Author Topic: Trump’s Critics Are Wrong about the Fourteenth Amendment and Birthright Citizenship  (Read 6180 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Considering that if an illegal commits a crime and is caught, they are arrested... that fits the bill for "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".

If there are not under our jurisdiction, then they cannot be arrested.  Diplomats, for instance, fit in this category.

Stop making sense.

People not subject to the jurisdiction are neither accountable or ruled by the laws and statutes of the United States, so in effect, everyone in the United States is "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States so long as they are on our soil, with the exception of foreign diplomats and consular employees.

Quote
In January 1997, Gueorgui Makharadze, a high-ranking Republic of Georgia diplomat, caused a five-car pileup on Dupont Circle near Embassy Row that killed a 16-year-old Maryland girl. Makharadze's claim of diplomatic immunity created a national outrage in the United States, particularly given Makharadze's previous record of driving offenses: in April 1996, Makharadze had been charged with speeding in Virginia, and four months later, he was detained by District of Columbia police on suspicion of drunk driving. In both prior cases, charges were dismissed based on his immunity.
   

And...

Quote
In 2001, a Russian diplomat, Andrei Knyazev, hit and killed a woman while driving drunk in Ottawa. Knyazev refused to take a breathalyzer at the scene of the crash, citing diplomatic immunity. Russia refused Canadian requests to waive his immunity, and Knyazev was expelled from Canada.

If illegal aliens can be arrested, processed and deported, they are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
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Offline aligncare

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Godzilla wrote above (breathing fire):
[[ I cannot support anyone that would strip my grandfather, my mother, and myself of citizenship.  Nor can I support anyone that would push this tripe. ]]

Question for ya:

What other country in the entire world provides foreigners with "birthright citizenship"?

I'll be a-waitin' your reply...!

I believe there are two other countries besides the United States ... Canada and Kenya.

Offline aligncare

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If "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" meant what some are misstating it meant, then they would be right. But, when the Constitution was written and signed on September 17, 1787 it was understood to mean "owing allegiance to" according to the author of the Fourteenth amendment, Congressman John A. Bingham of Ohio.

The framers never intended that children of illegal aliens have citizenship by accident of birth on American soil. The parents would have to be "subject to the jurisdiction thereof," ie, owe allegiance to the newly formed country.

Offline EdinVA

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Not being an expert on this....

Given that at the time the constitution was written, the states were the top dog, not the feds so to me the  "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" phrase would indicate if the state declared the new born a legal resident/citizen, then the feds would follow suit.

Wasn't the original intent to make sure that the native Americans and freed slaves were given status?

Offline olde north church

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Not being an expert on this....

Given that at the time the constitution was written, the states were the top dog, not the feds so to me the  "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" phrase would indicate if the state declared the new born a legal resident/citizen, then the feds would follow suit.

Wasn't the original intent to make sure that the native Americans and freed slaves were given status?

Freed slaves, yes.  American Indians, I'm not so sure.  There were still large areas under Indian control after the Civil War.  Little Big Horn was what, 1876?  The last I could find was the "Battle of Leech Lake" in 1898.
American Indians weren't considered citizens until 1924.
BTW ... under the 14th Amendment only confers citizenship to children of those who are PERMANENT residents AND doing business.  It's not just someone who crosses the border, drops the brat and dashes back.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Not being an expert on this....

Given that at the time the constitution was written, the states were the top dog, not the feds so to me the  "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" phrase would indicate if the state declared the new born a legal resident/citizen, then the feds would follow suit.

Wasn't the original intent to make sure that the native Americans and freed slaves were given status?

At the end of the Revolutionary War, England ceded all her territories East of the Mississippi to the United States. These were lands that belonged to the United States but weren't States, and even after Vermont, Kentucky, Tennessee and Ohio were formed as States in the Union there remained land that was part of the new country and needed to be governed by the United States (the Federal government). There was also an understanding by the Founders that the nation would expand so there would be more land to govern.

At the time that the XIV Amendment was ratified there were still huge tracks of land that weren't States but remained part of the nation by virtue of the fact that the United States owned that land, so the question of citizenship had to be dealt with for those people who weren't born in an actual State

So then people could be either born in the United States and be citizens, or in territory that wasn't a State and be a citizen by virtue of that territory being under the jurisdiction of the united States with "jurisdiction" being defined as the geographical area over which the legal and judicial authority of the United States extends itself to. 

So it was more than just about Indians and slaves, it was about people other than Indians and slaves being born in lands that weren't a State but were under the legal authority of the United States.

Now, if we make the argument that the children of illegal aliens born in United States are not citizens, that can only mean that these children (and by extent their parents) are not under the jurisdiction of the United States even while they are physically in that geographical area that is governed by our laws. So if they're not under the jurisdiction of our laws, they can't be judged by our laws.

But we arrest illegal aliens all the time for breaking our laws, including our immigration laws and we sentence them to jail for crimes or deportation, so they are obviously under the jurisdiction of the United States.

XIV Amendment to the Constitution, Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

So the children of illegal aliens are "born... in the United States" and obviously "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States and as such, they are citizens.

Changing that won't be easy, if possible at all.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 12:59:10 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Freed slaves, yes.  American Indians, I'm not so sure.  There were still large areas under Indian control after the Civil War.  Little Big Horn was what, 1876?  The last I could find was the "Battle of Leech Lake" in 1898.
American Indians weren't considered citizens until 1924.
BTW ... under the 14th Amendment only confers citizenship to children of those who are PERMANENT residents AND doing business. It's not just someone who crosses the border, drops the brat and dashes back.

Here's the text of the Amendment. Show me where it says that:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.[1]
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Offline olde north church

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Here's the text of the Amendment. Show me where it says that:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.[1]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/169/649

United States v. Wong Kim Ark
169 U.S. 649

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (No. 18)

Argued: March 5, 8, 1897

Decided: March 28, 1898

___

Syllabus
Opinion, Gray
Dissent, Fuller
Syllabus

A child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution,
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 01:08:41 pm by olde north church »
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/169/649

United States v. Wong Kim Ark
169 U.S. 649

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (No. 18)

Argued: March 5, 8, 1897

Decided: March 28, 1898

___

Syllabus
Opinion, Gray
Dissent, Fuller
Syllabus

A child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution,

Exactly.

That however cements in place the idea that children of illegal aliens are born citizens, not the other way around, since the overwhelming number of people who enter the country illegally don't just "drops the brat and dashes back". We have a problem because they drop the brats and stay.
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Offline Bigun

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Was U.S. vs. Wong Kim Ark Wrongly Decided?

by P.A. MADISON on December 10th, 2006

In reading the majorities opinion in Wong Kim Ark, one cannot help but wonder why so much emphasis is being placed on such obscure and irrelevant historical overviews as colonial and foreign law. With two previous court decisions, a United States Attorney General Opinion over the meaning of the Fourteenth’s citizenship clause, and law previously made over alien citizenship via birth, leaves one to wonder what is going on here?

Deeper into the decision, Justice Horace Gray (writing for the majority) reveals exactly what the majority is up to: They are attempting to avoid discussion over the construction of the clause by the two Senators whom are most responsible for its language found under the Fourteenth Amendment, Jacob M. Howard and Lyman Trumbull. They are also attempting to keep their prior adjudication to what “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” means in Elk v. Wilkins out of the discussion or else Wong Kim Ark can’t be said to be a citizen of the United States.

It is clear the Wong Kim Ark majority recognized the only viable approach to the conclusion they sought was to somehow distant themselves from the recorded history left behind by the citizenship clause framers. Justice Gray made no attempt to hide this fact when he wrote: “Doubtless, the intention of the congress which framed, and of the states which adopted, this amendment of the constitution, must be sought in the words of the amendment, and the debates in congress are not admissible as evidence to control the meaning of those words.”

Whatever credibility the court may had at the beginning was soon lost when Gray wrote:

Quote
The words “in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” in the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution must be presumed to have been understood and intended by the Congress which proposed the Amendment … as the equivalent of the words “within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States…”

Here the court is assuming what Congress may have intended while also arguing the written debates that could easily disclose this intent is inadmissible as evidence. This has to be one of the most incompetent and feeble rulings ever handed down by the Supreme Court. Justice John Paul Stevens would take issue with this inept attempt by the majority to rewrite the Constitution: “A refusal to consider reliable evidence of original intent in the Constitution is no more excusable than a judge’s refusal to consider legislative intent.”

Reviewing the intended purpose behind the words of the clause by both Sen. Howard and Sen. Trumbull, who were responsible for the drafting of the citizenship clause, clearly revealed the intended effect of the clause; leavening little doubt to why justice Gray desired to avoid the legislative history of this language. Howard presents a major hurdle for the majority when he specifically declared the clause to be “virtue of natural law and national law,” never once making any reference to England’s common law doctrine. Perhaps this is why Gray wasted much of his commentary along common law themes.

An Act of April 9, 1866 established for the first time a national law that read, “all persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” Rep. John A. Bingham, chief architect of the 14th Amendments first section, said this national law (Section 1992 of the US Revised Statutes) was “simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” If this law was simply to reaffirm the common law doctrine then the condition of the parents would be totally irrelevant.

Sen. Trumbull, who was the author of this national law, said it was his intention “to make citizens of everybody born in the United States who owe allegiance to the United States.” Additionally, he added if a “negro or white man belonged to a foreign Government he would not be a citizen.”

However, Gray insists Trumbull really meant to grant citizenship to everyone born due only to the fact they were born on American soil. Moreover, if everyone owed allegiance by simply being on American soil, then what was the purpose of having aliens renounce their allegiance to other countries and pledge their allegiance to this one for purposes of becoming naturalized? Perhaps the true answer is because locality itself was never enough to confer complete allegiance.

Speaking of the Fourteenth Amendment, Sen. Trumbull goes on to declare: “The provision is, that ‘all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.’ That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.“

Sen. Howard follows up by stating, “the word jurisdiction, as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, coextensive in all respects with the constitutional power of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now.”

The Supreme Court had earlier discussed the meaning of the 14th amendment’s citizenship clause in the Slaughterhouse cases and noted, “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.”

Even the dissenting minority affirmed that the result of the citizenship clause was designed to ensure that all persons born within the United States were both citizens of the United States and the state in which they resided, provided they were not at the time subjects of any foreign power. The United States Attorney General (who was a Republican Senator involved in the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866) in 1873 ruled the word “jurisdiction” under the Fourteenth Amendment to mean:

Quote
The word “jurisdiction” must be understood to mean absolute and complete jurisdiction, such as the United States had over its citizens before the adoption of this amendment… Aliens, among whom are persons born here and naturalized abroad, dwelling or being in this country, are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States only to a limited extent. Political and military rights and duties do not pertain to them. (14 Op. Atty-Gen. 300.)

In Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94, the court was specifically asked to address “subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” and held it meant:

Quote
The persons declared to be citizens are “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” The evident meaning of these last words is not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction and owing them (U.S.) direct and immediate allegiance. And the words relate to the time of birth in the one case, as they do to the time of naturalization in the other. Persons not thus subject to the jurisdiction of the United States at the time of birth cannot become so afterwards except by being naturalized, either individually, as by proceedings under the naturalization acts, or collectively, as by the force of a treaty by which foreign territory is acquired.

Here we have the framers, the Attorney General and the Elk court all agreeing that “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” means political attachment. The question begs, what happened to the adopted meaning?

In Wong Kim Ark the court made a weak attempt to marginalize its holding in Elk on the grounds that decision “concerned only members of the Indian tribes within the United States, and had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of Caucasian, African or Mongolian descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.”

In truth the adjudicated meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” in Elk did in fact have the “tendency to deny citizenship to children” because it applied to all persons born whether Indian, Asian or any other race. The real question is which court was the question of “subject to the jurisdiction” part of the court’s holding?

The answer is, Elk. In Wong Kim Ark the definition of “subject to the jurisdiction” was not part of the holding but only passing dicta.

The definition for “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” handed down in Elk posed a real problem for Wong Kim Ark because Wong’s parents did not owe the United States direct and complete allegiance nor did they fall within the political jurisdiction. To try and sidestep the judicial meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” found in Elk, Gray attempts to obfuscate the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” using dicta:

Quote
The real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, “All persons born in the United States” by the addition “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases — children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State…

Unfortunately for Gray, he can’t unmake history nor can he hide from what he had ruled in Elk. Again, Kim Ark was not born into the allegiance of the United States, his parents had no political attachment, and his parents were subject to treaties in the same way that Indians were.

When all was said and done, the majority in Wong Kim Ark reveals their true nonsensical position: “To hold that the Fourteenth Amendment of the constitution excludes from citizenship the children born in the United States of citizens or subjects of other countries, would be to deny citizenship to thousands of persons of English, Scotch, Irish, German, or other European parentage, who have always been considered and treated as citizens of the United States.“

That statement pretty much removes all doubt whether the Wong Kim Ark court had any idea what they were talking about.

The court in Minor vs. Happersett (1874) acknowledged that some, not all, but some authorities go as far to “include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first [born to American citizens].”

It was these kind of doubts Howard desired to settle through constitutional amendment. Sen. Howard said of the amendment: “It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States.” This was needed to prevent rebel States from refusing to recognize former slaves (now citizens) as citizens of the United States under the Fourteenth’s first section (privileges and immunities).

Furthermore, these former slaves could be said to had no political attachment to any other country – meaning they did not owe “allegiance to anybody else.” To add additional insult, the court says: “Nor can it be doubted that it is the inherent right of every independent nation to determine for itself, and according to its own constitution and laws, what classes of persons shall be entitled to its citizenship.” Yet, the court refused to recognize the fact the United States had done just that through its revised statutes and Constitution.

Gray asserts the 14th Amendment “affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens…”

Couple of factual problems with this assertion. One, resident aliens were required to take an oath of allegiance to some State and declare intent to become citizens with all other aliens deemed transient where statutes in most states prohibited citizenship to their children born within the their limits including District of Columbia. Two, courts have always held change of location never makes any change to one’s allegiance. This fact prohibits the argument an alien being within the territory magically changes an aliens pre-existing allegiance.

So Gray’s assertions here are just plain false on their face.

The most significant truth to come out of the entire Wong Kim Ark ruling comes from Chief Justice Fuller himself when he said, “the words ‘subject to the jurisdiction thereof,’ in the amendment, were used as synonymous with the words ‘and not subject to any foreign power.’” He was absolutely correct.

Only reason the language of the Fourteenth differs from the civil rights bill of 1866, which used the language “and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed” to restrict citizenship, is because Sen. Howard feared a State could begin taxing Indians, thereby making them eligible for citizenship. Because Indians, and other classes of foreigners whom Congress and the States desired to withhold citizenship from, owed allegiance to a foreign power (Indian tribes were considered independent nations), the Fourteenth would become just as restrictive against Indians by demanding full jurisdiction on part of the United States as with any other class of foreigners.

It is worth mentioning that it was the U.S. government who argued Wong Kim Ark was not born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Obviously, the Federal Government had no difficulty in understanding the words of its own revised statutes or constitutional amendment.

For the majority to have been correct with their conclusion they would have to demonstrate how it was possible the States and Federal Government retained England’s “natural allegiance” doctrine. This “natural allegiance” was something most everyone despised and hated. Fuller argued this “rule making locality of birth the criterion of citizenship because creating a permanent tie of personal allegiance to the King, no more survived the American Revolution than the same rule survived the French Revolution.“[/u]

There is also a disturbing ethical aspect of Wong Kim Ark in terms of the majorities’ apparent willingness to place themselves unethically above both facts and the supreme law of the land. The United States by treaty with China was prevented from admitting Chinese subjects to citizenship. This treaty was ratified by the same senators who had adopted both Section 1992 of the US Revised Statutes and the Fourteenth Amendment.

Furthermore, the court was also prohibited under 22 Stat. §14 to admit subjects of China to U.S. citizenship, “that hereafter no state court or court of the United States shall admit Chinese to citizenship, and all laws in conflict with this act are hereby repealed.“

The Fuller court was no stranger to criticism or controversy when it came to interpreting law or the Constitution. For example, in the cases of Brooks vs. Codman, and Foote v. Women’s Board of Missions the question was who should get the money appropriated as indemnity for spoliations of William Gray’s (Justice Gray’s grandfather) ships? Codman was the administrator of William Gray’s estate and under a 1891 law payments could only go to “creditors, legatees, assignees or strangers to the blood.”

What did the court do? They did just as they had done in Wong Kim Ark; they simply said forget what the law says because we think payments should go to the “next of kin,” i.e., Justice Horace Gray.

Conclusion

The ruling in Wong Kim Ark is of little relevance to the question surrounding the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” since that was not the question before the court as it was in Elk. Whatever one wants to make of the Wong Kim Ark ruling it will have little bearing over questions of whether aliens who have no political attachment to the country can be born born subject to its jurisdiction.

http://www.federalistblog.us/2006/12/us_v_wong_kim_ark_can_never_be_considered/
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Was U.S. vs. Wong Kim Ark Wrongly Decided?

by P.A. MADISON on December 10th, 2006

In reading the majorities opinion in Wong Kim Ark, one cannot help but wonder why so much emphasis is being placed on such obscure and irrelevant historical overviews as colonial and foreign law. With two previous court decisions, a United States Attorney General Opinion over the meaning of the Fourteenth’s citizenship clause, and law previously made over alien citizenship via birth, leaves one to wonder what is going on here?

Deeper into the decision, Justice Horace Gray (writing for the majority) reveals exactly what the majority is up to: They are attempting to avoid discussion over the construction of the clause by the two Senators whom are most responsible for its language found under the Fourteenth Amendment, Jacob M. Howard and Lyman Trumbull. They are also attempting to keep their prior adjudication to what “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” means in Elk v. Wilkins out of the discussion or else Wong Kim Ark can’t be said to be a citizen of the United States.

It is clear the Wong Kim Ark majority recognized the only viable approach to the conclusion they sought was to somehow distant themselves from the recorded history left behind by the citizenship clause framers. Justice Gray made no attempt to hide this fact when he wrote: “Doubtless, the intention of the congress which framed, and of the states which adopted, this amendment of the constitution, must be sought in the words of the amendment, and the debates in congress are not admissible as evidence to control the meaning of those words.”

Whatever credibility the court may had at the beginning was soon lost when Gray wrote:

Here the court is assuming what Congress may have intended while also arguing the written debates that could easily disclose this intent is inadmissible as evidence. This has to be one of the most incompetent and feeble rulings ever handed down by the Supreme Court. Justice John Paul Stevens would take issue with this inept attempt by the majority to rewrite the Constitution: “A refusal to consider reliable evidence of original intent in the Constitution is no more excusable than a judge’s refusal to consider legislative intent.”

Reviewing the intended purpose behind the words of the clause by both Sen. Howard and Sen. Trumbull, who were responsible for the drafting of the citizenship clause, clearly revealed the intended effect of the clause; leavening little doubt to why justice Gray desired to avoid the legislative history of this language. Howard presents a major hurdle for the majority when he specifically declared the clause to be “virtue of natural law and national law,” never once making any reference to England’s common law doctrine. Perhaps this is why Gray wasted much of his commentary along common law themes.

An Act of April 9, 1866 established for the first time a national law that read, “all persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” Rep. John A. Bingham, chief architect of the 14th Amendments first section, said this national law (Section 1992 of the US Revised Statutes) was “simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” If this law was simply to reaffirm the common law doctrine then the condition of the parents would be totally irrelevant.

Sen. Trumbull, who was the author of this national law, said it was his intention “to make citizens of everybody born in the United States who owe allegiance to the United States.” Additionally, he added if a “negro or white man belonged to a foreign Government he would not be a citizen.”

However, Gray insists Trumbull really meant to grant citizenship to everyone born due only to the fact they were born on American soil. Moreover, if everyone owed allegiance by simply being on American soil, then what was the purpose of having aliens renounce their allegiance to other countries and pledge their allegiance to this one for purposes of becoming naturalized? Perhaps the true answer is because locality itself was never enough to confer complete allegiance.

Speaking of the Fourteenth Amendment, Sen. Trumbull goes on to declare: “The provision is, that ‘all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.’ That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.“

Sen. Howard follows up by stating, “the word jurisdiction, as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, coextensive in all respects with the constitutional power of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now.”

The Supreme Court had earlier discussed the meaning of the 14th amendment’s citizenship clause in the Slaughterhouse cases and noted, “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.”

Even the dissenting minority affirmed that the result of the citizenship clause was designed to ensure that all persons born within the United States were both citizens of the United States and the state in which they resided, provided they were not at the time subjects of any foreign power. The United States Attorney General (who was a Republican Senator involved in the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866) in 1873 ruled the word “jurisdiction” under the Fourteenth Amendment to mean:

In Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94, the court was specifically asked to address “subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” and held it meant:

Here we have the framers, the Attorney General and the Elk court all agreeing that “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” means political attachment. The question begs, what happened to the adopted meaning?

In Wong Kim Ark the court made a weak attempt to marginalize its holding in Elk on the grounds that decision “concerned only members of the Indian tribes within the United States, and had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of Caucasian, African or Mongolian descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.”

In truth the adjudicated meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” in Elk did in fact have the “tendency to deny citizenship to children” because it applied to all persons born whether Indian, Asian or any other race. The real question is which court was the question of “subject to the jurisdiction” part of the court’s holding?

The answer is, Elk. In Wong Kim Ark the definition of “subject to the jurisdiction” was not part of the holding but only passing dicta.

The definition for “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” handed down in Elk posed a real problem for Wong Kim Ark because Wong’s parents did not owe the United States direct and complete allegiance nor did they fall within the political jurisdiction. To try and sidestep the judicial meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” found in Elk, Gray attempts to obfuscate the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” using dicta:

Unfortunately for Gray, he can’t unmake history nor can he hide from what he had ruled in Elk. Again, Kim Ark was not born into the allegiance of the United States, his parents had no political attachment, and his parents were subject to treaties in the same way that Indians were.

When all was said and done, the majority in Wong Kim Ark reveals their true nonsensical position: “To hold that the Fourteenth Amendment of the constitution excludes from citizenship the children born in the United States of citizens or subjects of other countries, would be to deny citizenship to thousands of persons of English, Scotch, Irish, German, or other European parentage, who have always been considered and treated as citizens of the United States.“

That statement pretty much removes all doubt whether the Wong Kim Ark court had any idea what they were talking about.

The court in Minor vs. Happersett (1874) acknowledged that some, not all, but some authorities go as far to “include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first [born to American citizens].”

It was these kind of doubts Howard desired to settle through constitutional amendment. Sen. Howard said of the amendment: “It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States.” This was needed to prevent rebel States from refusing to recognize former slaves (now citizens) as citizens of the United States under the Fourteenth’s first section (privileges and immunities).

Furthermore, these former slaves could be said to had no political attachment to any other country – meaning they did not owe “allegiance to anybody else.” To add additional insult, the court says: “Nor can it be doubted that it is the inherent right of every independent nation to determine for itself, and according to its own constitution and laws, what classes of persons shall be entitled to its citizenship.” Yet, the court refused to recognize the fact the United States had done just that through its revised statutes and Constitution.

Gray asserts the 14th Amendment “affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens…”

Couple of factual problems with this assertion. One, resident aliens were required to take an oath of allegiance to some State and declare intent to become citizens with all other aliens deemed transient where statutes in most states prohibited citizenship to their children born within the their limits including District of Columbia. Two, courts have always held change of location never makes any change to one’s allegiance. This fact prohibits the argument an alien being within the territory magically changes an aliens pre-existing allegiance.

So Gray’s assertions here are just plain false on their face.

The most significant truth to come out of the entire Wong Kim Ark ruling comes from Chief Justice Fuller himself when he said, “the words ‘subject to the jurisdiction thereof,’ in the amendment, were used as synonymous with the words ‘and not subject to any foreign power.’” He was absolutely correct.

Only reason the language of the Fourteenth differs from the civil rights bill of 1866, which used the language “and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed” to restrict citizenship, is because Sen. Howard feared a State could begin taxing Indians, thereby making them eligible for citizenship. Because Indians, and other classes of foreigners whom Congress and the States desired to withhold citizenship from, owed allegiance to a foreign power (Indian tribes were considered independent nations), the Fourteenth would become just as restrictive against Indians by demanding full jurisdiction on part of the United States as with any other class of foreigners.

It is worth mentioning that it was the U.S. government who argued Wong Kim Ark was not born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Obviously, the Federal Government had no difficulty in understanding the words of its own revised statutes or constitutional amendment.

For the majority to have been correct with their conclusion they would have to demonstrate how it was possible the States and Federal Government retained England’s “natural allegiance” doctrine. This “natural allegiance” was something most everyone despised and hated. Fuller argued this “rule making locality of birth the criterion of citizenship because creating a permanent tie of personal allegiance to the King, no more survived the American Revolution than the same rule survived the French Revolution.“[/u]

There is also a disturbing ethical aspect of Wong Kim Ark in terms of the majorities’ apparent willingness to place themselves unethically above both facts and the supreme law of the land. The United States by treaty with China was prevented from admitting Chinese subjects to citizenship. This treaty was ratified by the same senators who had adopted both Section 1992 of the US Revised Statutes and the Fourteenth Amendment.

Furthermore, the court was also prohibited under 22 Stat. §14 to admit subjects of China to U.S. citizenship, “that hereafter no state court or court of the United States shall admit Chinese to citizenship, and all laws in conflict with this act are hereby repealed.“

The Fuller court was no stranger to criticism or controversy when it came to interpreting law or the Constitution. For example, in the cases of Brooks vs. Codman, and Foote v. Women’s Board of Missions the question was who should get the money appropriated as indemnity for spoliations of William Gray’s (Justice Gray’s grandfather) ships? Codman was the administrator of William Gray’s estate and under a 1891 law payments could only go to “creditors, legatees, assignees or strangers to the blood.”

What did the court do? They did just as they had done in Wong Kim Ark; they simply said forget what the law says because we think payments should go to the “next of kin,” i.e., Justice Horace Gray.

Conclusion

The ruling in Wong Kim Ark is of little relevance to the question surrounding the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” since that was not the question before the court as it was in Elk. Whatever one wants to make of the Wong Kim Ark ruling it will have little bearing over questions of whether aliens who have no political attachment to the country can be born born subject to its jurisdiction.

http://www.federalistblog.us/2006/12/us_v_wong_kim_ark_can_never_be_considered/

That plus $2 will buy you a medium coffee at Dunkin Donuts. Cream and sugar included.
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Offline Bigun

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That plus $2 will buy you a medium coffee at Dunkin Donuts. Cream and sugar included.

Whatever makes you "feel" good Luis!

So much for nine black robed and unelected human beings being fair and impartial arbiters of anything!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 02:50:09 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Whatever makes you "feel" good Luis!


Actually, it's you running on "feel".

OpEds are not laws.

Intent is not codified, only laws are codified and the meaning of the XIV Amendment's citizenship clause is settled law, and has been settled law for 117 years. The interpretation arrived at in Wong Kim is "too deeply ingrained" in both American culture and statutes to be vacated.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

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Actually, it's you running on "feel".

OpEds are not laws.

Intent is not codified, only laws are codified and the meaning of the XIV Amendment's citizenship clause is settled law, and has been settled law for 117 years. The interpretation arrived at in Wong Kim is "too deeply ingrained" in both American culture and statutes to be vacated.

The man that wrote the piece I posted has credentials that FAR outweigh yours on this matter Luis! And he is not the only legal scholar around who holds the same opinion either.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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The man that wrote the piece I posted has credentials that FAR outweigh yours on this matter Luis! And he is not the only legal scholar around who holds the same opinion either.

But he's wrong on this.

Argument to authority is a logical fallacy... experts are wrong all the time in stuff.

Want to discuss all the experts with all the credentials and all the degrees that believe in global warming?
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Offline Bigun

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But he's wrong on this.

Argument to authority is a logical fallacy... experts are wrong all the time in stuff.

Want to discuss all the experts with all the credentials and all the degrees that believe in global warming?

You mean experts like the majority members of the Gray court?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline aligncare

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The man that wrote the piece I posted has credentials that FAR outweigh yours on this matter Luis! And he is not the only legal scholar around who holds the same opinion either.

I agree with you, Bigun. It is not settled, not while a border nation is in the process of invading the United States.

Birthright citizenship is an anomaly among world nations. Nearly every country on earth places a higher premium on their citizenship than does the United States.

Offline Bigun

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I agree with you, Bigun. It is not settled, not while a border nation is in the process of invading the United States.

Birthright citizenship is an anomaly among world nations. Nearly every country on earth places a higher premium on their citizenship than does the United States.

And there is a hell of a lot more to it than one wrongly decided court case!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EdinVA

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Actually, it's you running on "feel".

OpEds are not laws.

Intent is not codified, only laws are codified and the meaning of the XIV Amendment's citizenship clause is settled law, and has been settled law for 117 years. The interpretation arrived at in Wong Kim is "too deeply ingrained" in both American culture and statutes to be vacated.

Luis, just because we have been doing something for 117 years, does that mean we have been doing it right?
If that were true, slavery would still be legal.
It is obvious to me, from the conversation, that the issue needs to be addressed soon.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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You mean experts like the majority members of the Gray court?

There are myriads of scientists whose resumes are as impressive as Levin's (in their field) who are absolutely convinced that global warming is a reality. There are also plenty of legal and Constitutional scholars who agree with Wong Kim, so quoting "experts" is a hollow and pointless game.

Having said that, anyone "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States can be arrested, charged, tried and sentenced for breaking the laws of the U.S.  Those who can't (diplomats and consular employees) can't because they're not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. 

Settled.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

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There are myriads of scientists whose resumes are as impressive as Levin's (in their field) who are absolutely convinced that global warming is a reality. There are also plenty of legal and Constitutional scholars who agree with Wong Kim, so quoting "experts" is a hollow and pointless game.

Having said that, anyone "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States can be arrested, charged, tried and sentenced for breaking the laws of the U.S.  Those who can't (diplomats and consular employees) can't because they're not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. 

Settled.

Only in your mind Luis!

The man who wrote the article at the beginning of this thread runs circles around YOUR legal reasoning!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 04:02:21 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Fishrrman

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In reference to my previous post above regarding birthright citizenship.

The United States isn't the "only" nation that offers this.
There are some others, mostly in the Western Hemisphere.

Here's an article with charts, etc.:
http://cis.org/birthright-citizenship

The key charts:


and:


I apologize for the small size.
I couldn't find higher resolution images.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Luis, just because we have been doing something for 117 years, does that mean we have been doing it right?
If that were true, slavery would still be legal.
It is obvious to me, from the conversation, that the issue needs to be addressed soon.

Liberals would make the same exact argument about the Second Amendment.

Do we want to set this new standard?

Rehnquist, in spite of his scathing dissent on Roe v Wade, later acknowledged that vacating that opinion would bring more harm than good since Roe was deeply ingrained in out culture and statutes.

Changing the Constituion or challenging long-standing laws and legal concepts is it the solution here. Enforcing existing laws and some common sense immigration reform is the solution.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 04:03:12 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

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Not Hard to Read 14th Amendment As Not Requiring Birthright Citizenship -- and Nothing Odd About Supporting Such a Reading

By Andrew C. McCarthy   — August 18, 2015

Roger, with due respect,

1. It does not seem hard at all to read the text of the Constitution as not requiring birthright citizenship unless one is construing the word “jurisdiction” to mean something plainly different from what the term meant when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted.

As the Lino Graglia law review article Rich excerpted demonstrates, the term meant being subject to jurisdiction in the sense of the complete allegiance inherent in citizenship, not in the sense of merely being subject to American laws. Regarding the latter, every person present in the United States – citizen or not, legally present or not – is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in the narrow sense of being expected to follow our laws. (Even diplomats, though they have an immunity defense against prosecution for criminal law violations, are expected to follow our laws and subject to expulsion for failing to do so.)

Yet, every person present in the United States is not presumed to have fealty to the United States, which is what “jurisdiction” means in the Fourteenth Amendment. And it is clearly not the case that every person born in the United States is automatically a citizen pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment: U.S.-born children of foreign diplomats are not; nor are the U.S.-born children of American Indians (they were granted citizenship by an act of Congress in 1924). Given that it is not true that every person born in the United States is an American citizen under the Constitution, how difficult can it be to read the Constitution to not require something it does not require?

2. I don’t know that it’s necessary to “make war” on birthright citizenship, but there is nothing odd about opposition to it. In fact, the United States is one of the few countries in the world that confers citizenship on illegal aliens based on nothing other than the happenstance of their birth within national borders. I am not suggesting that the laws of other countries shed light on the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment; just that birthright citizenship is rightly seen as bad policy in most of the world. (Somehow, I suspect that the Supreme Court’s progressives, who believe in consulting foreign law when “interpreting” the U.S. Constitution, would resist that impulse when it comes to birthright citizenship.)

There are many people who believe in robust legal immigration and are open to the notion of some qualified amnesty for some categories of illegal aliens but who nevertheless think it is a terrible idea to grant citizenship automatically to the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens – a policy that can only encourage more illegal immigration. I am not a fan of “comprehensive immigration reform”; but if reform is to be comprehensive, and we are trying to discourage illegal immigration, why would we not address every policy that incentivizes illegal immigration?

If denying birthright citizenship seems like an offensive proposition to some, it can only be because we’ve lost our sense of what citizenship should be – the concept of national allegiance inherent in it. If a couple who are nationals of Egypt enter our country and have a baby while they are here, why is it sensible to presume that child’s allegiance is to the United States rather than Egypt? If the baby of an American couple happened to be born while they were touring Egypt, would we not presume that the child’s allegiance was to the United States?

http://www.nationalreview.com/node/422714/print

But he doesn't know what he is talking about either does he Luis?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EdinVA

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Liberals would make the same exact argument about the Second Amendment.

Do we want to set this new standard?

Rehnquist, in spite of his scathing dissent on Roe v Wade, later acknowledged that vacating that opinion would bring more harm than good since Roe was deeply ingrained in out culture and statutes.

Changing the Constituion or challenging long-standing laws and legal concepts is it the solution here. Enforcing existing laws and some common sense immigration reform is the solution.

So because we are afraid of a secondary or tertiary fight we ignore the first?
So the left wins by default.
Must be a graduate of the Nixon School of Conflicts... :)