoulder.

I always have enjoyed sharing thoughts and ideas with you and many others here, so I will try to mind my Ps & Qs so that I don't have to exile myself again!!  lol

 

[Bigun]

Ha!!  I knew that there would be at least one!!  lol

The 3rd main reason (sub-section) that I was going to include was called: "I Don't Trust Him!"  (And the 4th is called: "He's Not Qualified!")

I never bothered to flesh either of these sections out, so I didn't include them in this draft.

Since you brought it up, I will briefly respond to that complaint.

Firstly, I (nor anyone of sound mind) can't argue with what you "feel it in my bones."  I understand how that works, and fully respect those sentiments from a person as lucid, experienced, and knowledgable as yourself.

I can only attempt to counter that with these two thoughts:

1.  I don't fully trust any of the others, some more/less than the others.

2.  Perot only became the spoiler that he did because of the actions taken against him (most of which are still not widely discussed).  There is no guarantee that the same forces (some of which are actually the same skin and bones!) won't be equally as effective this go around with Trump.  For me, at the present time, that is a risk that I am willing to shoulder.

I always have enjoyed sharing thoughts and ideas with you and many others here, so I will try to mind my Ps & Qs so that I don't have to exile myself again!!  lol

 

Thanks Katz! Fair enough! 

[massadvj]

You make some very valid points Katz.  Myself, I don't like Trump because he is, as you say, a "wild card."  I think if he is elected, he will do whatever he wants, and I don't think he is particularly grounded in constitutional ideology.  I believe he is a pure marketer who seeks the presidency for his own ends, and I am fairly certain, based on his stated positions, that his policy agenda is not compatible with my vision for this country.  However, I am not completely obsessed with the man to the point that I would support Hillary, or even a third party run by a GOPe candidate, instead.  I think he is smart enough to handle the job.

The thing about Trump is that the man is HUGE.  He plays very, very big.  And all the other candidates look like dwarfs in comparison.  That kind of gravitas is very rare.  Even a guy like Jeb Bush, a man who governed one of our biggest states for two successful terms, pales in comparison.  It must be confounding the hell out of Trump's competitors.  But until someone cuts him down to size, he is going to lead the pack.  And I don't see anyone in the field with the capability to play bigger than Trump.

Another thing I am pretty sure of is that Trump will absolutely wipe the floor against Hillary Clinton.  She will have no idea how to run a campaign against him.  He will be openly misogynistic and no one will care.

[katzenjammer]

You make some very valid points Katz.  Myself, I don't like Trump because he is, as you say, a "wild card."  I think if he is elected, he will do whatever he wants, and I don't think he is particularly grounded in constitutional ideology.  I believe he is a pure marketer who seeks the presidency for his own ends, and I am fairly certain, based on his stated positions, that his policy agenda is not compatible with my vision for this country.  However, I am not completely obsessed with the man to the point that I would support Hillary, or even a third party run by a GOPe candidate, instead.  I think he is smart enough to handle the job.

The thing about Trump is that the man is HUGE.  He plays very, very big.  And all the other candidates look like dwarfs in comparison.  That kind of gravitas is very rare.  Even a guy like Jeb Bush, a man who governed one of our biggest states for two successful terms, pales in comparison.  It must be confounding the hell out of Trump's competitors.  But until someone cuts him down to size, he is going to lead the pack.  And I don't see anyone in the field with the capability to play bigger than Trump.

Another thing I am pretty sure of is that Trump will absolutely wipe the floor against Hillary Clinton.  She will have no idea how to run a campaign against him.  He will be openly misogynistic and no one will care.

Thank you, Victor, for your thoughtful commentary.  I bolded one sentence in your first paragraph, that is my biggest concern with the man.

If you look back in time, interviews available on Youtube, you will see that he has been promoting a "Pro America" vision (albeit his own that may not resonate fully for most of us) for decades.  At the present, I truly believe that his motivations are to attempt to restore America to (at least some level of) its former greatness.  I believe he has a patriotic heart and intends to attempt to halt the decline for the sakes of his children & grandchildren, and generations to follow.  Will he succeed?  I don't know.  Will his idea of a restored America fully match mine?  I doubt it.

Coming into 2016 I was looking for a cudgel with which to smash the uniparty establishment, as thoroughly as possible.  Trump has surfaced as the heaviest, and most damaging, cudgel on the market.   I am hoping that the damage that he does is sufficient and widespread.  For if it is not, the spiral will continue for the rest of our natural lives, and at some point devolve into full scale bloody revolution, during the lifetimes of our children and grandchildren. 

If he is successful at smashing the status quo sufficiently, we may have a hope at putting back together some of the pieces in a manner that is (at least temporarily) satisfactory for the most part.  For that I am willing to gamble that his less desirable traits and impulses will be reigned in by trusted advisors (akin to how his numerous business ventures have been successfully run for decades).

Can't say I argue at all with the bulk of your commentary.

Thank you again for your input!! 

[EC]

Wonderfully written. You painted him warts and all. I am adding my voice to the requests for more please - especially a similar look at Cruz and Rubio! 

I could add another category to your well thought out three (including the one you sketched for my brother) - though it might best come under the heading "I don't trust him."

For many years now it has been an understood (but rarely admitted) fact that the UK military is basically a sub-section of the US military. Think the last time we told you "No" was Vietnam, since we had our own troubles at the time in several spots around the globe. As such, the person who is going to be our de facto CO is of some interest, to say the least.

Is he a worthy CO? Not in my opinion.

[katzenjammer]

Wonderfully written. You painted him warts and all. I am adding my voice to the requests for more please - especially a similar look at Cruz and Rubio! 

I could add another category to your well thought out three (including the one you sketched for my brother) - though it might best come under the heading "I don't trust him."

For many years now it has been an understood (but rarely admitted) fact that the UK military is basically a sub-section of the US military. Think the last time we told you "No" was Vietnam, since we had our own troubles at the time in several spots around the globe. As such, the person who is going to be our de facto CO is of some interest, to say the least.

Is he a worthy CO? Not in my opinion.

Thanks for your comments, EC!

I think that your comment would have best fit into the "He's Not Qualified!" category, although it certainly can fit into the "I Don't Trust Him!" as well.

I am assuming that your "CO" (Commanding Officer) is a shorthand for our usual "CIC" (Commander In Chief) designation.  Interestingly the blurring of the titles may be a large part of your discomfort.  I would heartily agree that Donald Trump at his advanced age and long detachment from his military academy background has very little in the way of qualifications to serve as a military  Commanding Officer.

However, as Commander In Chief, he has a bit of a different role to play when wearing that hat granted to our President.  Wearing that hat he is serving as the civilian leader of the US military.  In that role he needs to comprehend and balance the realities of the macro environment (the full set of environmental factors beyond the military elements), with the advice, counsel, and strategic/tactical input from the military. 

When considering his potential success or failure in the role, we are left with essentially the same clues that we use for other considerations: his executive performance outside of government, and his policy pronouncements.  Regarding his non-governmental executive performance, I think that that record is pretty clear at this point: a multi-decade track record of overall success around the globe, but not without its ups and downs, and notable blemishes.  As far as his pronouncements, I really can't recall another candidate more consistently calling for the necessity and commitment to re-build the US military (to the noble, if slightly hyperbolic, level that "no one in the world will ever think of messing with US....  so strong.... so powerful.....  so technologically advanced.... no one will ever mess with us!!!"), for many decades. 

(A side point here.  Since Trump is a neophyte politician, it is my opinion that you really have to pay attention to what he is saying over a long period of time, to really get the gist of where he is coming from.  I say that because he often slips up in random interviews and stump speeches.  Additionally, in isolation he can also be unbearably ham-handed in his speech, e.g., "I am the most militaristic person that you ever met!!"  My point being, that if you want to understand what Donald Trump has to say about an issue, you need to absorb and analyze (as close to as possible) the full set of his pronouncements over time.  One can take random sound bites in isolation (as the media delights in doing each day!), and completely lose (or distort) his overall message.  Which is in my opinion one of his largest liabilities as a political candidate.)


Going back to the likelihood of his success as an executive in the CIC role, that will largely be determined by his choice of top military advisers (including Joint Chiefs and Chairman), as well as his civilian choices, e.g., SecDef.  Will he make good choices?  Will he follow their advice?  Yet to be determined.

If fate and circumstances lead him to the point that he becomes your de facto CIC as you mention, I truly hope that he serves your military extremely well in that regard!!

 

[aligncare]

Thanks for your comments, EC!

I think that your comment would have best fit into the "He's Not Qualified!" category, although it certainly can fit into the "I Don't Trust Him!" as well.

I am assuming that your "CO" (Commanding Officer) is a shorthand for our usual "CIC" (Commander In Chief) designation.  Interestingly the blurring of the titles may be a large part of your discomfort.  I would heartily agree that Donald Trump at his advanced age and long detachment from his military academy background has very little in the way of qualifications to serve as a military  Commanding Officer.

However, as Commander In Chief, he has a bit of a different role to play when wearing that hat granted to our President.  Wearing that hat he is serving as the civilian leader of the US military.  In that role he needs to comprehend and balance the realities of the macro environment (the full set of environmental factors beyond the military elements), with the advice, counsel, and strategic/tactical input from the military. 

When considering his potential success or failure in the role, we are left with essentially the same clues that we use for other considerations: his executive performance outside of government, and his policy pronouncements.  Regarding his non-governmental executive performance, I think that that record is pretty clear at this point: a multi-decade track record of overall success around the globe, but not without its ups and downs, and notable blemishes.  As far as his pronouncements, I really can't recall another candidate more consistently calling for the necessity and commitment to re-build the US military (to the noble, if slightly hyperbolic, level that "no one in the world will ever think of messing with US....  so strong.... so powerful.....  so technologically advanced.... no one will ever mess with us!!!"), for many decades. 

(A side point here.  Since Trump is a neophyte politician, it is my opinion that you really have to pay attention to what he is saying over a long period of time, to really get the gist of where he is coming from.  I say that because he often slips up in random interviews and stump speeches.  Additionally, in isolation he can also be unbearably ham-handed in his speech, e.g., "I am the most militaristic person that you ever met!!"  My point being, that if you want to understand what Donald Trump has to say about an issue, you need to absorb and analyze (as close to as possible) the full set of his pronouncements over time.  One can take random sound bites in isolation (as the media delights in doing each day!), and completely lose (or distort) his overall message.  Which is in my opinion one of his largest liabilities as a political candidate.)


Going back to the likelihood of his success as an executive in the CIC role, that will largely be determined by his choice of top military advisers (including Joint Chiefs and Chairman), as well as his civilian choices, e.g., SecDef.  Will he make good choices?  Will he follow their advice?  Yet to be determined.

If fate and circumstances lead him to the point that he becomes your de facto CIC as you mention, I truly hope that he serves your military extremely well in that regard!!

 

Wow! Did you do post graduate work in political science while you were away? I'm totally blown away by your grasp of this seemingly simple point concerning the CiC's role in American government.

Don't stop posting again, ever!

[alicewonders]

Good response Katz!  It is very important to look at the quality of decisions Trump has made in his career and weigh his mistakes carefully while looking at the whole of Trump's experience, to be able to trust the decisions he would make as CIC.  Like you said, he does at least have the experience of attending a military academy for five years.   

He is SO not the perfect candidate, but he may be the perfect candidate for these strange times.

[EdinVA]

Good response Katz!  It is very important to look at the quality of decisions Trump has made in his career and weigh his mistakes carefully while looking at the whole of Trump's experience, to be able to trust the decisions he would make as CIC.  Like you said, he does at least have the experience of attending a military academy for five years.   

He is SO not the perfect candidate, but he may be the perfect candidate for these strange times.

Not sure there is a "perfect" candidate.... 

[Bigun]

Not sure there is a "perfect" candidate.... 

There never has been nor will there ever be a perfect candidate! Unless YOU decide to run!

[EdinVA]

There never has been nor will there ever be a perfect candidate! Unless YOU decide to run!

Not me.... they wont let me run unless I give up my bat... :)

[Sanguine]

Not me.... they wont let me run unless I give up my bat... :)

Teddy Roosevelt had a big stick.  I don't see why a bat would disqualify you!

[HAPPY2BME]

Read and reread several times.

Thank you.

[sneakypete]

"So, even if we will never fully admit this, even quietly to ourselves, we should acknowledge that this man's unorthodox and somewhat checkered past, does impact the way that we view both him, and his candidacy,..."

Of course we do. There is no more accurate indicator of an adults future behavior than his or her past behavior. The past becomes a 100 percent predictor when you are talking about a being that is not only NOT ashamed of his past behavior,but even brags about it.

BTW,it is MY opinion that traditional conservatives (people's who main focus is on protecting and restoring the Bill of Rights and reducing the power of the feral government) either win the WH in 2016 or America is over and just waiting for the final fall. Assuming of course that it isn't already too late to recover.

[sneakypete]

>>>I fear that he is nothing more than Bill Clinton's Ross Perot! <<

BINGO!

Although the Dims may wake up one day and realize they have created a monster they can't control without spending a LOT more money than they were planning on spending. Trump is in a category of Ego-Maniac all by himself,and may now see himself sitting on a throne in the WH and wearing a crown. Unlike Perot,he is not about to disappear to anywhere after taking the money. If anything he will brag about how he outsmarted everybody.

[sneakypete]

I think if he is elected, he will do whatever he wants, and I don't think he is particularly grounded in constitutional ideology.  I believe he is a pure marketer who seeks the presidency for his own ends,

I think he has nothing but contempt for the Constitution because it hinders  his operations.

He is nothing more than a 21st Century P.T.Barnum in a nicer suit.

[sneakypete]

.... Like you said, he does at least have the experience of attending a military academy for five years.   

He even claims it makes him feel like a veteran,despite him being a 3x draft-dodger.

Granted,I'm not sure you can hold that against him given the fact he was dodging the draft working for his father and grandfather,and making business contacts and learning their world. In his place,I MAY have done the same myself. Probably not because I was/am a adrenaline junkie
but I can still see reason.

However,doing that and then trying to claim veteran status because you went to a military school shows you have no character or even any understanding of the military culture even after having been submerged in it as a child. If he did have any understanding of it,he would know what he said is a insult to all veterans.

[17 Oaks]

"So, even if we will never fully admit this, even quietly to ourselves, we should acknowledge that this man's unorthodox and somewhat checkered past, does impact the way that we view both him, and his candidacy,..."

Of course we do. There is no more accurate indicator of an adults future behavior than his or her past behavior. The past becomes a 100 percent predictor when you are talking about a being that is not only NOT ashamed of his past behavior,but even brags about it.

BTW,it is MY opinion that traditional conservatives (people's who main focus is on protecting and restoring the Bill of Rights and reducing the power of the feral government) either win the WH in 2016 or America is over and just waiting for the final fall. Assuming of course that it isn't already too late to recover.

Sneak, sage statement.  I personally think we are past the tipping point and we are going down, be it sooner with HildaBeast at the helm or post a GOP win.


Katz, interesting piece, worth the read.


Trump:  The first thing all must accept is that he is a Democrat, is now and has always been.  Has not voted in a GOP primary in over 30 years.  That said is not a Liberal or a Dimocrat, he more of an old line Democrat would most likely conduct his term similar to Billy Klinton's 2nd term when he made a hard right turn.


One also had to remember he is a Capitalist and capitalism is the ONLY economic activity that is organic to humans, every other form of economics is a man-government creation.  Capitalism was born the day that a man dressed in animal skins carrying 2 hindquarters on his shoulders met a group haling skins full of berries and nuts on the trail.  When they parted each group had a hindquarter and a skin full of berries and nuts.  Its the very organic thinking that makes capitalism so successful.  That said it works will under any form of govt, so its really neutral as far as political policy goes and yes even under Socialism it thrives, just like it did in the USSR by going underground or what is commonly called the Black Market.


Trump is a Democrat and a Capitalist!



Why Trump did not debate and left Fox:


I will make the call:


This was a calculated move, planned in advance and it has a purpose and reason.


Given that at this point Trump is not likely to get much on air face time at Fox.  Nor does he want it.  Trump is a Democrat, always has been and has no intention of changing now.  That said he lands squarely in the Dem party of Klinton's 2nd 4 years.  Trump is not a liberal even remotely touching the boundaries of HildaBeast.


What Trump NEEDS is the Dem vote, not the far left Berine or Hilda, but he needs the rest to win.  So he has ditched Fox and will not get BooKoo face time on all the other media outlets, THUS showing his Dem roots and in hopes of gathering the Dems that are center -moderate and would only hold their nose to vote for Hilda or Bernie.


Trump is no dummy and he knows he needs about 64 M votes to win and he cannot get it unless he can walk both sides of the aisle and this is how he has planned to do it.


Will it work?  Who knows but I am not sure most Dems want the far left running things for a third term, nor do they want a true conservative up there.  I think he has a decent shot, since most GOP will vote for him if he is the nominee even if they have to hold their nose.  So he gets the Dem and GOP vote and walks in the door.


This begs the question:  How will he rule?  For that answer, you can go to his website and he will tell you!  https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions


*  China  [He hates China and knows he can out deal them]


*  Veterans Administration  [He like Vets, he knows the VA is broke Richard and he intends on fixing it]


*  Tax Reform [Its broke, unfair and he will revise it]


*  2nd Amend  [Trump is no dummy here, don't touch the 2nd or don't become Americas top gun salesman like Obama did]


*  Immigration Reform  [Everybody knows we need this!]


Everything else will be ad hoc


Look at the list, neither GOP nor Dem, we can all agree some or a lot.  Trump is smart, he is taking common issues and using them to propel his candidacy and popularity across the Dem/GOP party lines.


If he is smart, really smart, he will grab Cruz as his VP.  Cruz is a Cuban (minority/Latino) and he is smart and he has a working knowledge of the top levels of the Govt.  If Trump fails to grab someone who lacks the knowledge of how the govt works at that level he is doomed to fail before he gets started good.  Trump if he wins would be a one term Prez as I doubt he has the stomach for anymore than that.  In fact I see the GOP we win as a one term unless they can produce a Reagan level economic growth or even a Klinton second term economic engine.


I don't see that happening, in fact we may well be on the brink of a long possibly slow spiral into the pit of failure.  Why?


1)  We just broke $19 Trillion in debt (does not include long term debt).  Obama will hand us another Trillion or near it before he leaves office.


2) The US is getting ready to slam HARD in a solid wall.  Under Obama our Govt Opns have spent over $1Trillion over and above revenues to the tune of (see 1 above) and this cannot go on forever.  Putting this into perspective:  We have a govt that has expanded to fill the void that $1 T has created, our govt has been on a drunken binge for almost 8 years.  The govt is faced with 3 options:  Increase taxes to cover the $1T+ shortfall, decrease Govt spending by $1T+ or some combo of the two.  Maybe Trump can fix this mess, I would like to think so, but I doubt it.


3)  Takers Vs Makers:  161 Million are receiving Govt benefits, of that about 100 M are receiving means tested payment, goods and services and to offset that there are only about 106 M that are paying taxes.


We also hear a lot about the Medicare (so called) problem (costs).  Think so?  Lets take a look:  100% of those who draw Medicare (56.8 M folks) paid into Medicare and 100% are also over 65 and guess what, your Medicare bill does not go away, its comes out of your monthly SS check!!!! Vs Medicaid folks (72.7 M) who have never paid in a single dime and never will.  The gross costs to support the Takers is just over $1 Trillion per year!


Is Trump the man with the plan.  Don't bet on it.  Business is not run like the govt and the govt is not run like a business.  As we said in the Army:  They take welders and make them fry cooks and fry cooks and make them welders.  Its not a good fit for either of those and I doubt if its a good fit for Trump...

[Luis Gonzalez]