Bush unveils border security plan

[Fishrrman]

Oceander wrote above:
[[ Sounds like we should simply stop fooling ourselves and issue a national identity card that can be used to uniquely identify anyone anywhere, and make it a criminal offense to not have your card on you at all times and a separate offense to refuse to provide it to law enforcement upon request. ]]

Sadly, perhaps the time has come for this.

Yes, I realize that it reeks of Nazi Germany and "your papers, please".

But I'll say this:
If carrying such a card is what it will take to get the illegal situation under control, I'm ready to wear one right on my sleeve.

If that's what it's going to take.

Say whatever you wish.

[alicewonders]

Enforce current law! Whatever it takes!

If you are asking me how I would fix the problem I would turn off the magnets! Every last one of them!  No jobs, healthcare, no nothing!

That seems to be the solution no one wants to talk about, isn't it?

[Oceander]

Enforce current law! Whatever it takes!

If you are asking me how I would fix the problem I would turn off the magnets! Every last one of them!  No jobs, healthcare, no nothing!

How?  By punishing every business that happens to e-verify someone with a stolen SSN?  Current law is clearly inadequate, and the reason for that isn't that difficult:  unless you're willing to be like North Korea or East Germany, you can't stop people from going where a better life is to be had.  If we were smart we'd have an unlimited guest worker policy, with mandatory 6-month or annual check-ins with the local ICE office, and mandatory turn-over from local law enforcement to federal ICE of any guest worker who is arrested/convicted of a violent felony, for deportation.

[Fishrrman]

Oceander wrote above:
[[ Walls are singularly ineffective and are nothing more than a white elephant's white elephant.  The ground under the wall between Egypt and Gaza is honey-combed with tunnels, some concrete-lined and big enough to drive vehicles along, making a mockery of the wall. ]]

Propaganda from the GOP-e ...!

You have no interest in getting control of the border.
I sense from your posts that you have MUCH interest in maintaining the status quo!

I was somewhere you have not been or seen in person.
I was at the Berlin Wall when it was still there.
I actually WENT THROUGH the wall, at Checkpoint Charlie, and got some time to roam around on the other side.
That wall WORKED.
Not pretty, but it accomplished the task for which it was constructed.
No, it didn't stop a few from "getting across".
But it stopped 99.99999% of them.

What worked there, can work as well here.

If we can secure places like the White House, the Pentagon, the CIA, NSA, etc. -- we can secure the border equally well. All it takes is the will to do so.

And the cost?
Building and maintaining a 30-foot-high border wall, with an inner fence, track for patrol vehicles, electronic monitoring equipment to detect tunnels, and all the manpower to operate it, will cost us far LESS -- on an order of many magnitudes -- as the cost of social services we would otherwise pay to the illegals who would stream uncross if the border is left unprotected.

So stop blowing the RyeKnow smokescreen that "it would cost too much".
Please.

[Luis Gonzalez]

libertybele grumbles above:
[[ How about just building a dang sustainable fence and enforcing our existing immigration laws for starters. ]]

The reason they won't talk about building an effective border barrier is because:

Barriers WORK.
They are passive obstacles that dont' require much maintenance once they're built.
They're just "there".

Build a solid enough wall, and it's going to stop 98% of the illegal entries.

They'll try to dig tunnels, but the technology is out there now to stop that, and we can always ask for help from the Israelis, who know how to get the job done:



But that's why you won't hear many Republicans talking about a true border barrier.
Because they're effective.
The LAST thing they want is a solid, controllable border.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVmkfj4W5-Q

[Oceander]

Oceander wrote above:
[[ Walls are singularly ineffective and are nothing more than a white elephant's white elephant.  The ground under the wall between Egypt and Gaza is honey-combed with tunnels, some concrete-lined and big enough to drive vehicles along, making a mockery of the wall. ]]

Propaganda from the GOP-e ...!

You have no interest in getting control of the border.
I sense from your posts that you have MUCH interest in maintaining the status quo!

I was somewhere you have not been or seen in person.
I was at the Berlin Wall when it was still there.
I actually WENT THROUGH the wall, at Checkpoint Charlie, and got some time to roam around on the other side.
That wall WORKED.
Not pretty, but it accomplished the task for which it was constructed.
No, it didn't stop a few from "getting across".
But it stopped 99.99999% of them.

What worked there, can work as well here.

If we can secure places like the White House, the Pentagon, the CIA, NSA, etc. -- we can secure the border equally well. All it takes is the will to do so.

And the cost?
Building and maintaining a 30-foot-high border wall, with an inner fence, track for patrol vehicles, electronic monitoring equipment to detect tunnels, and all the manpower to operate it, will cost us far LESS -- on an order of many magnitudes -- as the cost of social services we would otherwise pay to the illegals who would stream uncross if the border is left unprotected.

So stop blowing the RyeKnow smokescreen that "it would cost too much".
Please.

Will you be the first person to look another human being square in the face and then shoot her point blank because she's on the wrong side of the wall?  Or will you only shoot them in the back?

What about a 14 y.o. child, whose only "crime" is being with his parents as they tried to enter the US illegally?
Will you use hollow-point, or just plain metal jacketed?

It's very nice you were at the Berlin Wall.  It's too bad you haven't fully imbibed, or understood, what it took to try and make that thing effective.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Oceander wrote above:
[[ Walls are singularly ineffective and are nothing more than a white elephant's white elephant.  The ground under the wall between Egypt and Gaza is honey-combed with tunnels, some concrete-lined and big enough to drive vehicles along, making a mockery of the wall. ]]

Propaganda from the GOP-e ...!

You have no interest in getting control of the border.
I sense from your posts that you have MUCH interest in maintaining the status quo!

I was somewhere you have not been or seen in person.
I was at the Berlin Wall when it was still there.
I actually WENT THROUGH the wall, at Checkpoint Charlie, and got some time to roam around on the other side.
That wall WORKED.
Not pretty, but it accomplished the task for which it was constructed.
No, it didn't stop a few from "getting across".
But it stopped 99.99999% of them.

What worked there, can work as well here.

If we can secure places like the White House, the Pentagon, the CIA, NSA, etc. -- we can secure the border equally well. All it takes is the will to do so.

And the cost?
Building and maintaining a 30-foot-high border wall, with an inner fence, track for patrol vehicles, electronic monitoring equipment to detect tunnels, and all the manpower to operate it, will cost us far LESS -- on an order of many magnitudes -- as the cost of social services we would otherwise pay to the illegals who would stream uncross if the border is left unprotected.

So stop blowing the RyeKnow smokescreen that "it would cost too much".
Please.

Has it occurred to you that the Berlin Wall was built to keep people in?

In fact, most walls of the kind you admire are erected to hold people in, not keep them out, and the trick for the wall to work, is to be willing to shoot anyone who challenges the wall.

[Bigun]

That seems to be the solution no one wants to talk about, isn't it?

Yep! Seems so!

[Formerly Once-Ler]

So then we should start electronically checking everyone, correct?  Sounds like we should simply stop fooling ourselves and issue a national identity card that can be used to uniquely identify anyone anywhere, and make it a criminal offense to not have your card on you at all times and a separate offense to refuse to provide it to law enforcement upon request.

That seems like the kind of thing that should be put to a vote, because it is something I have objections to, and I hope the people would object to.  It's not that I can't see the advantage of Obama having instant access to my every movement, it is just I don't trust him with that power, and I think a national ID leads to national database that keys on that unique identifier.  That database could be linked with all the myriad branchings of the government, state governments, and businesses.

Right now there are some legal complications to networking off your SS number.  Everybody would use the national ID. 
I also can foresee scenarios where safeguards of a national ID number could be less efficient than our current state IDs.

Just my two cents.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

How?  By punishing every business that happens to e-verify someone with a stolen SSN?  Current law is clearly inadequate, and the reason for that isn't that difficult:  unless you're willing to be like North Korea or East Germany, you can't stop people from going where a better life is to be had.  If we were smart we'd have an unlimited guest worker policy, with mandatory 6-month or annual check-ins with the local ICE office, and mandatory turn-over from local law enforcement to federal ICE of any guest worker who is arrested/convicted of a violent felony, for deportation.