This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie

[musiclady]

Could you refer me to the section of the Bible that mentions individual liberties and freedom of religion/thought?

As soon as you back up a single statement you've made here with a single fact (as I have done throughout).

You're the smart one here.  Support your claims with some reality and not feeling.

Then we can continue the discussion on a more level playing field.  (i.e. you say something true).

[Dexter]

Baloney.  The concept of "inalienability" of rights -- including the rights of life, liberty and property -- comes right out of the British protestant tradition.  Specifically, John Locke held that these rights are "God-given" and therefore outside the bounds of government to compromise.

http://digitalcommons.law.seattleu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1746&context=sulr

That epiphany about rights and liberties happened a great while after Christianity hit the scene. I think the idea of inalienable rights was more of an evolution of culture/thought rather than something introduced by Christianity. Christianity is not what lead to us being free.

[musiclady]

http://www.heritage.org/initiatives/first-principles/primary-sources/massachusetts-constitution

I recommend, for those whose minds are open, and for those who have not been inculcated with a Progressive revisionist history about the founding of this great nation (i.e. Dex), reading the Massachusetts Constitution.

Massachusetts was the most conservative colony, founded by the dreaded Pilgrim separatists (who, not incidentally, came to America for the very purpose of religious liberty........ gasp), and it makes very clear in its Constitution that there will be no abridgment of the freedom to worship as one pleased......... even if that wasn't the same kind of worship as the state (of Massachusetts) adopted.

Christianity and religious liberty go hand in hand.  This country was founded on the principles of liberty, which come ONLY from the Judeo-Christian culture from which our Founders emerged.  Even the so-called Enlightenment came about within the framework of Biblical morality, and the strong moral principles contained within our Constitution are a direct result of that Christian framework.

Because of that, American Christians were strong proponents of education, charitable endeavors, and above all, LIBERTY.

[massadvj]

That epiphany about rights and liberties happened a great while after Christianity hit the scene. I think the idea of inalienable rights was more of an evolution of culture/thought rather than something introduced by Christianity. Christianity is not what lead to us being free.

It was not biblical per se, but definitely cultural, and heavily influenced by British protestant tradition.  Hence, its evolution is inexorably tied to Christianity.  I think there is even a little schism between Catholics and protestants in terms of how they view rights.  People like Russell Kirk and William F Buckley, who were both Catholics, were far less libertarian, and led modern day conservatism toward a more traditionalist orientation. 

[musiclady]

Back to the subject........... India is entrenched in poverty as a direct result of their non-caring, caste controlled, restrictive and closed religion.... Hinduism.

[bkepley]

http://www.heritage.org/initiatives/first-principles/primary-sources/massachusetts-constitution

I recommend, for those whose minds are open, and for those who have not been inculcated with a Progressive revisionist history about the founding of this great nation (i.e. Dex), reading the Massachusetts Constitution.

Massachusetts was the most conservative colony, founded by the dreaded Pilgrim separatists (who, not incidentally, came to America for the very purpose of religious liberty........ gasp), and it makes very clear in its Constitution that there will be no abridgment of the freedom to worship as one pleased......... even if that wasn't the same kind of worship as the State adopted.

Christianity and religious liberty go hand in hand.  This country was founded on the principles of liberty, which come ONLY from the Judeo-Christian culture from which our Founders emerged.  Even the so-called Enlightenment came about within the framework of Biblical morality, and the strong moral principles contained within our Constitution are a direct result of that Christian framework.

Because of that, American Christians were strong proponents of education, charitable endeavors, and above all, LIBERTY.

As far as I'm concerned, although I am about as religious as your typical American football watching, couch-potato, it is clear from history and a look around the world that there is an obvious link between Christianity and economic and political freedom.  Who am I going to believe?  Dexter or my lying eyes?

[musiclady]

That epiphany about rights and liberties happened a great while after Christianity hit the scene. I think the idea of inalienable rights was more of an evolution of culture/thought rather than something introduced by Christianity. Christianity is not what lead to us being free.

How is it, then, that the ONLY country founded on Christian principles in history, is also the ONLY country founded on religious liberty?

[Dexter]

It was not biblical per se, but definitely cultural, and heavily influenced by British protestant tradition.  Hence, its evolution is inexorably tied to Christianity.  I think there is even a little schism between Catholics and protestants in terms of how they view rights.  People like Russell Kirk and William F Buckley, who were both Catholics, were far less libertarian, and led modern day conservatism toward a more traditionalist orientation.

I think inalienable rights would have become a thing regardless of Christianity. I'm curious to know if you too think India's problems would magically be solved by adopting a better religion.

[bkepley]

I think inalienable rights would have become a thing regardless of Christianity. I'm curious to know if you too think India's problems would magically be solved by adopting a better religion.

In my opinion if they adopted Christianity seriously over time there would be serious improvement economically and there's nothing magical about it.

[DCPatriot]

Back to the subject........... India is entrenched in poverty as a direct result of their non-caring, caste controlled, restrictive and closed religion.... Hinduism.

How can one take India seriously, when cows are allowed to be considered as deities?

Yesterday, Mark Steyn was speaking about the influence of Great Britain on India....

Back in the day, when an Indian belonging to a certain religious sect passed, it was custom that the wife was also burned alive.

The English governor, when challenged about the barbarity of such a deed being "custom", he said, fine, go ahead with it and I will hang every man that's involved in the barbarity.

They dropped the custom. 

[Dexter]

How is it, then, that the ONLY country founded on Christian principles in history, is also the ONLY country founded on religious liberty?

Lots of countries exercise religious liberty. They weren't founded on it because their countries existed long before the United States and long before the concept of religious liberty.

[musiclady]

Lots of countries exercise religious liberty. They weren't founded on it because their countries existed long before the United States and long before the concept of religious liberty.

The only country founded on religious liberty was America.  The only country founded on Christian principles was America.

Those are the facts.  Contort them all you want, but it doesn't change was is.

[musiclady]

As far as I'm concerned, although I am about as religious as your typical American football watching, couch-potato, it is clear from history and a look around the world that there is an obvious link between Christianity and economic and political freedom.  Who am I going to believe?  Dexter or my lying eyes?

That's probably because you're not working desperately to deny the obvious in order to support your anti-Christian world view.

[Dexter]

That's probably because you're not working desperately to deny the obvious in order to support your anti-Christian world view.

While discussing religion on the bipartisan debate forums I use I often find myself constructing arguments to defend Christians from obnoxious atheists that have nothing but negative and insulting things to say. You don't understand me at all if you think I have an anti-Christian world view.

[musiclady]

How can one take India seriously, when cows are allowed to be considered as deities?

Yesterday, Mark Steyn was speaking about the influence of Great Britain on India....

Back in the day, when an Indian belonging to a certain religious sect passed, it was custom that the wife was also burned alive.

The English governor, when challenged about the barbarity of such a deed being "custom", he said, fine, go ahead with it and I will hang every man that's involved in the barbarity.

They dropped the custom.

Yes, that was part of the Hindu custom that the wife would go immediately to heaven if she was burned with her husband.

Just the same as Christian customs, right??   

[musiclady]

While discussing religion on the bipartisan debate forums I use I often find myself constructing arguments to defend Christians from obnoxious atheists that have nothing but negative and insulting things to say. You don't understand me at all if you think I have an anti-Christian world view.

Here's another fact for you to try to squeeze into your closed mind....

Female infanticide.......... WIDESPREAD custom in Hindu tradition. (From a liberal site, Wiki)....

India[edit]
Main article: Female infanticide in India

The dowry system in India is one given reason for female infanticide; over a time period spanning centuries it has become embedded within Indian culture. Although the state has taken steps[c] to abolish the dowry system, the practice persists, and for poorer families in rural regions female infanticide and gender selective abortion is attributed to the fear of being unable to raise a suitable dowry and then being socially ostracized.[18]

In 1857, John Cave-Brown documented for the first time the practice of female infanticide among the Jats in the Punjab region. Data from the census during the colonial period and from 2001 propose that the Jat have practiced female infanticide for 150 years. In the Gujarat region, the first cited examples of discrepancies in the sex ratio among Lewa Patidars and Kanbis dates from 1847.[19][20]

In 1789 during British colonial rule in India the British discovered that female infanticide in Uttar Pradesh was openly acknowledged. A letter from a magistrate who was stationed in the North West of India during this period spoke of the fact that for several hundred years no daughter had ever been raised in the strongholds of the Rajahs of Mynpoorie. In 1845 however the ruler at that time did keep a daughter alive after a district collector named Unwin intervened.[21] A review of scholarship has shown that the majority of female infanticides in India during the colonial period occurred for the most part in the North West, and that although not all groups carried out this practice it was widespread. In 1870, after an investigation by the colonial authorities the practice was made illegal.[22]

According to women's rights activist Donna Fernandes, some practices are so deeply embedded within Indian culture it is "almost impossible to do away with them", and she has said that India is undergoing a type of "female genocide".[23] The United Nations has declared that India is the most deadly country for female children, and that in 2012 female children aged between 1 and 5 were 75 percent more likely to die as opposed to boys. The children's rights group CRY has estimated that of 12 million females born yearly in India 1 million will have died within their first year of life.[23] In the Indian state of Tamil Nadu during British rule, the practice of female infanticide in Tamil Nadu among the Kallars and the Todas was reported. More recently in June 1986 it was reported by India Today in a cover story Born to Die that female infanticide was still in use in Usilampatti in southern Tamil Nadu. The practice was mostly prevalent among the dominant caste of the region, Kallars.[24] [25]

Believe it, Dex.  Hinduism supports throwing baby girls into the Ganges.

[EC]

How can one take India seriously, when cows are allowed to be considered as deities?

Yesterday, Mark Steyn was speaking about the influence of Great Britain on India....

Back in the day, when an Indian belonging to a certain religious sect passed, it was custom that the wife was also burned alive.

The English governor, when challenged about the barbarity of such a deed being "custom", he said, fine, go ahead with it and I will hang every man that's involved in the barbarity.

They dropped the custom.

He did put it slightly more subtlely. 

When told it was the custom that the wife was put on the pyre along with her dead husband he actually replied along the lines of:

"Very well. It is our custom to hang murderers. You keep using your custom and we will keep using ours."

[musiclady]

He did put it slightly more subtlely. 

When told it was the custom that the wife was put on the pyre along with her dead husband he actually replied along the lines of:

"Very well. It is our custom to hang murderers. You keep using your custom and we will keep using ours."

I heard that.  ^-^

I guess those who committed the Hindu custom of murdering women preferred to stay alive themselves!

[Dexter]

Here's another fact for you to try to squeeze into your closed mind....

Female infanticide.......... WIDESPREAD custom in Hindu tradition. (From a liberal site, Wiki)....

Believe it, Dex.  Hinduism supports throwing baby girls into the Ganges.

It's worth noting that Hinduism was not mentioned once in the text you provided. Like I said, I don't know a lot about Hinduism. Do their religious texts condone infanticide? The text you provided suggests that it has a lot to do with the fact that they're so impoverished. They feel like they can't support girls so they do their own barbaric form of abortion. That makes me think that the economic condition of these people would lead them to do that regardless of Hinduism. Anyway, let's assume for a moment that Hinduism really is just a bad and dirty religion. I still don't believe the introduction of a new religion would change their culture. I think economic stability, education, food and plumbing would change their culture. The problems you point to are in my opinion perpetuated by poverty rather than religion.

[bkepley]

I think economic stability, education, food and plumbing would change their culture.

I think you have it backwards.  Culture creates economic stability.  Thomas Sowell points to the example of orthodox Jews who will do million dollar deals on a handshake alone ("The Economics and Politics of Race".)

[musiclady]

It's worth noting that Hinduism was not mentioned once in the text you provided. Like I said, I don't know a lot about Hinduism. Do their religious texts condone infanticide? The text you provided suggests that it has a lot to do with the fact that they're so impoverished. They feel like they can't support girls so they do their own barbaric form of abortion. That makes me think that the economic condition of these people would lead them to do that regardless of Hinduism. Anyway, let's assume for a moment that Hinduism really is just a bad and dirty religion. I still don't believe the introduction of a new religion would change their culture. I think economic stability, education, food and plumbing would change their culture. The problems you point to are in my opinion perpetuated by poverty rather than religion.

Reminder to self:  Never, EVER try to present facts to a guy whose mind is a sealed sepulchre.



You can't get through with truth to someone who refuses to think.......

I'm done, Dex.  If you want to break free from your ignorance, re-read the posts already written on this thread.

If you want to stay uninformed, just keep on keeping on........ 

[musiclady]

I think you have it backwards.  Culture creates economic stability.  Thomas Sowell points to the example of orthodox Jews who will do million dollar deals on a handshake alone ("The Economics and Politics of Race".)

Of course he has it backwards.  Without a stable culture, all the goodies in the world don't help.

All you have to do is look at American inner cities and you see it exhibited in spades.

The left has destroyed the culture of the black family, and no matter how much 'plumbing' they get from the government, there is both instability and crime (and thanks to Margaret Sanger, infanticide).

Without a moral culture, education, food, money are thrown into the proverbial Ganges.....

[musiclady]

One more thought to back up the fact that Hinduism IS the problem.....

Our daughter spent a year in southern India helping to free slaves (more slavery there than anywhere at any point in history).  We spent some time in India visiting her when she was there.

But she went back on a mission trip later to an special school for girls who had been either left for dead or abandoned by their parents BECAUSE OF HINDUISM'S attitudes toward women.

This is very real, and it, Dex, is absolutely part of the Hindu religion.

I would recommend before bloviating on either what Hinduism is and isn't, or Christianity for that matter, that you actually investigate both religions and find out what they're really about.

You have admitted to knowing nothing about Hinduism, and yet you have continued to argue that it is not the problem in India.  If I were you, I wouldn't brag about my ignorance while mocking those around you who are educated.

I don't know if you're ineducable or not, but I do know that you often preach about things you know nothing about, and that your mind is entirely closed to the truth about things you don't want to believe.

You complain when I call you a liberal, but that is the very definition of a liberal, and I will continue to point that out whenever your liberalism raises its ugly head.

"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan

What you think you know, Dex, just isn't so.....

[massadvj]

I think inalienable rights would have become a thing regardless of Christianity. I'm curious to know if you too think India's problems would magically be solved by adopting a better religion.

No, but I also do not think india's problems are or were beyond India's control.  The country was de facto communist from the moment it rejected colonialism and only recently is seeing its fundamental mistake.

[Oceander]

You think the filth is a product of their religion? It seems more likely to me that it has to do with extreme poverty and overpopulation.

Most likely.