Author Topic: The Big Gay Marriage Lie  (Read 10521 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #125 on: July 31, 2015, 08:35:35 pm »
 

 :laugh:

I suppose we just have to get used to 'losing' right now.   Not happy about it.

I just think that you don't want to lose any.

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Ted Cruz: Obama’s 20 Unanimous Supreme Court Losses Outpace Bush and Clinton

by JOEL GEHRKE   July 1, 2014 12:31 PM

President Obama has seen 20 unanimous defeats before the Supreme Court during the five and a half years of his presidency, a pace that outstrips former presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, according to a review of his record since 2009 by Senator Ted Cruz (R., Texas). “President Obama’s unanimous Supreme Court loss rate, for the five and half years of his presidency, is nearly double that of President Bush and is 25 percent greater than President Clinton,” Cruz notes in a survey of how Obama’s lawyers performed before the high court. Bush lost 15 cases unanimously, while Clinton lost 23 — but those defeats came over an eight-year period. When Cruz released his first report on the topic in April of 2013, he pointed out that Obama had lost nine cases unanimously since January of 2012. This latest installment takes account of the four most recent unanimous rulings against Obama, and the seven handed down by the court before 2012.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/381676/ted-cruz-obamas-20-unanimous-supreme-court-losses-outpace-bush-and-clinton-joel-gehrke

You really need to stop listening to the doom and gloom brigade.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 08:36:01 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #126 on: July 31, 2015, 08:36:59 pm »
There is little doubt that during and after Reconstruction, many supporters of the Confederacy refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of the 14th Amendment due in large part to the tactics used against the Southern states to complete the ratification process.  But for many decades, the USSC has rejected that, and today whether or not some want to challenge its legality as part of the Constitution, doing so is a fool's errand, and even they know it.

Well of course the SCOTUS has rejected challenges to the 14th Amendment.  LOL!  Did you expect anything different?  People do need to understand 'the tactics' that were employed and that there was good reason and solid opposition to the 14th Amendment for the very reason that it has turned out to be such a disaster.

The fact remains that the 14th Amendment was imposed on this country by the federal government in Wash D.C. and this country has suffered ever since.

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But just think how great our society would be without the 14th.  We wouldn't have had to provide citizenship to our former slaves; the Black Codes might still be in effect along with the later Jim Crow laws; we could keep blacks in their own schools; interracial marriages could be outlawed; most laws permitting discrimination could still remain; bedroom privacy would no longer be permitted; women...and men could be denied birth controls...But at least our ante-bellum social order would still be intact.

That would be the fallacy of the false dilemma.  You assume that these things could not have been rectified by any means other than the 14th Amendment.  That is a belief, and not a fact. 

What we do know is that without the 14th Amendment, abortion and 'gay marriage' would be State issues and would not be imposed on everyone by a non-independent court.  States could even 'change their mind' if gay marriage gets out of hand (which it eventually will).  Now, there is no choice (just like abortion), which is the point of making it a SCOTUS decision.  The States and the people have no choice.  It is imposed by judicial fiat.

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But to your concern that the rights of individuals were and should be up to the whim of the states.  Rights come from God and nature and cannot be granted, only protected.  Nor do rights come from the courts or any man-made governmental entity.  They simply exist.

I like the way you refer to States powers as a 'whim'.  They are, however, anything but a 'whim'.  They are the original foundation for this republic.  The civil war was only superficially about slavery, which could have been resolved many different ways other than mass slaughter.  It was about the Federal government taking control of the States and we can see how that worked through the 14th Amendment.  That much is clear.

I do know how you like to characterize arguments in certain ways for effect, however.

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Yes, perhaps my naivety comes from an acceptance of the 14th Amendment.  But I'll accept that and continue to embrace all of the rights amendments.  They are all part of the Constitution I admire.

They would not 'all' be part of the Constitution that you so admire if they had been constitutionally-adopted.  So you like a Constitution that was turned on it's head by federal shenanigans during Reconstruction.  That's not something to be proud of...

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You continue to use abortion as a rationale for your assertion that gay marriage will lead to legalized use of victims in sexual acts.  If you wish to continue discussing abortion, by all means lets move that topic to another thread.  And you charge me with liking ridiculous conclusions...(not enough emoticons :pondering:).

You are the one who brought it up as though it was some kind of support for 'gay marriage' so if their was a ridiculous conclusion, it was certainly yours.  Then when it got turned against your position, you wanted to drop it or move it somewhere else.  Well of course you do...

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I believe we understand each other's positions.

Unfortunately, what I get from you is a consistent, deliberate effort to misrepresent both the facts and the arguments of those who oppose your positions...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #127 on: July 31, 2015, 08:41:09 pm »
I just think that you don't want to lose any.

You really need to stop listening to the doom and gloom brigade.

But, is it because Obama had thrown so much 'poop' on the wall, so-to-speak....that he compiled said record?

IOW...on how many cases did he get his desired outcome?

Secondly, he's in hyper-drive right now with 'only' a year and one-half remaining, so I'd imagine he's going to keep them busy.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #128 on: July 31, 2015, 08:54:31 pm »
Quote
Unfortunately, what I get from you is a consistent, deliberate effort to misrepresent both the facts and the arguments of those who oppose your positions...

I will leave that as the last word. Have a good day.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #129 on: July 31, 2015, 08:55:02 pm »
I will leave that as the last word. Have a good day.

Yep, you too.

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline Bigun

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #130 on: July 31, 2015, 09:07:15 pm »
There is No "Fourteenth Amendment"!

by
David Lawrence

U.S. News & World Report
September 27, 1957

 A MISTAKEN BELIEF — that there is a valid article in the Constitution known as the "Fourteenth Amendment" — is responsible for the Supreme Court decision of 1954 and the ensuing controversy over desegregation in the public schools of America. No such amendment was ever legally ratified by three fourths of the States of the Union as required by the Constitution itself. The so-called "Fourteenth Amendment" was dubiously proclaimed by the Secretary of State on July 20, 1868. The President shared that doubt. There were 37 States in the Union at the time, so ratification by at least 28 was necessary to make the amendment an integral part of the Constitution. Actually, only 21 States legally ratified it. So it failed of ratification.

 The undisputed record, attested by official journals and the unanimous writings of historians, establishes these events as occurring in 1867 and 1868:

Outside the South, six States — New Jersey, Ohio, Kentucky, California, Delaware and Maryland — failed to ratify the proposed amendment.
In the South, ten States — Texas, Arkansas, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi and Louisiana — by formal action of their legislatures, rejected it under the normal processes of civil law.
A total of 16 legislatures out of 37 failed legally to ratify the "Fourteenth Amendment."
Congress — which had deprived the Southern States of their seats in the Senate — did not lawfully pass the resolution of submission in the first instance.
The Southern States which had rejected the amendment were coerced by a federal statute passed in 1867 that took away the right to vote or hold office from all citizens who had served in the Confederate Army. Military governors were appointed and instructed to prepare the roll of voters. All this happened in spite of the presidential proclamation of amnesty previously issued by the President. New legislatures were thereupon chosen and forced to "ratify" under penalty of continued exile from the Union. In Louisiana, a General sent down from the North presided over the State legislature.
 Abraham Lincoln had declared many times that the Union was "inseparable" and "indivisible." After his death, and when the war was over, the ratification by the Southern States of the Thirteenth Amendment, abolishing slavery, had been accepted as legal. But Congress in the 1867 law imposed the specific conditions under which the Southern States would be "entitled to representation in Congress."
Congress, in passing the 1867 law that declared the Southern States could not have their seats in either the Senate or House in the next session unless they ratified the "Fourteenth Amendment," took an unprecedented step. No such right — to compel a State by an act of Congress to ratify a constitutional amendment — is to be found anywhere in the Constitution. Nor has this procedure ever been sanctioned by the Supreme Court of the United States.
President Andrew Johnson publicly denounced this law as unconstitutional. But it was passed over his veto.
Secretary of State Seward was on the spot in July 1868 when the various "ratifications" of a spurious nature were placed before him. The legislatures of Ohio and New Jersey had notified him that they rescinded their earlier action of ratification. He said in his official proclamation that he was not authorized as Secretary of State "to determine and decide doubtful questions as to the authenticity of the organization of State legislatures or as to the power of any State legislature to recall a previous act or resolution of ratification." He added that the amendment was valid "if the resolutions of the legislatures of Ohio and New Jersey, ratifying the aforesaid amendment, are to be deemed as remaining of full force and effect, notwithstanding the subsequent resolutions of the legislatures of these States." This was a very big "if." It will be noted that the real issue, therefore, is not only whether the forced "ratification" by the ten Southern States was lawful, but whether the withdrawal by the legislatures of Ohio and New Jersey — two Northern States — was legal. The right of a State, by action of its legislature, to change its mind at any time before the final proclamation of ratification is issued by the Secretary of State has been confirmed in connection with other constitutional amendments.
The Oregon Legislature in October 1868 — three months after the Secretary's proclamation was issued — passed a rescinding resolution, which argued that the "Fourteenth Amendment" had not been ratified by three fourths of the States and that the "ratifications" in the Southern States were "usurpations, unconstitutional, revolutionary and void" and that, "until such ratification is completed, any State has a right to withdraw its assent to any proposed amendment."
What do the historians say about all this? The Encyclopedia Americana states:

"Reconstruction added humiliation to suffering.... Eight years of crime, fraud, and corruption followed and it was State legislatures composed of Negroes, carpetbaggers and scalawags who obeyed the orders of the generals and ratified the amendment."

W. E. Woodward, in his famous work, "A New American History?" published in 1936, says:

"To get a clear idea of the succession of events let us review [President Andrew] Johnson's actions in respect to the ex-Confederate States.

"In May, 1865, he issued a Proclamation of Amnesty to former rebels. Then he established provisional governments in all the Southern States. They were instructed to call Constitutional Conventions. They did. New State governments were elected. White men only had the suffrage the Fifteenth Amendment establishing equal voting rights had not yet been passed]. Senators and Representatives were chosen, but when they appeared at the opening of Congress they were refused admission. The State governments, however, continued to function during 1866.

"Now we are in 1867. In the early days of that year [Thaddeus] Stevens brought in, as chairman of the House Reconstruction Committee, a bill that proposed to sweep all the Southern State governments into the wastebasket. The South was to be put under military rule.

"The bill passed. It was vetoed by Johnson and passed again over his veto. In the Senate it was amended in such fashion that any State could escape from military rule and be restored to its full rights by ratifying the Fourteenth Amendment and admitting black as well as white men to the polls."

In challenging its constitutionality, President Andrew Johnson said in his veto message:

"I submit to Congress whether this measure is not in its whole character, scope and object without precedent and without authority, in palpable conflict with the plainest provisions of the Constitution, and utterly destructive of those great principles of liberty and humanity for which our ancestors on both sides of the Atlantic have shed so much blood and expended so much treasure."

Many historians have applauded Johnson's words. Samuel Eliot Morison and Henry Steele Commager, known today as "liberals," wrote in their book, "The Growth of the American Republic":

"Johnson returned the bill with a scorching message arguing the unconstitutionality of the whole thing, and most impartial students have agreed with his reasoning."

James Truslow Adams, another noted historian, writes in his "History of the United States":

"The Supreme Court had decided three months earlier, in the Milligan case, ... that military courts were unconstitutional except under such war conditions as might make the operation of civil courts impossible, but the President pointed out in vain that practically the whole of the new legislation was unconstitutional. ... There was even talk in Congress of impeaching the Supreme Court for its decisions! The legislature had run amok and was threatening both the Executive and the Judiciary."

Actually, President Johnson was impeached, but the move failed by one vote in the Senate.

The Supreme Court, in case after case, refused to pass on the illegal activities involved in "ratification." It said simply that they were acts of the "political departments of the Government." This, of course, was a convenient device of avoidance. The Court has adhered to that position ever since Reconstruction Days.

Andrew C. McLaughlin, whose "Constitutional History of the United States" is a standard work, writes:

"Can a State which is not a State and not recognized as such by Congress, perform the supreme duty of ratifying an amendment to the fundamental law? Or does a State — by congressional thinking — cease to be a State for some purposes but not for others?"

This is the tragic history of the so-called "Fourteenth Amendment" — a record that is a disgrace to free government and a "government of law."

Isn't the use of military force to override local government what we deplored in Hungary?

It is never too late to correct injustice. The people of America should have an opportunity to pass on an amendment to the Constitution that sets forth the right of the Federal Government to control education and regulate attendance at public schools either with federal power alone or concurrently with the States.

That's the honest way, the just way to deal with the problem of segregation or integration in the schools. Until such an amendment is adopted, the "Fourteenth Amendment" should be considered as null and void.

There is only one supreme tribunal — it is the people themselves. Their sovereign will is expressed through the procedures set forth in the Constitution itself.

[END]

[OCR'd text from U.S. News & World Report, September 27, 1957, page 140 et seq.]
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #131 on: July 31, 2015, 09:24:29 pm »
A MISTAKEN BELIEF — that there is a valid article in the Constitution known as the "Fourteenth Amendment" — is responsible for the Supreme Court decision of 1954 and the ensuing controversy over desegregation in the public schools of America. No such amendment was ever legally ratified by three fourths of the States of the Union as required by the Constitution itself. The so-called "Fourteenth Amendment" was dubiously proclaimed by the Secretary of State on July 20, 1868. The President shared that doubt. There were 37 States in the Union at the time, so ratification by at least 28 was necessary to make the amendment an integral part of the Constitution. Actually, only 21 States legally ratified it. So it failed of ratification.

Yeah, it's pretty sad the facts that are and have been suppressed.

It's crystal-clear that the federal government has been usurping the powers of the States and the people and using those powers against them for a very long time.



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Offline Bigun

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #132 on: July 31, 2015, 09:30:15 pm »
Yeah, it's pretty sad the facts that are and have been suppressed.

It's crystal-clear that the federal government has been usurping the powers of the States and the people and using those powers against them for a very long time.

ONly since 1860 or so!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #133 on: July 31, 2015, 11:31:43 pm »
You guys can live in that ante-bellum society.  The 14th Amendment is part of the Constitution and I doubt any lawsuit would go any further than the trash can.  As I said before, if only the states could determine which rights existed, what a paradise this would be.  And they wouldn't be bound by those first 8 amendments which some still believe only restrict the federal government.  The South would have been able to secede, wars would have been fought over the Western states, blacks would not be able to claim any rights existed for them...or even that they might be citizens.  I might not have been able to get married.  No birth control, lots of back-alley abortions, no privacy in anyone's bedroom...blacks would have to be in their own schools.  I wouldn't have moved to South Carolina and would miss out on peach season.

Hey, why don't you guys start a lawsuit to invalidate Reconstruction and the 14th Amendment.  Orly Taitz told me she's already prepared a case... :smokin: 
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Offline Bigun

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #134 on: August 01, 2015, 12:02:15 am »
You guys can live in that ante-bellum society.  The 14th Amendment is part of the Constitution and I doubt any lawsuit would go any further than the trash can.  As I said before, if only the states could determine which rights existed, what a paradise this would be.  And they wouldn't be bound by those first 8 amendments which some still believe only restrict the federal government.  The South would have been able to secede, wars would have been fought over the Western states, blacks would not be able to claim any rights existed for them...or even that they might be citizens.  I might not have been able to get married.  No birth control, lots of back-alley abortions, no privacy in anyone's bedroom...blacks would have to be in their own schools.  I wouldn't have moved to South Carolina and would miss out on peach season.

Hey, why don't you guys start a lawsuit to invalidate Reconstruction and the 14th Amendment.  Orly Taitz told me she's already prepared a case... :smokin:

You can make light of whatever you wish Mac but in the end the TRUTH still matters. Abe Lincoln walked all over the Constitution and opened wide the doors through which every progressive since has walked. That is the TRUTH whether or not you or anyone else here EVER recognize the fact!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #135 on: August 01, 2015, 12:27:50 am »
You can make light of whatever you wish Mac but in the end the TRUTH still matters. Abe Lincoln walked all over the Constitution and opened wide the doors through which every progressive since has walked. That is the TRUTH whether or not you or anyone else here EVER recognize the fact!

I make light only of the tinfoil nature of some "historians" and their beliefs that somehow things were better before 1860 because of the sovereignty of the states and their individual determination of what rights people should have.

But the rest was not offered lightly.  We are a great Country not simply because of our good history and Constitution, but because we threw off the evils of slavery and time after time rejected the attempts to curtail individual rights and freedoms.  No Bigun, it was not all tongue-in-cheek humor. 
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Offline Bigun

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #136 on: August 01, 2015, 01:05:33 am »
I make light only of the tinfoil nature of some "historians" and their beliefs that somehow things were better before 1860 because of the sovereignty of the states and their individual determination of what rights people should have.

But the rest was not offered lightly.  We are a great Country not simply because of our good history and Constitution, but because we threw off the evils of slavery and time after time rejected the attempts to curtail individual rights and freedoms.  No Bigun, it was not all tongue-in-cheek humor.

And those things, according to you, would never have happened without all of the illegalities under Lincoln and after!  I don't believe that for a second!

You sound just like Obama and Kerry!  It's the Iran deal or WAR?  Well NO! It isn't!

« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 01:07:43 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #137 on: August 01, 2015, 02:01:09 am »
And those things, according to you, would never have happened without all of the illegalities under Lincoln and after!  I don't believe that for a second!

You sound just like Obama and Kerry!  It's the Iran deal or WAR?  Well NO! It isn't!

You edited your post.  Can't imagine what it said before.  If I understand what you were trying to say in the first sentence, certainly the rights amendments wouldn't have happened in the South, nor would any of the several civil rights laws enacted beginning in 1865.  The South wouldn't have needed their infamous Black Codes, since slavery would have been required by every state.  But the 14th Amendment cases didn't involve just the Southern states by any stretch, as challenges to laws under the due process and equal protection amendments have emanated from every part of the Country.

I do know that war would have ultimately come regardless, since the South absolutely wanted more slave states and considered the West open to such claims.  It was one of the big issues leading to the Civil War.

But all of that aside, you don't believe any of it, so fine.  I can't understand Americans, especially conservatives making a case for "states rights", especially slave states, over the rights and freedoms of individuals. 

But in any case, please don't toss the Obama/Kerry BS at me again, thanks.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #138 on: August 01, 2015, 02:22:21 am »
You edited your post.  Can't imagine what it said before.  If I understand what you were trying to say in the first sentence, certainly the rights amendments wouldn't have happened in the South, nor would any of the several civil rights laws enacted beginning in 1865.  The South wouldn't have needed their infamous Black Codes, since slavery would have been required by every state.  But the 14th Amendment cases didn't involve just the Southern states by any stretch, as challenges to laws under the due process and equal protection amendments have emanated from every part of the Country.

I do know that war would have ultimately come regardless, since the South absolutely wanted more slave states and considered the West open to such claims.  It was one of the big issues leading to the Civil War.

But all of that aside, you don't believe any of it, so fine.  I can't understand Americans, especially conservatives making a case for "states rights", especially slave states, over the rights and freedoms of individuals. 

But in any case, please don't toss the Obama/Kerry BS at me again, thanks.

OK Mac! It's very clear to me that you and I are never going to see eye to eye on much of anything and I have no wish to further injure your delicate sensibilities so I'll just leave it as it is.

I edited both this and my previous post only to correct spelling errors. I do that a lot these days.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 02:33:32 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #139 on: August 01, 2015, 02:59:09 am »
OK Mac! It's very clear to me that you and I are never going to see eye to eye on much of anything and I have no wish to further injure your delicate sensibilities so I'll just leave it as it is.

I edited both this and my previous post only to correct spelling errors. I do that a lot these days.

Trust me Bigun, there's nothing about me you could injure.  Just keep the silly attempts at ad hominums to yourself if you can't just debate an issue.  But I do agree with you, there's not much we agree on.

Have a nice evening.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #140 on: August 01, 2015, 04:46:21 am »
You edited your post.  Can't imagine what it said before.  If I understand what you were trying to say in the first sentence, certainly the rights amendments wouldn't have happened in the South, nor would any of the several civil rights laws enacted beginning in 1865.  The South wouldn't have needed their infamous Black Codes, since slavery would have been required by every state.  But the 14th Amendment cases didn't involve just the Southern states by any stretch, as challenges to laws under the due process and equal protection amendments have emanated from every part of the Country.

I do know that war would have ultimately come regardless, since the South absolutely wanted more slave states and considered the West open to such claims.  It was one of the big issues leading to the Civil War.

But all of that aside, you don't believe any of it, so fine.  I can't understand Americans, especially conservatives making a case for "states rights", especially slave states, over the rights and freedoms of individuals. 

But in any case, please don't toss the Obama/Kerry BS at me again, thanks.

Bigun knew Jeff Davis.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: The Big Gay Marriage Lie
« Reply #141 on: August 01, 2015, 05:19:56 am »
Bigun knew Jeff Davis.

Not personally i didn't but I have read a good deal about him!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien