Author Topic: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News  (Read 6581 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2015, 04:30:06 pm »
I see you're still arguing your  fallacy, Luis.  Who has said that AbaraXas grandmother is not a Christian based on her political acumen?

NO one.

You set up a false premise, and then dismiss it based on further false argumentation.

I've seen you argue your case well, Luis. 

Not working for you here......

You did.

You claim a level of knowledge that you can't possibly posses AND then you judge someone's Christianity based on a line of demarcation of your own making.

In your world a political decision by an Evangelical to elevate Huckabee's professed religious beliefs over his human shortcomings as a politician invalidates that voter's Christianity.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2015, 04:33:06 pm »
You did.

You claim a level of knowledge that you can't possibly posses AND then you judge someone's Christianity based on a line of demarcation of your own making.

In your world a political decision by an Evangelical to elevate Huckabee's professed religious beliefs over his human shortcomings as a politician invalidates that voter's Christianity.

Nope.  I didn't even come CLOSE to saying, thinking, or believing  that, Luis.

You really need to give this one up.  It's getting embarrassing for you.

Your pre-fab attacks aren't working with a real live, thinking person.....
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2015, 04:38:58 pm »
I see you're still arguing your  fallacy, Luis.  Who has said that AbaraXas grandmother is not a Christian based on her political acumen?

NO one.

You set up a false premise, and then dismiss it based on further false argumentation.

I've seen you argue your case well, Luis. 

Not working for you here......

YOU set up the false premise when YOU said that no true Evangelicwl would knowingly vote for anyone that's corrupted.

You CAN'T know that.

Yours was a false premise and a textbook fallacy.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2015, 04:47:58 pm »
YOU set up the false premise when YOU said that no true Evangelicwl would knowingly vote for anyone that's corrupted.

You CAN'T know that.

Yours was a false premise and a textbook fallacy.

I have explained my point clearly and logically.

If you haven't been able to understand it (which is crystal clear from this post), I can't help you. 

 :seeya:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2015, 04:49:30 pm »
Here's the problem with your "No True Evangelical Christian would knowingly support" a corrupt politician statement musiclady.

Many, millions in fact, of true Evangelicals may have very well decided to support Huckabee IN SPITE of his known issues with corruption because they believed him to be the best candidate in spite of that.

If I had a choice between Huck and a Democrat, I would vote for Huck, in spite of every misgiving I have about him and everything that I know about his record in office because I believe that he would still be a better choice than a Democrat.

Why would you impugn millions of Evangelical's Christianity for exercising their right to make the same choice?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2015, 04:50:29 pm »
I have explained my point clearly and logically.

If you haven't been able to understand it (which is crystal clear from this post), I can't help you. 

 :seeya:

No you haven't.

You've just defended your error without either clarity or logic.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2015, 05:06:01 pm »
The problem I see with this is group A knowing about fact B. We often over-estimate the knowledge of the voter because we are so connected to facts and issues. There is a sizable portion of the voting population who isn't. My grandmother is one. Thinks he is the bees knees, sweet little Baptist preacher. She isn't on the internet, doesn't frequent news programs but a few like Huck's. I know many blue hairs in church just like this. They probably have no clue he is corrupt or of they did, they would pass it off as the devil spreading lies about one of God's workers or something like that.  I often scratched my head wondering why so many vote for Huckabee in the polls, then I go to church and see the throngs of little old ladies who don't follow politics deeply, just want the preacher man, and it all makes sense.
How come the preachers' denominations do not excommunicate them? Could it be that some of them share in the takings, from fleecing their flocks?

Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, the Crouch's and a whole bunch of them?

http://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/2010/03/03/fleecing-the-flock-how-corrupt-is-christian-television/

« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 05:07:47 pm by truth_seeker »
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2015, 05:09:57 pm »
No you haven't.

You've just defended your error without either clarity or logic.

And I can say the same thing to you.

Because what you have imagined I said is not what I said, and what you want to believe I believe, is not what I believe.

That's what happens with pre-fab arguments, Luis.

You can't win them.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2015, 05:11:56 pm »
How come the preachers' denominations do not excommunicate them? Could it be that some of them share in the takings, from fleecing their flocks?

Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, the Crouch's and a whole bunch of them?

http://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/2010/03/03/fleecing-the-flock-how-corrupt-is-christian-television/

There is no 'excommunication' outside the Catholic Church.  Of course, the people you've listed are the rare exception to pastors within evangelical churches, and are actually criminals.

Hardly representative of the whole, t_s.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2015, 05:33:24 pm »
And I can say the same thing to you.

Because what you have imagined I said is not what I said, and what you want to believe I believe, is not what I believe.

That's what happens with pre-fab arguments, Luis.

You can't win them.

I "imagined" nothing, I simply read what you said:

"Evangelical Christians should never knowingly support corruption.

If they DO, then they're not actually Evangelical Christians."


Textbook No True Scotsman fallacy.

An EC may very well support a corrupt politician because they are voting on a perception of Christian values over political history, or simply because they see no better option to vote for, in spite of known corruption.

In the reverse, and in the case of Romney, they may NOT cast a vote as a result of of a difference over a politician's religion.

Your reasoning behind the validity of your usage of the fallacy notwithstanding, you engaged in a fallacy.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2015, 05:51:49 pm »
There is no 'excommunication' outside the Catholic Church.  Of course, the people you've listed are the rare exception to pastors within evangelical churches, and are actually criminals.

Hardly representative of the whole, t_s.
Then why don't those denominations get excommunication? Or loudly and publicly denounce the bad ones?

I happen to believe in a God, but I don't believe in following other men, which is what most organized religion seems to be. 

Every election cycle, the Republican hopefuls scramble to Colorado Springs, for the endorsement/approval from Dr. James Dobson. Did you know that Pastor Ted Haggard was once his protégée? So much for Dobson being a good judge of people.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2015, 05:57:33 pm »
How come the preachers' denominations do not excommunicate them? Could it be that some of them share in the takings, from fleecing their flocks?

Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, the Crouch's and a whole bunch of them?

http://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/2010/03/03/fleecing-the-flock-how-corrupt-is-christian-television/

Swaggart still has millions of followers.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2015, 05:59:50 pm »
I "imagined" nothing, I simply read what you said:

"Evangelical Christians should never knowingly support corruption.

If they DO, then they're not actually Evangelical Christians."


Textbook No True Scotsman fallacy.

An EC may very well support a corrupt politician because they are voting on a perception of Christian values over political history, or simply because they see no better option to vote for, in spite of known corruption.

In the reverse, and in the case of Romney, they may NOT cast a vote as a result of of a difference over a politician's religion.

Your reasoning behind the validity of your usage of the fallacy notwithstanding, you engaged in a fallacy.

You really feel the need to win this, don't you?

I'll let you 'win,' then, facts notwithstanding.


I've clarified my points for anyone with an open mind, and the ability to reason and discern.  I know you can do that in other areas.  You clearly can't on this one.

Your loss, Luis.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2015, 06:08:46 pm »
Then why don't those denominations get excommunication? Or loudly and publicly denounce the bad ones?

I happen to believe in a God, but I don't believe in following other men, which is what most organized religion seems to be. 

Every election cycle, the Republican hopefuls scramble to Colorado Springs, for the endorsement/approval from Dr. James Dobson. Did you know that Pastor Ted Haggard was once his protégée? So much for Dobson being a good judge of people.

I have no control over what denominations do, t_s.

What I see you arguing here, however, is that human beings are sinful, and as I have previously stated, some are gullible and easily led astray.  That's true of any group of people.

The only answer is in the person of Jesus Christ, and in His forgiveness.  Not everyone who calls himself a "Christian" is a Christ follower.  But if you argue against church based on the sinfulness of its members, you won't get very far.

The only requirement for becoming a Christian is admitting that one is a sinner and that Christ, through His death and resurrection, is the only answer for you.  It doesn't keep anyone from sinning because we're still in a fallen world, but it does mean that those who are true Christ-followers will ask forgiveness and try not to continue in that sin.

There are a myriad of examples of other Christian leaders who aren't the cads you continue to use to represent them.  What about Billy Graham?  Tim Keller?  Ravi Zacharias?  Josh MacDowell?

The fact that you use the few to represent the whole is an indication that you're not actually being a "truth seeker" in this particular area.  If you're seeking the truth, then you know that Ted Haggard is a creep and an unrepentant sinner.  NOT the face of evangelical Christianity.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2015, 06:10:58 pm »
You really feel the need to win this, don't you?

I'll let you 'win,' then, facts notwithstanding.


I've clarified my points for anyone with an open mind, and the ability to reason and discern.  I know you can do that in other areas.  You clearly can't on this one.

Your loss, Luis.

Pot.

Kettle.

Black.

Clarifying the reasons behind why you engaged in a logical fallacy is what everyone who engages in a logical fallacy does.

"Oh crap! You're right! I engaged in a logical fallacy!" Said no one, ever.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2015, 06:13:45 pm »
We always have to keep in mind that we, as Republicans, cannot lose.

Any one of our candidates, any of them, (including Huckster, which is not my choice) will be 1000 times better than the racist, anti-American, Black Muslim Communist that we have now.

Maybe I am thinking in 'baby steps', but the first goal has to be to kick the anti-Christian, anti-Israel, anti-American, Islamist we have now out on his Black ass. And the rest of his racist, pro-Muslim 'crew' will go with him.


Huckster will never in a million years get elected.  Nominating him is the functional equivalent of putting Hillary in the White House.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2015, 06:14:34 pm »

Huckster will never in a million years get elected.  Nominating him is the functional equivalent of putting Hillary in the White House.

There's a number of nominees who fit that bill.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2015, 06:19:46 pm »
I have no control over what denominations do, t_s.

What I see you arguing here, however, is that human beings are sinful, and as I have previously stated, some are gullible and easily led astray.  That's true of any group of people.

The only answer is in the person of Jesus Christ, and in His forgiveness.  Not everyone who calls himself a "Christian" is a Christ follower.  But if you argue against church based on the sinfulness of its members, you won't get very far.

The only requirement for becoming a Christian is admitting that one is a sinner and that Christ, through His death and resurrection, is the only answer for you.  It doesn't keep anyone from sinning because we're still in a fallen world, but it does mean that those who are true Christ-followers will ask forgiveness and try not to continue in that sin.

There are a myriad of examples of other Christian leaders who aren't the cads you continue to use to represent them.  What about Billy Graham?  Tim Keller?  Ravi Zacharias?  Josh MacDowell?

The fact that you use the few to represent the whole is an indication that you're not actually being a "truth seeker" in this particular area.  If you're seeking the truth, then you know that Ted Haggard is a creep and an unrepentant sinner.  NOT the face of evangelical Christianity.

Yet, you continue to defend your statement that the single act of knowingly supporting a corrupt politician invalidates someone's Evangelical Christian chops, and of not being actually Evangelical Christians irrespective of everything else that they may have done as an Evangelical Christian in their lives.

You are willing to judge a person's entire Christianity based on one act, just as you accuse him of not being a "truth seeker" for judging the entire religion based on the actions of a few.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 06:21:14 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2015, 06:32:07 pm »
Yet, you continue to defend your statement that the single act of knowingly supporting a corrupt politician invalidates someone's Evangelical Christian chops, and of not being actually Evangelical Christians irrespective of everything else that they may have done as an Evangelical Christian in their lives.

You are willing to judge a person's entire Christianity based on one act, just as you accuse him of not being a "truth seeker" for judging the entire religion based on the actions of a few.

Not true.

Period.

I've clarified.

You've covered your eyes.

Your loss.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2015, 06:33:05 pm »

Huckster will never in a million years get elected.  Nominating him is the functional equivalent of putting Hillary in the White House.

He won't be nominated either.  He may siphon a vote or two here or there, but he's not going anywhere with this strong field.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 06:33:40 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2015, 06:35:01 pm »
Not true.

Period.

I've clarified.

You've covered your eyes.

Your loss.

No. you're trying to throw a cover over what you say... twice now.

"Evangelical Christians should never knowingly support corruption.

If they DO, then they're not actually Evangelical Christians."


Is the same as:

Quote
No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing; this fallacy also applies to defining a term or criteria biasedly as to defend it from counterargument which can be identified as a biased, persuasive, or rhetorical definition. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X.

Textbook.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2015, 06:43:44 pm »
No. you're trying to throw a cover over what you say... twice now.

"Evangelical Christians should never knowingly support corruption.

If they DO, then they're not actually Evangelical Christians."


Is the same as:

Textbook.

Yikes.

You're getting kind of pathetic here, Luis.

So I'm giving in and admitting that you've beaten me with your pre-fab and very cute argument here.

And that I'm a horrible human being........ 

Go Huckabee!!     :tongue2:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2015, 06:50:18 pm »

The fact that you use the few to represent the whole is an indication that you're not actually being a "truth seeker" in this particular area.  If you're seeking the truth, then you know that Ted Haggard is a creep and an unrepentant sinner.  NOT the face of evangelical Christianity.
Yet Ted still gathers a flock.

I am guided by my own life experiences, starting with the (married) preacher of our church, running away with my father's (married) secretary. Our family was very active. My dad was the "owner-builder" of the new sanctuary, and I lit the candles and took the offering plates.

My wife and I were married in that sanctuary, because her Catholic church would not marry us.

I was really, really turned off by a chaplain in the Army, who dismissed my moral, philosophical worries, with "son, go kill a Commie for Christ."

What I object to is the idea that the President of the US has to first and foremost satisfy "evangelicals," as if they should wield such power above everybody else.

Taking a recent example in the life of our country, many argue that a significant number of evangelicals refused to vote for Romney for religious reasons alone, giving us the current President.

Finally I am a recovered alcoholic. Now over 21 years clean and sober. I am active and have studied recovery. Catholic churches and moderate Protestant churches in my area provide meeting space for 12 step meetings. None of the evangelical churches have meetings. The prevailing idea there is, you don't need those meetings. We can fix you here.

Like I said, I refer to my life experiences. I don't care very much for any organized religions.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline evadR

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2015, 06:57:00 pm »
Deer Fly 101 thread
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee Set to Announce 2016 Decision Tonight on Fox News
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2015, 07:04:04 pm »
Yikes.

You're getting kind of pathetic here, Luis.

So I'm giving in and admitting that you've beaten me with your pre-fab and very cute argument here.

And that I'm a horrible human being........ 

Go Huckabee!!     :tongue2:

No, you're not a horrible human being.

You just engaged in a fallacy.

It happens.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx