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Online Fishrrman

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Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« on: August 27, 2015, 02:06:02 pm »
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/252066-pollsters-dumbfounded-by-trump

Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
By Ben Kamisar
August 27, 2015 @ 6:00am

Polling experts agree on one thing when it comes to Donald Trump’s presidential run: They’ve never seen anything like it.

The businessman’s dominance of the Republican presidential race is forcing experienced political hands to question whether everything they know about winning the White House is wrong.

The shocks have come in quick succession, with the businessman first rocketing to the top of national polls, and then taking double-digit leads in the early voting states of Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina.
In another act of political magic, Trump managed to flip his favorability rating from negative to positive in one poll during the span of a month — a feat that Monmouth University’s Patrick Murray called “astounding.”

“That defies any rule in presidential politics that I’ve ever seen,” Murray, the director Monmouth’s Polling Institute, told The Hill.

Trump’s favorability rose from 20 percent to 52 percent among Republican voters between July and August, Monmouth found.

While a later CNN/ORC poll did not find a similar shift in Trump’s favorability, the Monmouth data was yet another sign that he is a candidate to be reckoned with.

“Throw out the rulebook when it comes to Trump, that’s not even in the parameters of what we see as unusual,” Murray said.

Trump’s dominance of the race has flustered the Republican field, with many of the candidates trying their best to bring him back to earth.

But as the attacks on Trump have intensified, so has his level of support.

Polls released Tuesday show Trump lapping the field in New Hampshire, where he leads his nearest Republican rival by 24 percentage points. The story is the same in South Carolina, where the latest poll gave him a 15-point edge.

While political scientists and other experts continue to insist Trump will not win the Republican nomination, he’s converted at least one high-profile skeptic.

GOP pollster Frank Luntz had dismissed Trump from the start, and declared after the first presidential debate that his campaign was doomed.

But after convening a focus group Monday evening where Trump supporters showed an unflappable allegiance, Luntz changed his tune.

“This is real. I’m having trouble processing,” he said, according to Time.

“I want to put the Republican leadership behind this mirror and let them see. They need to wake up. They don’t realize how the grassroots have abandoned them,” he added.

Polling experts, including Marist’s Lee Miringoff, say Trump is weathering political storms that would doom other candidates because his appeal is more about attitude than ideology.
 
While many of Trump’s supporters identify as strong conservatives, some of the policies he’s proposed — including increased spending on the border and higher taxes on the wealthy — have prompted accusations from rivals like former Fla. Gov. Jeb Bush that he isn’t a true conservative.
 
Miringoff said doesn’t expect those attacks to stick.
 
“This is the next step of the Tea Party — someone who can tap into the sentiment that people have about all the frustration and turn it into ‘We are going to make America great again,’ ” he said.

“This is not a policy paper.”

But even if Trump is rewriting the political playbook, can he go the distance?

Experts note that the last presidential nominating season was full of booms and busts, with Herman Cain, Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry all flaming out after time at the top of the polls.

The next round of surveys on the Republican race will go a long way toward showing whether Trump has staying power, pollsters say.

“It will take another three or four weeks before we realize what happened, whether he can stick around or if his support is eroding,” Murray said.

“We are at the turning point, the eye of the storm, but we don’t know how much longer the storm is going to continue.”

Experts see several dangers ahead for Trump.

For one, he tends to fare better with broader samples than groups of likely primary voters, as pointed out by The New York Times.

Second, there’s no guarantee that Trump’s summer surge will translate to action at the ballot box.

“The percentage who go to caucus events and vote in primaries in Iowa and New Hampshire are really quite conservative and ideological. It remains to be seen if he can get impassioned people out to the polls,” said Rutgers political science professor Cliff Zukin.

“Polls are general, and the electorate that turns out to those events will be different than those who pollsters are contacting now.”

There’s also the question of how much the size of the Republican field is helping Trump, with voter loyalties now splintered among 17 major candidates. Should some of them drop out, Republican voters could coalesce around an alternative.

Miringoff said a narrowing of the field could help candidates such as Bush, Ohio Gov. John Kasich and Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker rally establishment support.

That’s mainly because many voters still view Trump as unable to win in the general election. Most polls show Trump trailing in a matchup against Hillary Clinton, which his rivals have seized on to paint him as unelectable.

For now, Trump is flying high.

“Staying power is there for the immediate and moderate future, there’s no doubt about that. He’s the buzz of the campaign,” Miringhoff said. 

“I can’t imagine the mistakes he would make that would disqualify him.”

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2015, 02:28:03 pm »


Apparently, so are Luis, Once-Ler, Godzilla, Bkepley, Sinkspur, and Kevin Davis...to name a few.     :chairbang:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

bkepley

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2015, 02:29:36 pm »

Apparently, so are Luis, Once-Ler, Godzilla, Bkepley, Sinkspur, and Kevin Davis...to name a few.     :chairbang:

More like disgusted. :chairbang:

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2015, 02:31:13 pm »
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline famousdayandyear

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Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2015, 04:09:48 pm »
One point in the article is really significant - if a bit buried - and on a personal level it mirrors my own perception and my thoughts about both Trump and the other candidates, particularly Bush: as the attacks on Trump have become more vitriolic and omnipresent (such as the anti-Trump mania - and I think it's fair to call it mania - right here in the Briefing Room), I have become more and more inclined to defend his presence in the race and open to his unorthodox method. 

Perhaps it is because it is so obvious that the Republican elite/establishment is so horrified and caught flat-footed by something they can't control (which is so refreshing and such a good thing for everyone who is not a part of that elite), maybe it's because Political Big Money is likewise stymied and amazed (how hilarious is it that the uber-rich, well-heeled money that is used to controlling the party is attacking Trump because he too is rich?!), or maybe because it is just so terribly obvious that the Political Big Money/elite/establishment/entitlement darling - Jeb Bush - is such a horrible, dry, dull, uninteresting, lousy candidate. 

But something has a lot of people, like me, who have always before thought of Trump in any and every way as a joke (and a bad one) now viewing him as someone who is providing a massive megaphone to give voice to the idea that there is something so terribly wrong with what has become American Big Politics that the country itself has become the very antithesis of what it was and what we want it to be.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 04:15:26 pm by Scottftlc »
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline olde north church

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2015, 04:10:46 pm »
1.  Luntz and Bush wouldn't know conservative if it bit them in the ass.

2.  The Beltway GOP and minions will maintain their "dishonesty is the second best policy" program, doing to what the GOP Establishment what Obama has done to the Democrat party.

3.  Luntz, Rove, et al, please practice:  "Would you like fries with that?"

 :silly:
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2015, 04:11:29 pm »
One point in the article is really significant - if a bit buried - and on a personal level it mirrors my own perception and my thoughts about both Trump and the other candidates, particularly Bush: as the attacks on Trump have become more vitriolic and omnipresent (such as the anti-Trump mania - and I think it's fair to call it mania - right here in the Briefing Room), I have become more and more inclined to defend his presence in the race and open to his unorthodox method. 

Perhaps it is because it is so obvious that the Republican elite/establishment is so horrified and caught flat-footed by something they can't control (which is so refreshing and such a good thing for everyone who is not a part of that elite), maybe it's because Political Big Money is likewise stymied and amazed (how hilarious is it that the uber-rich, well-heeled money that is used to controlling the party is attacking Trump because he too is rich?!), or maybe because it is just so terribly obvious that the Political Big Money/elite/establishment/entitlement darling - Jeb Bush - is such a horrible, dry, dull, uninteresting, lousy candidate. 

But something has a lot of people, like me, who have always before thought of Trump in any and every way as a joke (and a bad one) as someone who is providing a massive megaphone to give voice to the idea that there is something so terribly wrong with what has become American Big Politics that the country itself has become the very antithesis of what it was and what we want it to be.

You're not the only one.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 04:14:13 pm by olde north church »
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

bkepley

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2015, 04:20:43 pm »
One point in the article is really significant - if a bit buried - and on a personal level it mirrors my own perception and my thoughts about both Trump and the other candidates, particularly Bush: as the attacks on Trump have become more vitriolic and omnipresent (such as the anti-Trump mania - and I think it's fair to call it mania - right here in the Briefing Room), I have become more and more inclined to defend his presence in the race and open to his unorthodox method. 

Perhaps it is because it is so obvious that the Republican elite/establishment is so horrified and caught flat-footed by something they can't control (which is so refreshing and such a good thing for everyone who is not a part of that elite), maybe it's because Political Big Money is likewise stymied and amazed (how hilarious is it that the uber-rich, well-heeled money that is used to controlling the party is attacking Trump because he too is rich?!), or maybe because it is just so terribly obvious that the Political Big Money/elite/establishment/entitlement darling - Jeb Bush - is such a horrible, dry, dull, uninteresting, lousy candidate. 

But something has a lot of people, like me, who have always before thought of Trump in any and every way as a joke (and a bad one) now viewing him as someone who is providing a massive megaphone to give voice to the idea that there is something so terribly wrong with what has become American Big Politics that the country itself has become the very antithesis of what it was and what we want it to be.

Be a damn shame if all that was left was the Democrats vs. a party of white xenophobes who really have nothing in common with the conservatives who took over the party in 1963.

Offline MBB1984

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2015, 04:39:50 pm »
Be a damn shame if all that was left was the Democrats vs. a party of white xenophobes who really have nothing in common with the conservatives who took over the party in 1963.


The GOP has become nothing more than cross burning, Ku Klux Klan Members!  They are RACIST, RACIST, RACIST, RACIST, RACIST, RACIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you do not believe it ask Obama, Al Sharpton, Jorge Ramos and Black Lives Matter!

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2015, 04:43:15 pm »
One point in the article is really significant - if a bit buried - and on a personal level it mirrors my own perception and my thoughts about both Trump and the other candidates, particularly Bush: as the attacks on Trump have become more vitriolic and omnipresent (such as the anti-Trump mania - and I think it's fair to call it mania - right here in the Briefing Room), I have become more and more inclined to defend his presence in the race and open to his unorthodox method. 

Perhaps it is because it is so obvious that the Republican elite/establishment is so horrified and caught flat-footed by something they can't control (which is so refreshing and such a good thing for everyone who is not a part of that elite), maybe it's because Political Big Money is likewise stymied and amazed (how hilarious is it that the uber-rich, well-heeled money that is used to controlling the party is attacking Trump because he too is rich?!), or maybe because it is just so terribly obvious that the Political Big Money/elite/establishment/entitlement darling - Jeb Bush - is such a horrible, dry, dull, uninteresting, lousy candidate. 

But something has a lot of people, like me, who have always before thought of Trump in any and every way as a joke (and a bad one) now viewing him as someone who is providing a massive megaphone to give voice to the idea that there is something so terribly wrong with what has become American Big Politics that the country itself has become the very antithesis of what it was and what we want it to be.

Thanks Scott - you were speaking for me as well.  I feel the same way! 


Exhibit A:

Quote
Be a damn shame if all that was left was the Democrats vs. a party of white xenophobes who really have nothing in common with the conservatives who took over the party in 1963.
Don't tread on me.   8888madkitty

We told you Trump would win - bigly!

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2015, 05:04:12 pm »
Be a damn shame if all that was left was the Democrats vs. a party of white xenophobes who really have nothing in common with the conservatives who took over the party in 1963.

You are missing it entirely.  It has nothing to do with xenophobia, or whiteness. What it is about is a rejection of politics as usual...and candidates as usual...and the political elite who have led us to this place in American life where all that matters is victimhood, guilt and making damned certain that the professional political elite are secure and in control for life.  It's a little tiny bit of Hunger Games.  It's rebellion.  It happened on the left eight years ago and the Republicans certainly haven't been effective at anything other then making people aware that they aren't Democrats...what that distinction means in terms of American life is far from clear.  "I'm not them" isn't going to carry much weight in a national election where they will be wowing people with new socialist giveaways.  So rebellion is now happening on the right.  If you put Jeb Bush up, everyone knows with absolute certainty that he'll get 46 or 47 % of the vote - maybe a wee bit less.  That will keep the Republican hierarchy satisfied. It'll keep the money interests on the line.  But those of us thinking that we need something different...something new...don't have a dog in that fight.
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2015, 05:07:33 pm »
Quote
“I  (Luntz) want to put the Republican leadership behind this mirror and let them see. They need to wake up. They don’t realize how the grassroots have abandoned them,” he added.

Maybe the Republican leadership should read this site more often.

Offline aligncare

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2015, 05:12:44 pm »
Be a damn shame if all that was left was the Democrats vs. a party of white xenophobes who really have nothing in common with the conservatives who took over the party in 1963.

Xenophobe is a progressive's word and concept when said about our American experience.

I'll explain. Let's say you move to France, become a citizen, vote there, live the rest of your life in France. And on your death bed, you would still not be considered French.

But, come to America, and when you lower your right hand after taking the pledge at the citizenship ceremony, the judge says, "Congratulations! You are an American."

See the difference? We all come from somewhere else if you go back far enough into your family background. So, you see, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with xenophobia.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 05:38:44 pm by aligncare »

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2015, 05:41:19 pm »
So rebellion is now happening on the right.  If you put Jeb Bush up, everyone knows with absolute certainty that he'll get 46 or 47 % of the vote - maybe a wee bit less.  That will keep the Republican hierarchy satisfied. It'll keep the money interests on the line.  But those of us thinking that we need something different...something new...don't have a dog in that fight.

Is it your contention Bush could only get 47% but that Trump can get MORE than that?

I get the part of your analysis for the rebellion on the right. But if the leader of the rebellion cannot win, it is for nothing.

Bottom line: Does Trump have a GREATER Probability of defeating the democrat?

BTW Trump is NOT the only "good" candidate on the GOP side.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2015, 06:01:32 pm »
Is it your contention Bush could only get 47% but that Trump can get MORE than that?

I get the part of your analysis for the rebellion on the right. But if the leader of the rebellion cannot win, it is for nothing.

Bottom line: Does Trump have a GREATER Probability of defeating the democrat?

BTW Trump is NOT the only "good" candidate on the GOP side.

I agree completely that Trump is not the only other candidate. I am not saying absolutely that it must be Trump carrying that banner of outsider...but someone needs to carry it.

I think Trump is more likely to get above 50 than Bush is...but that is because I am certain Bush cannot possibly get there - against anyone.  While Bush would most likely get somewhere in 40s, which not all Republicans would likely achieve...he is also the least likely of ANY Republican to actually win.  He has money and pedigree but he also has the biggest turn-offs and no personality to overcome them.

I would say yes, Trump has a better chance than Bush of beating a Democrat...but that is because ANYONE and everyone on the Republican side has a better chance of winning than Bush does.
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline olde north church

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2015, 06:07:46 pm »
Just finished watching Trump in Greenville SC.  My wife wanted to go over as we aren't to far away.  The line around the center started @ 8:00 am for a 12:30 pm (or so) event.
The man is getting polished with every event.  I've gone from "liking to what he's doing but I would never vote for him" to "I might consider it".  I like that the "insiders" hate him/fear him because he's a wild card.  Lenin was a wild card when they release him from a Swiss prison and sent him back to Russia.
The reasons I wouldn't consider him:
1.  The current Congress and Senators could, well, would get in his way.
2.  Some politicians are required just as carry over.
3.  How to undo the bureaucracy?
4.  Is this a "phase" for him or is he in for the whole enchilada.
5.  The "unknown" variable.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline aligncare

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2015, 06:16:04 pm »
I agree completely that Trump is not the only other candidate. I am not saying absolutely that it must be Trump carrying that banner of outsider...but someone needs to carry it.

I think Trump is more likely to get above 50 than Bush is...but that is because I am certain Bush cannot possibly get there - against anyone.  While Bush would most likely get somewhere in 40s, which not all Republicans would likely achieve...he is also the least likely of ANY Republican to actually win.  He has money and pedigree but he also has the biggest turn-offs and no personality to overcome them.

I would say yes, Trump has a better chance than Bush of beating a Democrat...but that is because ANYONE and everyone on the Republican side has a better chance of winning than Bush does.

I disagree. I think if Trump gets the nomination he wins the general hands-down. It's the getting the nomination part that's fraught with peril for his campaign. Once he's in the general against the hated democrats--he wins easy. Just my humble opinion.

Online Fishrrman

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2015, 07:09:09 pm »
bk wrote above (snarling as he did so):
[[  a party of white xenophobes who really have nothing in common with the conservatives who took over the party in 1963.]]

This in itself shows how little you know about "conservatives".

The "conservatives" of the party -were- dominated by whites and were somewhat nativist and "xenophobic" UNTIL William F. Buckley and others like him tried to purge out the old wing in the early sixties.

Thus "the new conservative".

Well, I ain't one of them.
I want to see the newcons tossed back out, and the old "nativist nationalist" conservatives again dominant (probably wishful thinking).

So call me a "white xenophobe" if you wish. Add "nationalist" and "racialist" to that, I don't mind at all.

I'll just grin right back at you!

bkepley

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2015, 07:12:59 pm »
bk wrote above (snarling as he did so):
[[  a party of white xenophobes who really have nothing in common with the conservatives who took over the party in 1963.]]

This in itself shows how little you know about "conservatives".

The "conservatives" of the party -were- dominated by whites and were somewhat nativist and "xenophobic" UNTIL William F. Buckley and others like him tried to purge out the old wing in the early sixties.

Thus "the new conservative".

Well, I ain't one of them.
I want to see the newcons tossed back out, and the old "nativist nationalist" conservatives again dominant (probably wishful thinking).

So call me a "white xenophobe" if you wish. Add "nationalist" and "racialist" to that, I don't mind at all.

I'll just grin right back at you!

Ah..so that's why the wingnuts hate Buckley so much.  I thought it was because he dissed the Ayn Rand and/or the John Birch Society.

Offline raml

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2015, 07:18:31 pm »
I agree with Scottftlc who seems to be someone here who is logical and makes sense. I am a bit like olde north church though I also liked how Trump was stirring things up but was no a fan to the point of wanting to vote for him but lately I am changing my mind on that.




Offline aligncare

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2015, 08:20:56 pm »
I agree with Scottftlc who seems to be someone here who is logical and makes sense. I am a bit like olde north church though I also liked how Trump was stirring things up but was no a fan to the point of wanting to vote for him but lately I am changing my mind on that.

He kind of grows on you. Once you get past the way he says things--words and delivery--and scoot past the monumental ego and Las Vegas persona, his ideas are pretty good!  :whistle:

bkepley

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2015, 08:25:07 pm »
He kind of grows on you. Once you get past the way he says things--words and delivery--and scoot past the monumental ego and Las Vegas persona, his ideas are pretty good!  :whistle:

What ideas?  He's going to find really terrific people to solve all the problems?  Dees Nuts probably already had that idea first.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 08:25:29 pm by bkepley »

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2015, 08:29:56 pm »
What ideas?  He's going to find really terrific people to solve all the problems?  Dees Nuts probably already had that idea first.

How successful is Deez Nuts?   How many BILLIONS is his 'empire' worth?
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Relic

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Re: Pollsters dumbfounded by Trump
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2015, 08:34:49 pm »
One point in the article is really significant - if a bit buried - and on a personal level it mirrors my own perception and my thoughts about both Trump and the other candidates, particularly Bush: as the attacks on Trump have become more vitriolic and omnipresent (such as the anti-Trump mania - and I think it's fair to call it mania - right here in the Briefing Room), I have become more and more inclined to defend his presence in the race and open to his unorthodox method. 

Perhaps it is because it is so obvious that the Republican elite/establishment is so horrified and caught flat-footed by something they can't control (which is so refreshing and such a good thing for everyone who is not a part of that elite), maybe it's because Political Big Money is likewise stymied and amazed (how hilarious is it that the uber-rich, well-heeled money that is used to controlling the party is attacking Trump because he too is rich?!), or maybe because it is just so terribly obvious that the Political Big Money/elite/establishment/entitlement darling - Jeb Bush - is such a horrible, dry, dull, uninteresting, lousy candidate. 

But something has a lot of people, like me, who have always before thought of Trump in any and every way as a joke (and a bad one) now viewing him as someone who is providing a massive megaphone to give voice to the idea that there is something so terribly wrong with what has become American Big Politics that the country itself has become the very antithesis of what it was and what we want it to be.

I feel the same way, on all points.