Author Topic: Levin: 'Completely False' That Children Born to Illegals Have Constitutional Right to Citizenship  (Read 5686 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277

So what types of persons are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?

§ 515.329 Person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
The term person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States includes:
(a) Any individual, wherever located, who is a citizen or resident of the United States;
(b) Any person within the United States as defined in § 515.330;
(c) Any corporation, partnership, association, or other organization organized under the laws of the United States or of any State, territory, possession, or district of the United States; and
(d) Any corporation, partnership, association, or other organization, wherever organized or doing business, that is owned or controlled by persons specified in paragraphs (a) or (c) of this section.]
[50 FR 27437, July 3, 1985, as amended at 68 FR 14145, Mar. 24, 2003]

§ 515.330 Person within the United States.
(a) The term person within the United States, includes:
(1) Any person, wheresoever located, who is a resident of the United States;
(2) Any person actually within the United States;
(3) Any corporation, partnership, association, or other organization organized under the laws of the United States or of any State, territory, possession, or district of the United States; and
(4) Any corporation, partnership, association, or other organization, wherever organized or doing business, which is owned or controlled by any person or persons specified in paragraphs (a)(1) or (a)(3) of this section.

What persons are NOT subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?


31 CFR Chapter V - OFFICE OF FOREIGN ASSETS CONTROL, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

31 CFR Part 515 - CUBAN ASSETS CONTROL REGULATIONS

31 CFR 515.101 - Relation of this part to other laws and regulations.

§ 515.101 Relation of this part to other laws and regulations.

(a) This part is separate from, and independent of, the other parts of this chapter with the exception of part 501 of this chapter, the recordkeeping and reporting requirements and license application and other procedures of which apply to this part. No license or authorization contained in or issued pursuant to one of those parts, or any other provision of law, authorizes any transaction prohibited by this part.



The sections you quoted don't even apply to the rest of Chapter V... much less to the 14th Amendment.

You're misrepresenting the law again Luis... shocking, I know...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Mark Levin and Landmark Legal foundation, founded in 1976 by Mr. Levin, files briefs in cases before the Supreme Court.

Landmark Legal is a 501(c)(3) non-profit and "America's oldest conservative, non-profit, public interest law firm."

http://www.landmarklegal.org/desktopdefault.aspx

He writes many well researched, footnoted and scholarly best selling books on American history and the constitution of the United States.

He's also a nationally syndicated radio talk show host with millions of daily listeners.

And you treat him as if he were just some anonymous poster and amateur legal beagle with a keyboard whose day job is working for a grocery and restaurant supplier in Florida.

He's wrong.

I posted USC codes and statutes which clearly prove that he is wrong.

He knows this and he's still writing and spouting crap that's clearly wrong.

He quotes people who support his viewpoint, but fails to mention that during congressional debates, both proponents and opponents of the citizenship clause agreed with the fact that the 14th Amendment would create birthright citizenship for the U.S. born children of foreign nationals. For example, Pennsylvania Sen. Edgar Cowan opposed the clause precisely because it would extend birthright citizenship to the U.S.-born children of Chinese laborers and other noncitizens who “owe [the U.S.] no allegiance [and] who pretend to owe none.”

Cowan’s opposition was met with the following response from California Sen. John Conness: “The proposition before us … relates simply in that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens…. I am in favor of doing so…. We are entirely ready to accept the provision proposed in this constitutional amendment.”

Those who objected to the idea that the Amendment could and would grant birthright citizenship to the U.S. born children of foreign nationals lost the debate and the Amendment was ratified as written:

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.”

Very plain English.

In addition, the SCOTUS read that very plain English, and issued their 6-2 findings in Wong Kim, saying that the "14th Amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory … including all children here born of resident aliens.”

The Court took up the question again in Plyler v. Doe and the majority held (the dissent agreed with this point) that the XIV Amendment extends to anyone who is subject to the laws of a state, ”including the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens."

The Court again took up the question of birthright citizenship in INS v. Rios-Pineda (1985), and unanimously agreed that a child born to an undocumented immigrant was in fact a U.S. citizen.

Now, Levin's credentials are impressive, but I would imagine that the credentials of all those Supreme Court Justices who have heard the arguments and reached their decisions are equally as impressive, then you add to those impressive credentials their seat in the highest court of the nation, and those guys have disagreed with Levin time and again.

What's ironic about this position you've taken is how in this forum the SCOTUS is disparaged time and time again, and no one rises up to defend their honor by pointing out their credentials and just how much of a deeper understanding of the law they have than a bunch of anonymous posters on some Internet site who disagree with their finding.

No one of course challenges them when the ruling is Hobby Lobby or  National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) v. Noel Canning.

So if you, or anyone here, want to stand on Levin's credentials to argue that based on those credentials his opinion on this issue can't be challenged, than I'd like to point out that his point of view lost in the Congressional debate surrounding the enactment of the Amendment, that Congress knew that the Amendment as written would set in place birthright citizenship and that the U.S. born children of foreign nationals would be born U.S. citizens, and that since then, at least 18 Supreme Court Justices have disagreed with him, and their credentials are equal... no, greater than his.

I'm not sure what you mean by anonymous poster, but I am using my name when I post.

When you look at your Driver's License, does it say "aligncare" something or other?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
31 CFR Chapter V - OFFICE OF FOREIGN ASSETS CONTROL, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

31 CFR Part 515 - CUBAN ASSETS CONTROL REGULATIONS

31 CFR 515.101 - Relation of this part to other laws and regulations.

§ 515.101 Relation of this part to other laws and regulations.

(a) This part is separate from, and independent of, the other parts of this chapter with the exception of part 501 of this chapter, the recordkeeping and reporting requirements and license application and other procedures of which apply to this part. No license or authorization contained in or issued pursuant to one of those parts, or any other provision of law, authorizes any transaction prohibited by this part.



The sections you quoted don't even apply to the rest of Chapter V... much less to the 14th Amendment.

You're misrepresenting the law again Luis... shocking, I know...

It applies across the board.

Persons other than those covered under the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations and 22 U.S. Code § 254a are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

If that weren't the case, the man who murdered Kathryn Steinle could not be charged with a crime.

You cannot have it both ways.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,783
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
It applies across the board.

Persons other than those covered under the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations and 22 U.S. Code § 254a are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

If that weren't the case, the man who murdered Kathryn Steinle could not be charged with a crime.

You cannot have it both ways.

You don't seem to understand that the 14th amendment according to the people who wrote it,  requires that one be subject SOLELY to the jurisdiction of the United States and not owe any allegiance to a foreign power.

Reviewing the intended purpose behind the words of the clause by both Sen. Howard and Sen. Trumbull, who were responsible for the drafting of the citizenship clause, clearly revealed the intended effect of the clause; leavening little doubt to why justice Gray desired to avoid the legislative history of this language. Howard presents a major hurdle for the majority when he specifically declared the clause to be “virtue of natural law and national law,” never once making any reference to England’s common law doctrine. Perhaps this is why Gray wasted much of his commentary along common law themes.

An Act of April 9, 1866 established for the first time a national law that read, “all persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” Rep. John A. Bingham, chief architect of the 14th Amendments first section, said this national law (Section 1992 of the US Revised Statutes) was “simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” If this law was simply to reaffirm the common law doctrine then the condition of the parents would be totally irrelevant.

Sen. Trumbull, who was the author of this national law, said it was his intention “to make citizens of everybody born in the United States who owe allegiance to the United States.” Additionally, he added if a “negro or white man belonged to a foreign Government he would not be a citizen.”

However, Gray insists Trumbull really meant to grant citizenship to everyone born due only to the fact they were born on American soil. Moreover, if everyone owed allegiance by simply being on American soil, then what was the purpose of having aliens renounce their allegiance to other countries and pledge their allegiance to this one for purposes of becoming naturalized? Perhaps the true answer is because locality itself was never enough to confer complete allegiance.

Speaking of the Fourteenth Amendment, Sen. Trumbull goes on to declare: “The provision is, that ‘all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.’ That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.“

Sen. Howard follows up by stating, “the word jurisdiction, as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, coextensive in all respects with the constitutional power of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now.”

The Supreme Court had earlier discussed the meaning of the 14th amendment’s citizenship clause in the Slaughterhouse cases and noted, “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.”

Even the dissenting minority affirmed that the result of the citizenship clause was designed to ensure that all persons born within the United States were both citizens of the United States and the state in which they resided, provided they were not at the time subjects of any foreign power. The United States Attorney General (who was a Republican Senator involved in the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866) in 1873 ruled the word “jurisdiction” under the Fourteenth Amendment to mean:

Quote
The word “jurisdiction” must be understood to mean absolute and complete jurisdiction, such as the United States had over its citizens before the adoption of this amendment… Aliens, among whom are persons born here and naturalized abroad, dwelling or being in this country, are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States only to a limited extent. Political and military rights and duties do not pertain to them. (14 Op. Atty-Gen. 300.)


In Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94, the court was specifically asked to address “subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” and held it meant:

Quote
The persons declared to be citizens are “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” The evident meaning of these last words is not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction and owing them (U.S.) direct and immediate allegiance. And the words relate to the time of birth in the one case, as they do to the time of naturalization in the other. Persons not thus subject to the jurisdiction of the United States at the time of birth cannot become so afterwards except by being naturalized, either individually, as by proceedings under the naturalization acts, or collectively, as by the force of a treaty by which foreign territory is acquired.


Here we have the framers, the Attorney General and the Elk court all agreeing that “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” means political attachment. The question begs, what happened to the adopted meaning?

In Wong Kim Ark the court made a weak attempt to marginalize its holding in Elk on the grounds that decision “concerned only members of the Indian tribes within the United States, and had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of Caucasian, African or Mongolian descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.”

In truth the adjudicated meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” in Elk did in fact have the “tendency to deny citizenship to children” because it applied to all persons born whether Indian, Asian or any other race. The real question is which court was the question of “subject to the jurisdiction” part of the court’s holding?

The answer is, Elk. In Wong Kim Ark the definition of “subject to the jurisdiction” was not part of the holding but only passing dicta.

The definition for “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” handed down in Elk posed a real problem for Wong Kim Ark because Wong’s parents did not owe the United States direct and complete allegiance nor did they fall within the political jurisdiction. To try and sidestep the judicial meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” found in Elk, Gray attempts to obfuscate the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” using dicta:

Quote
The real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, “All persons born in the United States” by the addition “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases — children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State…


Unfortunately for Gray, he can’t unmake history nor can he hide from what he had ruled in Elk. Again, Kim Ark was not born into the allegiance of the United States, his parents had no political attachment, and his parents were subject to treaties in the same way that Indians were.

When all was said and done, the majority in Wong Kim Ark reveals their true nonsensical position: “To hold that the Fourteenth Amendment of the constitution excludes from citizenship the children born in the United States of citizens or subjects of other countries, would be to deny citizenship to thousands of persons of English, Scotch, Irish, German, or other European parentage, who have always been considered and treated as citizens of the United States.“

That statement pretty much removes all doubt whether the Wong Kim Ark court had any idea what they were talking about.

The court in Minor vs. Happersett (1874) acknowledged that some, not all, but some authorities go as far to “include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first [born to American citizens].”

It was these kind of doubts Howard desired to settle through constitutional amendment. Sen. Howard said of the amendment: “It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States.” This was needed to prevent rebel States from refusing to recognize former slaves (now citizens) as citizens of the United States under the Fourteenth’s first section (privileges and immunities).

Furthermore, these former slaves could be said to had no political attachment to any other country – meaning they did not owe “allegiance to anybody else.” To add additional insult, the court says: “Nor can it be doubted that it is the inherent right of every independent nation to determine for itself, and according to its own constitution and laws, what classes of persons shall be entitled to its citizenship.” Yet, the court refused to recognize the fact the United States had done just that through its revised statutes and Constitution.

Gray asserts the 14th Amendment “affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens…”

Couple of factual problems with this assertion. One, resident aliens were required to take an oath of allegiance to some State and declare intent to become citizens with all other aliens deemed transient where statutes in most states prohibited citizenship to their children born within the their limits including District of Columbia. Two, courts have always held change of location never makes any change to one’s allegiance. This fact prohibits the argument an alien being within the territory magically changes an aliens pre-existing allegiance.

So Gray’s assertions here are just plain false on their face.

The most significant truth to come out of the entire Wong Kim Ark ruling comes from Chief Justice Fuller himself when he said, “the words ‘subject to the jurisdiction thereof,’ in the amendment, were used as synonymous with the words ‘and not subject to any foreign power.’” He was absolutely correct.

Only reason the language of the Fourteenth differs from the civil rights bill of 1866, which used the language “and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed” to restrict citizenship, is because Sen. Howard feared a State could begin taxing Indians, thereby making them eligible for citizenship. Because Indians, and other classes of foreigners whom Congress and the States desired to withhold citizenship from, owed allegiance to a foreign power (Indian tribes were considered independent nations), the Fourteenth would become just as restrictive against Indians by demanding full jurisdiction on part of the United States as with any other class of foreigners.

It is worth mentioning that it was the U.S. government who argued Wong Kim Ark was not born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Obviously, the Federal Government had no difficulty in understanding the words of its own revised statutes or constitutional amendment.

For the majority to have been correct with their conclusion they would have to demonstrate how it was possible the States and Federal Government retained England’s “natural allegiance” doctrine. This “natural allegiance” was something most everyone despised and hated. Fuller argued this “rule making locality of birth the criterion of citizenship because creating a permanent tie of personal allegiance to the King, no more survived the American Revolution than the same rule survived the French Revolution.“[/u]

There is also a disturbing ethical aspect of Wong Kim Ark in terms of the majorities’ apparent willingness to place themselves unethically above both facts and the supreme law of the land. The United States by treaty with China was prevented from admitting Chinese subjects to citizenship. This treaty was ratified by the same senators who had adopted both Section 1992 of the US Revised Statutes and the Fourteenth Amendment.

Furthermore, the court was also prohibited under 22 Stat. §14 to admit subjects of China to U.S. citizenship, “that hereafter no state court or court of the United States shall admit Chinese to citizenship, and all laws in conflict with this act are hereby repealed.“

The Fuller court was no stranger to criticism or controversy when it came to interpreting law or the Constitution. For example, in the cases of Brooks vs. Codman, and Foote v. Women’s Board of Missions the question was who should get the money appropriated as indemnity for spoliations of William Gray’s (Justice Gray’s grandfather) ships? Codman was the administrator of William Gray’s estate and under a 1891 law payments could only go to “creditors, legatees, assignees or strangers to the blood.”

What did the court do? They did just as they had done in Wong Kim Ark; they simply said forget what the law says because we think payments should go to the “next of kin,” i.e., Justice Horace Gray.

Conclusion

The ruling in Wong Kim Ark is of little relevance to the question surrounding the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” since that was not the question before the court as it was in Elk. Whatever one wants to make of the Wong Kim Ark ruling it will have little bearing over questions of whether aliens who have no political attachment to the country can be born born subject to its jurisdiction.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
Okay.

In the future there's a massive invasion of the United States.  Millions of enemy troops, both men and women, quietly penetrate North America. Cities and towns are infiltrated and covertly populated. Sabotage and asymmetric attacks begin and persist for decades as Americans struggle to route out the double agents and covert invaders.

You mean to tell me the constitution grants American citizenship to children born of those clandestine foreign nationals?

The answer is no. They have no allegiance to the United States, in fact the clandestine enemy saboteurs and terrorists and their newly minted "American citizens" are secretly hostile to America.

That's where the phrase, "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" distinguishes the loyalty of the aliens in addition to the fact they happen to have been born on American soil.

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277
It applies across the board.

Persons other than those covered under the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations and 22 U.S. Code § 254a are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

If that weren't the case, the man who murdered Kathryn Steinle could not be charged with a crime.

You cannot have it both ways.

No it doesn't apply across the board.

I even posted 515.101 which says that section 515 doesn't even apply to the rest of Chapter V (which is about Foreign Assets, much less to the 14th Amendment) to keep you from making just that argument... and you did it anyway...

You just never stop misrepresenting the facts and the law... do you...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,783
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Okay.

In the future there's a massive invasion of the United States.  Millions of enemy troops, both men and women, quietly penetrate North America. Cities and towns are infiltrated and covertly populated. Sabotage and asymmetric attacks begin and persist for decades as Americans struggle to route out the double agents and covert invaders.

You mean to tell me the constitution grants American citizenship to children born of those clandestine foreign nationals?

The answer is no. They have no allegiance to the United States, in fact the clandestine enemy saboteurs and terrorists and their newly minted "American citizens" are secretly hostile to America.

That's where the phrase, "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" distinguishes the loyalty of the aliens in addition to the fact they happen to have been born on American soil.

EXACTLY right! 

If that is NOT the case why is this language in the very first paragraph of the Naturalization Oath:

Quote
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;...
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Clearly you can mock him, because your credentials are much more impressive, right?

 :hands:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Okay.

In the future there's a massive invasion of the United States.  Millions of enemy troops, both men and women, quietly penetrate North America. Cities and towns are infiltrated and covertly populated. Sabotage and asymmetric attacks begin and persist for decades as Americans struggle to route out the double agents and covert invaders.

You mean to tell me the constitution grants American citizenship to children born of those clandestine foreign nationals?

The answer is no. They have no allegiance to the United States, in fact the clandestine enemy saboteurs and terrorists and their newly minted "American citizens" are secretly hostile to America.

That's where the phrase, "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" distinguishes the loyalty of the aliens in addition to the fact they happen to have been born on American soil.

I get that the popular meme is to call this incursion on our borders an invasion, but it isn't one, at least the type you describe, but as the laws are written, those children of foreign citizens born on U.S. soil get U.S. citizenship. This is not some sort of "what if" scenario, this is reality... they do.

That's the intent and the impact of the Amendment as ratified, the meaning as interpreted by the SCOTUS and the way that the law is being discharged now and the way it's been discharged for quite some time. After the SCOTUS left the building having delivered their findings on Wong Kim, Wong Kim was a U.S. citizen.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
:hands:

Let me ask you something.

As a teacher, did you (or do you) encourage your students to learn by reading the opinions of others and accepting that as fact, or by forming an opinion on their own, based on their own research and findings?

Second question.

Here's a statement from Skeptical Science:

Scientists need to back up their opinions with research and data that survive the peer-review process.  A Skeptical Science peer-reviewed survey of all (over 12,000) peer-reviewed abstracts on the subject 'global climate change' and 'global warming' published between 1991 and 2011 (Cook et al. 2013) found that over 97% of the papers taking a position on the subject agreed with the consensus position that humans are causing global warming.  In a second phase of the project, the scientist authors were emailed and rated over 2,000 of their own papers.  Once again, over 97% of the papers taking a position on the cause of global warming agreed that humans are causing it.

Is man-made global warming a reality then?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,783
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
I get that the popular meme is to call this incursion on our borders an invasion, but it isn't one, at least the type you describe, but as the laws are written, those children of foreign citizens born on U.S. soil get U.S. citizenship. This is not some sort of "what if" scenario, this is reality... they do.

That's the intent and the impact of the Amendment as ratified, the meaning as interpreted by the SCOTUS and the way that the law is being discharged now and the way it's been discharged for quite some time. After the SCOTUS left the building having delivered their findings on Wong Kim, Wong Kim was a U.S. citizen.

So, according to you, the child of any wetback mama that can wade across the river and drop her offspring in the U.S. is a citizen on the spot but those coming here LEGALLY must swear
Quote
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
before THEY are granted citizenship!   I think you are, quite frankly nuts!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 02:37:33 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GourmetDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,277
I think you are, quite frankly nuts!

He's just here to keep the pot stirred...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
I think it was yesterday that someone interviewing Trump got offended when Trump used the term "anchor baby." And he tried to shame Trump into choosing some other politically correct phraseology. Without missing a beat, Trump's rejoinder?  Those are the words I'm using.

He doesn't backdown from media bullies. And he's winning with that strategy.

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Let me ask you something.

As a teacher, did you (or do you) encourage your students to learn by reading the opinions of others and accepting that as fact, or by forming an opinion on their own, based on their own research and findings?

Second question.

Here's a statement from Skeptical Science:

Scientists need to back up their opinions with research and data that survive the peer-review process.  A Skeptical Science peer-reviewed survey of all (over 12,000) peer-reviewed abstracts on the subject 'global climate change' and 'global warming' published between 1991 and 2011 (Cook et al. 2013) found that over 97% of the papers taking a position on the subject agreed with the consensus position that humans are causing global warming.  In a second phase of the project, the scientist authors were emailed and rated over 2,000 of their own papers.  Once again, over 97% of the papers taking a position on the cause of global warming agreed that humans are causing it.

Is man-made global warming a reality then?

You couldn't even let that little applause emoticon go without a hostile retort, could you?

You're here to fight.  I'm not.

When it comes to legal opinions, I'll take Levin's credentials over yours. 

Cut and paste legal opinions are no more valid than cut and paste philosophical/ethical opinions.



btw, one of the reasons I don't like Trump is that I can't stand arrogance......     his.  Or yours.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
You couldn't even let that little applause emoticon go without a hostile retort, could you?

You're here to fight.  I'm not.

When it comes to legal opinions, I'll take Levin's credentials over yours. 

Cut and paste legal opinions are no more valid than cut and paste philosophical/ethical opinions.



btw, one of the reasons I don't like Trump is that I can't stand arrogance......     his.  Or yours.

I'm not posting based on my legal credentials, I'm posting based on what I've read on the history of the Amendment, on the Congressional records of the debates over the Amendment, and on the opinions of those with legal credentials of equal or greater merit than Levin's.

Eugene Volokh - https://law.ucla.edu/faculty/faculty-profiles/eugene-volokh/

Ilya Somim - http://mason.gmu.edu/~isomin/

James C. Ho - https://www.fed-soc.org/experts/detail/james-c-ho

And others.

Like or not, Levin who once WAS a legal scholar, is now an entertainer, whose livelihood is dependent on his radio audience and his book sales.

He's not going to sell air time and books by going against the stream of his audience's opinions.

He's wrong on this.

As a matter of policy and law I would rather that birthright citizenship wasn't the law, but the fact is that it is. To say that it isn't in light of the preponderance of evidence is just plain dumb.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
You couldn't even let that little applause emoticon go without a hostile retort, could you?

You're here to fight.  I'm not.

When it comes to legal opinions, I'll take Levin's credentials over yours. 

Cut and paste legal opinions are no more valid than cut and paste philosophical/ethical opinions.



btw, one of the reasons I don't like Trump is that I can't stand arrogance......     his.  Or yours.

BTW, you didn't answer my question on Global warming.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
BTW, you didn't answer my question on Global warming.

That's because it was completely irrelevant and ludicrous.

We're not all as stupid as you think we are, Luis.....
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
That's because it was completely irrelevant and ludicrous.

We're not all as stupid as you think we are, Luis.....

You call em out on my difference of opinion with Levin about the XIV Amendment because he is an expert and I'm just some guy, but when I use the exact same tactic on you on reference to Man-made global warming, you won't answer.

So, does Man-made global warming exist or not?

Ninety-seven percent of experts say that it does.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
I offer the same counterpoint as in our other discussion:

Three observations.

First, it's a YouTube video posted by someone named "Duke," without attribution. We have no way of knowing the agenda of the videographer, or the question that was asked that prompted Cruz's response.

Second, this was taped during an election campaign. And we all know that politicians (and Cruz is a politician, even if he is on our side) will say anything in order to get elected. And, let's acknowledge that senatorial office is just about the cushiest job in America.

Third, even Ted Cruz can be wrong.

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
You call em out on my difference of opinion with Levin about the XIV Amendment because he is an expert and I'm just some guy, but when I use the exact same tactic on you on reference to Man-made global warming, you won't answer.

So, does Man-made global warming exist or not?

Ninety-seven percent of experts say that it does.

I won't answer because I won't play your games of provocation, Luis.

Your question was non-germane to the topic, and you know it.

And I still think Levin knows more than you do..... 
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
I offer the same counterpoint as in our other discussion:

Three observations.

First, it's a YouTube video posted by someone named "Duke," without attribution. We have no way of knowing the agenda of the videographer, or the question that was asked that prompted Cruz's response.

Second, this was taped during an election campaign. And we all know that politicians (and Cruz is a politician, even if he is on our side) will say anything in order to get elected. And, let's acknowledge that senatorial office is just about the cushiest job in America.

Third, even Ted Cruz can be wrong.

You just descended into the realm of the absurd.

Cruz lied, the question that's clearly heard is not the question asked.

Here's another liar.

The Houston Chronicle:

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/election/national/article/Trump-immigration-plan-riles-on-the-border-6451792.php?t=0ca326eaa7438d9cbb&cmpid=twitter-premium

Quote
While "anchor babies" born to undocumented mothers are a familiar concern in conservative circles, Trump's solution would place him to the right of GOP rival Ted Cruz, one of the U.S. Senate's most outspoken critics of President Barack Obama's immigration policies.

As a Texas U.S. Senate candidate in 2011, Cruz stressed that birthright citizenship, however problematic, is enshrined in the Constitution. "I think it's a mistake for conservatives to be focusing on trying to fight what the Constitution says on birthright citizenship," he said. "I think we are far better off focusing on securing the border. Because birthright citizenship wouldn't be an issue if we didn't have people coming in illegally."

"None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see." - Matthew Henry
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
I won't answer because I won't play your games of provocation, Luis.

Your question was non-germane to the topic, and you know it.

And I still think Levin knows more than you do.....

No, it's completely germane to the idea that I am not sufficiently learned to question an expert like Levin.

I posted the opinion of experts in the area of man-made global warming. Ninety-seven percent of them agree that man-made global warming exists.

Is man-made global warming a reality?

Obviously, those who elevate the opinion of experts to the degree that Levin's opinion was elevated in here, and demean the opinions of non-experts to the degree of worthless must then agree that man-made global warming because there are no global warming experts posting in this forum.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
No, it's completely germane to the idea that I am not sufficiently learned to question an expert like Levin.

I posted the opinion of experts in the area of man-made global warming. Ninety-seven percent of them agree that man-made global warming exists.

Is man-made global warming a reality?

Obviously, those who elevate the opinion of experts to the degree that Levin's opinion was elevated in here, and demean the opinions of non-experts to the degree of worthless must then agree that man-made global warming because there are no global warming experts posting in this forum.

Ah.......... so your response to my post applauding the obvious superiority of Levin's expertise to yours was actually directed at those who 'elevated' Levin, and not at me......

Good to know.

The global warming parallel is still completely invalid, however, since the two situations are not even remotely the same and any connection that makes you think they are is unique to you.

It doesn't lead to the conclusion you are trying to make it lead to, since the global warming hoax is based on lies, a political agenda designed to destroy capitalism and elevate Marxism, and the pseudo-scientists promoting it are doing so to get funds for their 'research.'

Not the same as Levin, his Constitutional expertise and his love of country.

Not the same at all.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 07:47:47 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Ah.......... so your response to my post applauding the obvious superiority of Levin's expertise to yours was actually directed at those who 'elevated' Levin, and not at me......

Good to know.

The global warming parallel is still completely invalid, however, since the two situations are not even remotely the same and any connection that makes you think they are is unique to you.

It doesn't lead to the conclusion you are trying to make it lead to, since the global warming hoax is based on lies, a political agenda designed to destroy capitalism and elevate Marxism, and the pseudo-scientists promoting it are doing so to get funds for their 'research.'

Not the same as Levin, his Constitutional expertise and his love of country.

Not the same at all.

Those scientists who believe that man-made global warming exists are at least every bit the experts on their field (if not more) as Levin is on his.

Who are you to dismiss their opinions on lies?

You're just some retired music teacher.

Get that?

That's exactly what aligncare did to me.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx