Trump Is Wrong: America Makes Tons of Stuff

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Great thread so far.  Thank you kevindavis

What is pushing automation is that the service sector can't find enough low pay employees. 

[famousdayandyear]

American does not MAKE anything anymore.  American does not dig into our native ground and make anything from it anymore, because it is forbidden by an overreaching regulatory institution.  Regulations that strangle every friggin effort to PRODUCE something.  Something tangible and REAL.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

American does not MAKE anything anymore.  American does not dig into our native ground and make anything from it anymore, because it is forbidden by an overreaching regulatory institution.  Regulations that strangle every friggin effort to PRODUCE something.  Something tangible and REAL.

That is not true.  We make wood,  coal, natural gas, and oil.  We make weapons and technology and computer programs.  We make entertainment.

Stop using infinitives like "anything."  It is easily refuted.

[famousdayandyear]

That is not true.  We make wood,  coal, natural gas, and oil.  We make weapons and technology and computer programs.  We make entertainment.

Stop using infinitives like "anything."  It is easily refuted.

Please be honest.  No human being "makes"  wood, coal, natural gas and oil.  These are resources we used to exploit to MANUFACTURE goods.   
Our manufacturing jobs have disappeared:  consider the Tool & Dye industry in the northeast.  Or the steel mills in PA.  Examples.

Rearranging electronic pulses does not "make" anything but a service customers are willing to pay for.  These, although attractive, are not tangible goods. 

Please think carefully about what I am trying to communicate.  There IS a
definable difference.  Thank you for a thoughtful response.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Please be honest.  No human being "makes"  wood, coal, natural gas and oil.  These are resources we used to exploit to MANUFACTURE goods.   
Our manufacturing jobs have disappeared:  consider the Tool & Dye industry in the northeast.  Or the steel mills in PA.  Examples.

Rearranging electronic pulses does not "make" anything but a service customers are willing to pay for.  These, although attractive, are not tangible goods. 

Please think carefully about what I am trying to communicate.  There IS a
definable difference.  Thank you for a thoughtful response.

You have made excellent points.

I believe wood is a renewable resource and is made.  I have 2 family members who work in saw mills.  Your point on coal, natural gas and oil is noted, but I would point out we have developed better ways to exploit those resources.

I believe, as long as someone is willing to pay money for electronic pulses, it doesn't matter if the goods are programs or airplanes.

Thank you for your equally thoughtful reply famous. 
I am kind of digging the respectful tone of my fellow TBR contributors tonight.   

[famousdayandyear]

You have made excellent points.

I believe wood is a renewable resource and is made.  I have 2 family members who work in saw mills.  Your point on coal, natural gas and oil is noted, but I would point out we have developed better ways to exploit those resources.

I believe, as long as someone is willing to pay money for electronic pulses, it doesn't matter if the goods are programs or airplanes.

Thank you for your equally thoughtful reply famous. 
I am kind of digging the respectful tone of my fellow TBR contributors tonight.   

It is flattering you "dig" my response.  Thank you.

There is a distinctive difference between a tangible MANUFACTURED product (such as a piece of fine furniture, well made towels and other fabrics, steel beams, firearms, cookware, construction equipment, lawn maintenance equipment, and son on) that is NO longer MANUFACTURED in the USA; between that and software applications, that, quite frankly, can be created from grandma's garage or basement. 

Can you grab hold of a steel beam?  Yes.
Can you grab hold of an Android App?  No.

Only the most discerning mind can begin to grasp the LONG TERM consequences of the difference.

This is my weak presentation.  Next time, I'll do better.
Thanks in advance for your consideration.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

This is my weak presentation.  Next time, I'll do better.
Thanks in advance for your consideration.

It wasn't weak in the least.  It was honest and persuasive.  Something I have come to expect from you, my friend.

Navy pointed out that he got an Iphone 6.  That phone has more computing power than several rooms full of computers that landed our astronauts on the moon...if you believe that...
(I'm just kidding famous.)

That is a real value.  Today I can ask Siri...I don't have to open up my encyclopedia or the yellow pages.
knowledge at my finger tips.
What is the value of that?

It is incalculable.

I can talk to my friends in China, or England, or next door through twitter, or facebook, or skype for a fraction of pennies.
Just computer impulses.  Tell me that isn't worth more than some cheap plastic widget made in Korea by slave labor.


as an aside, it is no secret that I really like sinkspur, and I think he is a fantastic intellect and debater.  I know you and he often collide.  I don't take sides in those personal disputes.  I have a great deal of respect for your opinion, although we sometimes do not agree. 

As I have said before, I do not come here to have my opinions validated...I come to have them challenged, and you do that well and with charm and wit.

I know you are a woman of strong opinion backed by intelligence and knowledge...so if you see me compliment sinksur, please do not assume that I think less of you.  I don't.

Thank you for your response.   

[Longiron]

It is flattering you "dig" my response.  Thank you.

There is a distinctive difference between a tangible MANUFACTURED product (such as a piece of fine furniture, well made towels and other fabrics, steel beams, firearms, cookware, construction equipment, lawn maintenance equipment, and son on) that is NO longer MANUFACTURED in the USA; between that and software applications, that, quite frankly, can be created from grandma's garage or basement. 

Can you grab hold of a steel beam?  Yes.
Can you grab hold of an Android App?  No.

Only the most discerning mind can begin to grasp the LONG TERM consequences of the difference.

This is my weak presentation.  Next time, I'll do better.
Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Good luck famous you lost most of these "business" experts in your first post. Assemble that is something you do like putting a plastic model car together???

[libertybele]

In a nutshell, NAFTA which was drafted by Bush Sr., and signed by Clinton screwed us.  It is time to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. by giving tax breaks and incentives that will also attract businesses from other countries here. The United States has the third highest general top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1 percent.  I have no doubt that Trump as POTUS would be great in accomplishing economic growth and bring about economic stability to our country and make us a prosperous nation once again.

[kevindavis007]

In a nutshell, NAFTA which was drafted by Bush Sr., and signed by Clinton screwed us.  It is time to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. by giving tax breaks and incentives that will also attract businesses from other countries here. The United States has the third highest general top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1 percent.  I have no doubt that Trump as POTUS would be great in accomplishing economic growth and bring about economic stability to our country and make us a prosperous nation once again.

Reagan also liked the idea of NAFTA..

[libertybele]

Reagan also liked the idea of NAFTA..

...that maybe...but NAFTA is a prime example of "free" trade in lieu of "fair trade".

[Bigun]

American does not MAKE anything anymore.  American does not dig into our native ground and make anything from it anymore, because it is forbidden by an overreaching regulatory institution.  Regulations that strangle every friggin effort to PRODUCE something.  Something tangible and REAL.

And that is 100% the fault of our Marxist tax code which punishes the HELL out of anything produced in America in world markets!

[Bigun]

...that maybe...but NAFTA is a prime example of "free" trade in lieu of "fair trade".

NAFTA nor any other trade agreement is ever going to fix the fundamental problem which is our current Marxist tax code! Period! End of story!

[EdinVA]

Great thread so far.  Thank you kevindavis

What is pushing automation is that the service sector can't find enough low pay employees.

How low is low enough?

Physical assets (non-human) are depreciated over a period of time depending upon the type of asset (buildings, equipment, etc) by tacking the cost of that asset and dividing by the "useful" life (5,10, 20 years) and that is the annual depreciation that is deducted from income taxes.  In addition, any interest paid for financing and maintenance costs for that asset so that automation drives the cost down to pennies an hour.

If you have an employee, in addition to an hourly rate you have to pay the corporate half of social security (7.5%), unemployment insurance, vacation/sickdays and obamacare.  So a $40k employee costs the employer something along the lines of $50 to $60K per year.  The employer can deduct the costs of that employee but not depreciation etc.

So we are financially rewarding companies to automate vs hire people, then we are importing cheap labor claiming that we cannot find American cheap labor but we demand that our house values continue to go up and fewer and fewer people can afford to buy those same homes.

Then corporate America moves manufacturing overseas because they will no longer have to comply with environmental and labor regulations, companies can dump whatever they want, where ever they want as there are no rules and they can fill sweatshops with ease.

Then on top of all that, if the money (profits) stay overseas it is tax free.

I would suggest that this song about no cheap labor in the US is a totally fabricated load of BS pushed by Wall Street to protect their money.

We berate candidates because they are historically not loyal party members and we chastise dual citizens because question their "patriotism" and loyalty.
Where is the corporate loyalty?  Most of these companies would not have existed at all without the American workforce and maketplace.

[DCPatriot]

When I owned/ran my businesses, everybody was hired as an independent contractor/consultants.

They got paid an agreed upon sum for services rendered and paid their own damned taxes.

I treated them no differently than the neighborhood kid cutting my lawn or shoveling my driveway.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

How low is low enough?

You've painted a pretty accurate picture of the benefits and costs of creating a job.  I would only add that people invest money to make money, not high paying jobs. I have money invested in mutual funds.  Most everybody with retirement accounts are invested in Wall Street...and it ain't so we can create high paying jobs.  So that song about no cheap labor in the US is a totally fabricated load of BS pushed by Wall Street to protect "our" money.

Only the business that can create a profit expands and creates more jobs.  Something to consider.

[Bigun]

You've painted a pretty accurate picture of the benefits and costs of creating a job.  I would only add that people invest money to make money, not high paying jobs. I have money invested in mutual funds.  Most everybody with retirement accounts are invested in Wall Street...and it ain't so we can create high paying jobs.  So that song about no cheap labor in the US is a totally fabricated load of BS pushed by Wall Street to protect "our" money.

Only the business that can create a profit expands and creates more jobs.  Something to consider.

Imagine what would happen if Americans could open or expand a business without having to first consider the tax implications of doing so.

[EdinVA]

Imagine what would happen if Americans could open or expand a business without having to first consider the tax implications of doing so.

True, but imagine what would happen if Americans stopped buying cheap imported junk and hired American companies, if there are any left.
Imagine if people with 401K's and mutual funds would insist that at least 75% of the investments had to be American.

Just imagine if our own feral government would follow the Buy American Act....

[jmyrlefuller]

Darn that automation. Before you know it, the power loom will put hand weavers out of jobs.

So how do you expect them to make a living?

[truth_seeker]

Mercedes, BMW and VW have all started making/assembling vehicles in the USA.

Mercedes-Alabama
BMW-South Carolina
VW-Tennessee

See any pattern? Each of these companies also makes vehicles in many other countries, too.

Same goes for Japanese and Korean carmakers. (Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mazda, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, etc.)

So after all, America DOES still make things. When it comes to vehicles, it appears those who say America does not make anything, are wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Bigun]

Mercedes, BMW and VW have all started making/assembling vehicles in the USA.

Mercedes-Alabama
BMW-South Carolina
VW-Tennessee

See any pattern? Each of these companies also makes vehicles in many other countries, too.

Same goes for Japanese and Korean carmakers. (Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mazda, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, etc.)

So after all, America DOES still make things. When it comes to vehicles, it appears those who say America does not make anything, are wrong, wrong, wrong.

You seem to subscribe to the very mistaken idea that assemble means the same as make. It doesn't!

[truth_seeker]

So how do you expect them to make a living?

Go west, young man. And these days, go south too.

Historically people have adapted, and moved to locations where the work was. Blacks migrated to the north. The "Dust Bowl" caused many to migrate west. Oil, gold, silver booms have lured many.

People that just sit in a fixed location, in their own self-constructed "pity pots," decrying their sad state of affairs deserve little concern.

Try the oil fields of North Dakota. 

[ABX]

So how do you expect them to make a living?

The way humans have survived technological growth and change for as long as there have been civilizations, evolve (in this case, evolve their skill set to the new changing technology and automation.) It is actually something we humans are quite good at if given the chance.

I guess you missed the point in my mentioning the power loom. You used the same argument the Luddites used when they protested (and sometimes burned the factories of) that new technology, all because they were afraid hand spinners couldn't make a living. 

[ABX]

You seem to subscribe to the very mistaken idea that assemble means the same as make. It doesn't!

Assembly is part of the 'make' process and has always been. It is very rare that someone makes anything from raw material to final product. Even the saddle makers of 100 years ago didn't make them from start to finish. Often, the saddle maker was just an assembly man who put together components sourced from others. That's the way businesses grow. They specialize and source out to someone who specializes in other parts to deliver the most efficient, profitable, best item for their brand.

[DCPatriot]

Assembly is part of the 'make' process and has always been. It is very rare that someone makes anything from raw material to final product. Even the saddle makers of 100 years ago didn't make them from start to finish. Often, the saddle maker was just an assembly man who put together components sourced from others. That's the way businesses grow. They specialize and source out to someone who specializes in other parts to deliver the most efficient, profitable, best item for their brand.

Ford Motor Company has a stamping plant in Hamburg, NY, just outside Buffalo.

Then they transport the parts by rail to assembly plants elsewhere in the country.