This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie

[Godzilla]

Can you elaborate?

Hinduism believes it a holy act to bathe in the water of the Ganges river.  I think the same goes for burial, where a river burial (the cremated ashes, not the raw corpse) in the Ganges helps further one's soul along the path of reincarnation.

With 1.2 billion Indians, that will make the Ganges pretty filthy.

[Godzilla]

Yes and yes.  Religion is just the motivating force of a country.  Do you not think that North Korea would become as economically successful as South Korea if it just became more like South Korea?

South Korea is roughly half-n-half, Buddhist and Christian.

[Godzilla]

http://www.heritage.org/initiatives/first-principles/primary-sources/massachusetts-constitution

I recommend, for those whose minds are open, and for those who have not been inculcated with a Progressive revisionist history about the founding of this great nation (i.e. Dex), reading the Massachusetts Constitution.

Massachusetts was the most conservative colony, founded by the dreaded Pilgrim separatists (who, not incidentally, came to America for the very purpose of religious liberty........ gasp), and it makes very clear in its Constitution that there will be no abridgment of the freedom to worship as one pleased......... even if that wasn't the same kind of worship as the state (of Massachusetts) adopted.

Christianity and religious liberty go hand in hand.  This country was founded on the principles of liberty, which come ONLY from the Judeo-Christian culture from which our Founders emerged.  Even the so-called Enlightenment came about within the framework of Biblical morality, and the strong moral principles contained within our Constitution are a direct result of that Christian framework.

Because of that, American Christians were strong proponents of education, charitable endeavors, and above all, LIBERTY.

Christianity has not traditionally been a tolerant religion.  Furthermore, China has been more open to differing religions that most anywhere else in the world.  Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam... are all religions with large numbers of adherents in China.  And, I might point out, China has never persecuted Jews, unlike nearly every Christian nation on earth (US/Canada excepted).

They do have an issue with Islam, but it's more like Islam has an issue with China, as the Uighurs aren't happy with such religious freedom being demonstrated by Chinese Buddhists in the Uighur 'homeland'.

[Godzilla]

As far as I'm concerned, although I am about as religious as your typical American football watching, couch-potato, it is clear from history and a look around the world that there is an obvious link between Christianity and economic and political freedom.  Who am I going to believe?  Dexter or my lying eyes?

So how do you explain the incredible economies of the Han, Tang, and Song dynasties of China?  They weren't Christian.  Yet they were the largest, most prosperous, and most technologically advanced people on earth for nearly a thousand years.

[musiclady]

Christianity has not traditionally been a tolerant religion.  Furthermore, China has been more open to differing religions that most anywhere else in the world.  Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam... are all religions with large numbers of adherents in China.  And, I might point out, China has never persecuted Jews, unlike nearly every Christian nation on earth (US/Canada excepted).

They do have an issue with Islam, but it's more like Islam has an issue with China, as the Uighurs aren't happy with such religious freedom being demonstrated by Chinese Buddhists in the Uighur 'homeland'.

We were discussing the Christian basis for the founding of America, which is factual.

I understand that there is a lot of anti-Christian propaganda in the leftist world, but that doesn't change the facts.  Hinduism in India is intolerant.  Christianity in America has provided the greatest religious freedom in the history of the world.

Facts.

[Oceander]

We were discussing the Christian basis for the founding of America, which is factual.

I understand that there is a lot of anti-Christian propaganda in the leftist world, but that doesn't change the facts.  Hinduism in India is intolerant.  Christianity in America has provided the greatest religious freedom in the history of the world.

Facts.

No, America has provided the greatest religious freedom in the history of the world because of its political system, and that system in turn derives from the British.  Yes, the values of Christianity were an instrumental part of things, but they weren't the only thing and without the British innovations in self-rule, which finally found their first true flowering in the original 13 colonies, there wouldn't have been such a flowering of religious freedom.

And the fact is - yes, cold hard facts - Christianity has inspired its own fair share of oppression and bigotry.


Quite honestly, for all their terrible cooking and terrible teeth, the degree of political freedom - which is necessary for religious freedom - the world enjoys would not exist without the British.

[musiclady]

No, America has provided the greatest religious freedom in the history of the world, because of its political system, and that system in turn derives from the British.  Yes, the values of Christianity were an instrumental part of things, but they weren't the only thing and without the British innovations in self-rule, which finally found their first true flowering in the original 13 colonies, there wouldn't have been such a flowering of religious freedom.

And the fact is - yes, cold hard facts - Christianity has inspired its own fair share of oppression and bigotry.

America's political system is based on Judeo-Christian law, which was inherent in the British system as well.

The Massachusetts colony was founded precisely for the purpose of religious liberty, as has been previously stated.

As a matter of fact, everything relevant to the conversation has been previously stated, so you can just scroll back and find out whatever information you need to correct the record.

(But I'm sure Dex is happy to have the liberal secularist reinforcements arrive.  Doesn't change the facts relevant to the thread. The Hindu religion has directly led to the poverty and squalor of India.  Case made.  Good night).

[Oceander]

America's political system is based on Judeo-Christian law, which was inherent in the British system as well.

The Massachusetts colony was founded precisely for the purpose of religious liberty, as has been previously stated.

As a matter of fact, everything relevant to the conversation has been previously stated, so you can just scroll back and find out whatever information you need to correct the record.

(But I'm sure Dex is happy to have the liberal secularist reinforcements arrive.  Doesn't change the facts relevant to the thread. The Hindu religion has directly led to the poverty and squalor of India.  Case made.  Good night).

Funny thing that.  It was those same "Christians" who torched young women because in their stygian ignorance they thought them witches.  It was those same Christians who decided that you couldn't hold political office if you didn't swear allegiance to a particular Christian sect.

Communism was built on top of some very strong, true, insights about economics and human behaviour, but that fact doesn't make Communism something to praise.

And now let's pull out the mirror:  you claim that Christianity is the fount of all religious freedom, and yet here you are, slamming one religion based on your own Christian beliefs.  Physician, heal thyself.

[alicewonders]

So how do you explain the incredible economies of the Han, Tang, and Song dynasties of China?  They weren't Christian.  Yet they were the largest, most prosperous, and most technologically advanced people on earth for nearly a thousand years.

Who said Christianity is the only way?  I discussed it because I am a Christian and am familiar with the teachings.  I am not knowledgeable about all the others - but I do know that a lot of impoverished third world countries are, in part, that way because of the prevailing religion - and there are different ones.  As far as explaining the Chinese dynasties - that's above my pay grade.  We were talking about India and Hinduism, which I believe has played a part in that country's poverty. 

[alicewonders]

Funny thing that.  It was those same "Christians" who torched young women because in their stygian ignorance they thought them witches.  It was those same Christians who decided that you couldn't hold political office if you didn't swear allegiance to a particular Christian sect.

Communism was built on top of some very strong, true, insights about economics and human behaviour, but that fact doesn't make Communism something to praise.

And now let's pull out the mirror:  you claim that Christianity is the fount of all religious freedom, and yet here you are, slamming one religion based on your own Christian beliefs.  Physician, heal thyself.

I don't remember anyone claiming Christianity is the fount of ALL religious freedom!  And people burning people at the stake and the other things that you and others cite as oppressive, etc - these things were not done with Christ's blessings!  Jesus said turn the other cheek, do unto others as you would have done to you, feed and care for the poor, etc.  Christianity is the following of Jesus Christ, and these acts you all describe are NOT according to his teachings.  Anyone can pervert any religion. 

[Oceander]

Who said Christianity is the only way?  I discussed it because I am a Christian and am familiar with the teachings.  I am not knowledgeable about all the others - but I do know that a lot of impoverished third world countries are, in part, that way because of the prevailing religion - and there are different ones.  As far as explaining the Chinese dynasties - that's above my pay grade.  We were talking about India and Hinduism, which I believe has played a part in that country's poverty. 

Now that is a much more balanced point of view, and I tend to think that your take on Hinduism has some truth to it.  Hinduism is part and parcel of Indian culture, and it is the culture that informs a lot of how the people involved view things like the environment.  Part of the problem, I think, is that way back in the mists of time when Hinduism developed, there were so few people compared to today that many of the traditions of Hinduism that put stress on the environment were not practiced by enough people to have a serious impact on the environment.  That is no longer the case.

[Oceander]

I don't remember anyone claiming Christianity is the fount of ALL religious freedom!  And people burning people at the stake and the other things that you and others cite as oppressive, etc - these things were not done with Christ's blessings!  Jesus said turn the other cheek, do unto others as you would have done to you, feed and care for the poor, etc.  Christianity is the following of Jesus Christ, and these acts you all describe are NOT according to his teachings.  Anyone can pervert any religion. 

With all due respect, turning the other cheek is one thing that almost all Christians have never done.  And historically Christians in Europe did a very, very, very poor job of feeding and caring for the poor - if they'd been a little more attentive, communism and socialism, and many of the other ugly leftist abominations might not have taken hold.

[alicewonders]

With all due respect, turning the other cheek is one thing that almost all Christians have never done.  And historically Christians in Europe did a very, very, very poor job of feeding and caring for the poor - if they'd been a little more attentive, communism and socialism, and many of the other ugly leftist abominations might not have taken hold.

You know what, Oceander?  All have sinned and fall short in front of God - we are human, we have flaws and we sin.  The only perfect man to walk this earth was Jesus - that's what I believe.  We should strive for it, but God knows we will never reach perfection.  But it's OK, he still loves us. 

Why did he make humans so stupid, evil, weak?  That's the question for the ages.  I tend to think that he wanted his followers to follow him out of free will.  Someday I'll have to face my judgment and I will not feel worthy - but he loves me anyway.

[Oceander]

You know what, Oceander?  All have sinned and fall short in front of God - we are human, we have flaws and we sin.  The only perfect man to walk this earth was Jesus - that's what I believe.  We should strive for it, but God knows we will never reach perfection.  But it's OK, he still loves us. 

Why did he make humans so stupid, evil, weak?  That's the question for the ages.  I tend to think that he wanted his followers to follow him out of free will.  Someday I'll have to face my judgment and I will not feel worthy - but he loves me anyway.

I quite agree.  The same courtesy you ask for Christians should extended to people who believe other religions; too many "Christians" here refuse to do so, point blank.

[alicewonders]

I quite agree.  The same courtesy you ask for Christians should extended to people who believe other religions; too many "Christians" here refuse to do so, point blank.

Well, I try not to judge what is in other people's hearts - only God can do that.

[Oceander]

Well, I try not to judge what is in other people's hearts - only God can do that.

Again, I agree with you.  But we can judge by another's actions.

[alicewonders]

Again, I agree with you.  But we can judge by another's actions.

Yes, there is lots to condemn these days.

[Oceander]

Yes, there is lots to condemn these days.

But if we're honest, we'll judge by our own actions as well, and then cut everyone else some slack the same way we'd like to be cut some slack.

[DCPatriot]

I quite agree.  The same courtesy you ask for Christians should extended to people who believe other religions; too many "Christians" here refuse to do so, point blank.

Are you saying that believing, say, in the Blessed Trinity is tantamount to believing that a bovine is a deity?  Or bathing in raw sewage?

Are you suggesting that turning the other cheek and loving your enemies is the same as cutting off somebody's head or crucifying a child?

Geesh!   Put the bottle down and back away slowly....

[alicewonders]

But if we're honest, we'll judge by our own actions as well, and then cut everyone else some slack the same way we'd like to be cut some slack.

I make it a habit to do that, but it is hard to cut beheaders any slack!

[Oceander]

I make it a habit to do that, but it is hard to cut beheaders any slack!

I have to agree.

[Oceander]

Are you saying that believing, say, in the Blessed Trinity is tantamount to believing that a bovine is a deity?  Or bathing in raw sewage?

Are you suggesting that turning the other cheek and loving your enemies is the same as cutting off somebody's head or crucifying a child?

Geesh!   Put the bottle down and back away slowly....

Funny you should mention the trinity; one of the greatest pieces of post-hoc rationalization there ever was.

[DCPatriot]

Funny you should mention the trinity; one of the greatest pieces of post-hoc rationalization there ever was.

Love your liberal tactics of debate whenever you've been cornered.   

[famousdayandyear]

Funny thing.  Always proven true.  Present a liberal with a reasonable, logical point of view, and they divert.  Look a squirrel!

[alicewonders]

Funny you should mention the trinity; one of the greatest pieces of post-hoc rationalization there ever was.

The Holy Trinity is a beautiful thing.