Trump vows to deport all undocumented immigrants and rescind any protections put in place by Obama

[DCPatriot]

This is as simple as I can make it:

You: They are breaking the law!  That's why it's bad.
Me: What happens if the law is changed?
You: It's still bad.
Me: Then it's not about the law, is it?

What I suspect is that for many, it's a case of morality.  Someone did something wrong and that should not be rewarded.

It's just that we need to remember that laws, in and of themselves, have no morals... and can be changed.  And if we campaign on the basis of 'law'... the Democratic response will be to just 'change the law'.

Which knocks the wind out of our sails.

A guy gets a speeding ticket for going 65 on a 55 mph expressway.  He pays the fine or loses his license.

One day they raise the speed limit on that expressway to  65 mph.

Nobody gets their money back that they paid for their tickets. 

Laws can be changed, but it doesn't mean the speeders didn't commit a crime.

[DCPatriot]

LOL!  You must REALLY be busy, to be holding your tongue, Luis.   

[Luis Gonzalez]

LOL!  You must REALLY be busy, to be holding your tongue, Luis.

I just love sci fi.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

This is as simple as I can make it:

You: They are breaking the law!  That's why it's bad.
Me: What happens if the law is changed?
You: It's still bad.
Me: Then it's not about the law, is it?

What I suspect is that for many, it's a case of morality.  Someone did something wrong and that should not be rewarded.

It's just that we need to remember that laws, in and of themselves, have no morals... and can be changed.

Here is an analogy I like to use.

The federal law regulating highway speeds was enacted in 1974 in response to oil shortages.  It stayed with us until 1995 when that authority reverted back to the states.  A man who drove 65 MPH in 1974 was breaking the law.  A man who does it today is obeying the law.  Same behavior, different consequences.

When the immigration laws were changed under Reagan 3 million criminals were no longer criminals.

Our immigration laws are broken.  They need to be changed to reflect the labor needs of our businesses.  A huge chunk of our service economy does not need college graduates...it needs burger flippers and toilet cleaners and Americans are not producing enough manual laborers, in part because we abort a million babies a year.

Trump proposes that the fix is to enforce the broken laws and deport 30 million people.  I think that would be ruinous for our economy and a black mark on the American soul.   

I meant to say hello earlier Godzilla...I've been enjoying your posts.  Welcome.

[alicewonders]

This is as simple as I can make it:

You: They are breaking the law!  That's why it's bad.
Me: What happens if the law is changed?
You: It's still bad.
Me: Then it's not about the law, is it?

What I suspect is that for many, it's a case of morality.  Someone did something wrong and that should not be rewarded.

It's just that we need to remember that laws, in and of themselves, have no morals... and can be changed.  And if we campaign on the basis of 'law'... the Democratic response will be to just 'change the law'.

Which knocks the wind out of our sails.

You're going to simplify it for me, because I'm stupid or something?  LOL!

If it was against the law when you did it - you broke the law.  If they changed the law tomorrow - you still broke the law when you did it. 

Your argument is, "the Democrats are going to change the law (I say the spineless Republicans will bust their ass to change it first) to cater to the Hispanics to get their votes - so Republicans must do it first in order to look like the "good guys" here.  Am I reading you correctly?

Your argument that changing the law makes illegals lawbreakers no more - well, I'm sorry - let me see if I can simplify it for YOU - is a stupid argument that doesn't hold water.  You're trying to change the parameters of the issue we were discussing - in other words - you're cheating.  Just like amnesty is.

[Luis Gonzalez]

You're going to simplify it for me, because I'm stupid or something?  LOL!

If it was against the law when you did it - you broke the law.  If they changed the law tomorrow - you still broke the law when you did it. 

Your argument is, "the Democrats are going to change the law (I say the spineless Republicans will bust their ass to change it first) to cater to the Hispanics to get their votes - so Republicans must do it first in order to look like the "good guys" here.  Am I reading you correctly?

Your argument that changing the law makes illegals lawbreakers no more - well, I'm sorry - let me see if I can simplify it for YOU - is a stupid argument that doesn't hold water.  You're trying to change the parameters of the issue we were discussing - in other words - you're cheating.  Just like amnesty is.

Amnesty is an official pardon for people who've broken the law.

It happens all the time. I've had tons of speeding tickets dismissed.

Ford pardoned Nixon.

Jimmy carter pardoned Peter Yarrow... he molested a 14 year-old fan.

Reagan pardoned Steinbrenner and about 7 million illegal immigrants.

Bill Clinton pardoned Patty Hearst.

Article II, Section 2 of the United States Constitution: "The President... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

What's to stop Obama from pardoning every illegal immigrant in the country before he leaves office?

[Luis Gonzalez]

 

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Game Changer - Actor Alec Baldwin just announced he's running for the GOP nomination and he's going to execute illegals on the spot...personally. 

This could split the brietbart.com/stormfront vote

[EC]

What's to stop Obama from pardoning every illegal immigrant in the country before he leaves office?

Pardons are given by name.

He'd have to name every single one of them.

[alicewonders]

Amnesty is an official pardon for people who've broken the law.

It happens all the time. I've had tons of speeding tickets dismissed.

Ford pardoned Nixon.

Jimmy carter pardoned Peter Yarrow... he molested a 14 year-old fan.

Reagan pardoned Steinbrenner and about 7 million illegal immigrants.

Bill Clinton pardoned Patty Hearst.

Article II, Section 2 of the United States Constitution: "The President... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

Now, if we can get Congress to impeach 11+ million illegal immigrants, Trump can deport them.

That's real funny Luis!  You just keep spouting the amnesty "solution".  Except that it's not a solution.  I know you all think it's going to clench GOP victory for you in 2016 - but that's not what is going to do it.  People that came here legally, and that includes very many Hispanics aren't going to vote because of that - only the illegals will.  And guess what?  Even if the GOP does change the law - they will still lose those people's votes.

The Republican brand is never going to attract those people - nor is it going to make very much of a gain when it comes to millenials either.  The Republicans are acting like the creep that takes one girl to the dance and then ignores her to try to catch the eye of the other girl that doesn't want to have anything to do with him.  He ends up leaving the dance with BOTH girls hating him.

In the end, it's just more politicians playing dirty tricks and selling their country down the river for their own enrichment.  Ordinary working people that play by the rules are getting royally sick and tired of it.  Ignore them at your own peril.

[Luis Gonzalez]

That's real funny Luis!  You just keep spouting the amnesty "solution".  Except that it's not a solution.  I know you all think it's going to clench GOP victory for you in 2016 - but that's not what is going to do it.  People that came here legally, and that includes very many Hispanics aren't going to vote because of that - only the illegals will.  And guess what?  Even if the GOP does change the law - they will still lose those people's votes.

The Republican brand is never going to attract those people - nor is it going to make very much of a gain when it comes to millenials either.  The Republicans are acting like the creep that takes one girl to the dance and then ignores her to try to catch the eye of the other girl that doesn't want to have anything to do with him.  He ends up leaving the dance with BOTH girls hating him.

In the end, it's just more politicians playing dirty tricks and selling their country down the river for their own enrichment.  Ordinary working people that play by the rules are getting royally sick and tired of it.  Ignore them at your own peril.

I'm not spouting a thing.

I posted facts and quoted the U.S. Constitution.

"Spouting" would be a vow to deport all undocumented immigrants without exactly explaining how.

[alicewonders]

I'm not spouting a thing.

I posted facts and quoted the U.S. Constitution.

"Spouting" would be a vow to deport all undocumented immigrants without exactly explaining how.

Dictionary

spout
      verb \ˈspau̇t\

: to shoot out (a liquid) with force
: to flow out with force
: to say or talk about (something) in a way that is boring or annoying

Now, I'm not saying you were being boring or annoying (I like you Luis and I admire your passion for things you believe in)....but -

you were spouting!

[Luis Gonzalez]

Dictionary

spout
      verb \ˈspau̇t\

: to shoot out (a liquid) with force
: to flow out with force
: to say or talk about (something) in a way that is boring or annoying

Now, I'm not saying you were being boring or annoying (I like you Luis and I admire your passion for things you believe in)....but -

you were spouting!

I spouted nothing.

"Amnesty" is a pardon, and the U.S. Constitution gives the POTUS the (nearly unlimited) power to "grant pardons and reprieves" without consulting with Congress or anyone else.

That's a fact, just as it is a fact that "amnesty" happens all the time. I listed some of the most notorious ones.

No laws have to change.

The POTUS can just pardon all illegal immigrants in the nation.

Now, you all carry on.

[alicewonders]

I spouted nothing.

"Amnesty" is a pardon, and the U.S. Constitution gives the POTUS the (nearly unlimited) power to "grant pardons and reprieves" without consulting with Congress or anyone else.

That's a fact, just as it is a fact that "amnesty" happens all the time. I listed some of the most notorious ones.

No laws have to change.

The POTUS can just pardon all illegal immigrants in the nation.

Now, you all carry on.

I have no doubt that is exactly what is going to happen.  Our governments are drunk with power.  It is a recipe for disaster. 

[Formerly Once-Ler]

I have no doubt that is exactly what is going to happen.  Our governments are drunk with power.  It is a recipe for disaster.

Actually our government is extremely weak when it comes to enacting unpopular sweeping long term legislation.  It's because the Constitution limits the power of government and requires our public servants face election by the people every 2, 4, or 6 years. 

If Obama pardons all the illegals it will be because he knows he can get away with it, but Obama wouldn't want to lose the issue when it is such an effective weapon to bludgeon the GOP as racist with.

Of course I've thought immigration was a loser issue for the GOP since 2006 when the GOP controlled the House and Senate, we passed bills in both, and President Bush promised to sign a bill but nothing happened.
I also believe the words "amnesty" and "deportation" have a different connotation this time around.

I believe Trump has hit his zenith.  He already had the most "conservative" position on immigration.  He is now, and forever more, a border hawk first.  This unenviable position has formerly been held by Tom Tancredo, Alan Keyes, Pat Buchanana, and Chris Simcox.  Trump will become tainted by the unsavory characters that border hawks attract...like breitbart.com.  GOP candidates who try to tap into Trump's anti-immigration zeitgeist will go down with him.   

Up thread you gave a passionate argument why you oppose amnesty, and I don't doubt your sincerity.  I'm sure you believe a majority of voters stand by your side.

We will know in a few months if Trump burns like Icarus from dizzying heights.  If he does, I submit, his wings started melting today.

[olde north church]

...

I believe Trump has hit his zenith.  He already had the most "conservative" position on immigration.  He is now, and forever more, a border hawk first.  This unenviable position has formerly been held by Tom Tancredo, Alan Keyes, Pat Buchanana, and Chris Simcox.  Trump will become tainted by the unsavory characters that border hawks attract...like breitbart.com.  GOP candidates who try to tap into Trump's anti-immigration zeitgeist will go down with him.   

...

And I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows.  Unfortunately, believing it ain't making it so.  Trump's support will only expand as shown by the "Black Chicks" video.  It will expand as candidate's drop from the race.  It will expand as black support increases.  People like winners.  People don't care too much for grumbly old white guys with bow-ties and serious, solemn expressions.
Trump will become more popular as time goes on.

[bkepley]

And I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows.  Unfortunately, believing it ain't making it so.  Trump's support will only expand as shown by the "Black Chicks" video.  It will expand as candidate's drop from the race.  It will expand as black support increases.  People like winners.  People don't care too much for grumbly old white guys with bow-ties and serious, solemn expressions.
Trump will become more popular as time goes on.

Trump is not a winner a whiner.  Says so himself.

[olde north church]

for your reading pleasure



http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/08/16/byron-york-donald-trumps-immigration-plan-reflects-mainstream-american-viewpoints/

[Luis Gonzalez]

I have no doubt that is exactly what is going to happen.  Our governments are drunk with power.  It is a recipe for disaster.

So, Reagan was drunk with power?

[olde north church]

So, Reagan was drunk with power?

Possibly.   

[EdinVA]

I spouted nothing.

"Amnesty" is a pardon, and the U.S. Constitution gives the POTUS the (nearly unlimited) power to "grant pardons and reprieves" without consulting with Congress or anyone else.

That's a fact, just as it is a fact that "amnesty" happens all the time. I listed some of the most notorious ones.

No laws have to change.

The POTUS can just pardon all illegal immigrants in the nation.

Now, you all carry on.

The process of applying for a presidential pardon is fairly straight-forward.  There is a five-year waiting period after completion of sentence for either a federal offense or D.C. conviction.  The waiting period begins on the date of the person’s release from confinement.  Alternatively, if the conviction resulted in probation or fine but no term of imprisonment, the waiting period begins on the date of sentencing.

Once this waiting period has elapsed, the person needs to submit a petition to the Office of the Pardon Attorney at the U.S. Department of Justice.  The petition itself is only about 20 pages long.  In addition to contact and other background information, the petitioner is required to lay out the reasons for the request and provide information on the specific conviction in question, any prior or subsequent convictions, employment history, any mental health or substance abuse issues, military record, and charitable and community activities.  The petitioner is also required to present affidavits from three people attesting to the petitioner’s good character.

http://koehlerlaw.net/other-offenses/presidential-pardons/

So the prospective president has to evaluate and sign 11 million applications for pardon and this equals blanket amnesty?
I think you may want to revisit this.

[Luis Gonzalez]

So the prospective president has to evaluate and sign 11 million applications for pardon and this equals blanket amnesty?
I think you may want to revisit this.

How many years did Nixon serve?

[EdinVA]

How many years did Nixon serve?

Nixon was ONE guy, your talking about processing 11 million pardon requests.
Additionally, the way I read it, you can only be pardoned from actual charges which we have not done.
We would have to charge each illegal, then they wait 5 years, then are eligible for pardon.

[olde north church]

Nixon was ONE guy, your talking about processing 11 million pardon requests.
Additionally, the way I read it, you can only be pardoned from actual charges which we have not done.
We would have to charge each illegal, then they wait 5 years, then are eligible for pardon.

We could go like Aussies on the feral cats.

[Bigun]

Nixon was ONE guy, your talking about processing 11 million pardon requests.
Additionally, the way I read it, you can only be pardoned from actual charges which we have not done.
We would have to charge each illegal, then they wait 5 years, then are eligible for pardon.

As was said WAY up thread, the entire argument is STUPID!