Author Topic: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law  (Read 17831 times)

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #200 on: April 03, 2015, 05:15:24 pm »
Here's something else.

A guy walks into a Christian-owned bakery and orders a large cake that says "Congratulations Neil and Bob" (yes... that's intentional). The baker looks up and says "What's the occasion" and the guy says "none of your business, I just want a cake".

Now what?

Eff 'im.  It's not a wedding cake.  Neil and Bob (groan!) could be business partners.  Make the friggin' cake and be done with it.  Or not.  (Sorry, I always get wishy washy on Fridays.)
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline evadR

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #201 on: April 03, 2015, 05:17:24 pm »
LOL!
My thoughts precisely.
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Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #202 on: April 03, 2015, 05:19:56 pm »
 
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #203 on: April 03, 2015, 05:39:22 pm »
Here's something else.

A guy walks into a Christian-owned bakery and orders a large cake that says "Congratulations Neil and Bob" (yes... that's intentional). The baker looks up and says "What's the occasion" and the guy says "none of your business, I just want a cake".

Now what?

It's up to the baker. If he doesn't care to ask (and presumably doesn't care to know), then he'll bake the cake.
 
If he has a problem with it, morally speaking, then he might say that he'll bake the cake, but won't add the verbiage. Or not. His choice, entirely.
 
The use of state police power to force a person to violate his conscience, no matter how wrong a temporary majority may believe that person to be, is tyrannical.
 
The truth is, people used to work things out like this by choosing who to deal with voluntarily, or agreeing to disagree, and moving on. Today, they sue.
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Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #204 on: April 03, 2015, 05:48:06 pm »

The truth is, people used to work things out like this by choosing who to deal with voluntarily, or agreeing to disagree, and moving on. Today, they sue.

Yes, but first they must become outraged and call in support to help them in their rage.  Instant and widespread communication and ready enablers.  What a combo. 
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #205 on: April 03, 2015, 05:52:10 pm »

It's up to the baker. If he doesn't care to ask (and presumably doesn't care to know), then he'll bake the cake.
 
If he has a problem with it, morally speaking, then he might say that he'll bake the cake, but won't add the verbiage. Or not. His choice, entirely.
 
The use of state police power to force a person to violate his conscience, no matter how wrong a temporary majority may believe that person to be, is tyrannical.
 
The truth is, people used to work things out like this by choosing who to deal with voluntarily, or agreeing to disagree, and moving on. Today, they sue.

And as those lawsuits begin to mount up as a result of a law that was (may still be) too broad, the courts will begin to define the parameters of the exchanges between people of faith who own businesses and those who may challenge their faith by their actions, and the next thing we know, the complaint will be that the Courts wrote laws again.

It's inevitable.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #206 on: April 03, 2015, 05:54:29 pm »
mass wrote above:
[[ I find your pretzel logic fascinating, frankly.  You are a professed libertarian and you don't know the answer to that question? ]]

I thought "pretzel logic" was a tool of EVERY "libertarian".... ;)

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #207 on: April 03, 2015, 05:57:35 pm »
Luis wrote above:
[[ I'm uncomfortable with the idea of basing secular laws on religious beliefs ]]

Then you'd be at odds with this guy:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
- John Adams

Offline aligncare

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #208 on: April 03, 2015, 05:58:34 pm »

It's up to the baker. If he doesn't care to ask (and presumably doesn't care to know), then he'll bake the cake.
 
If he has a problem with it, morally speaking, then he might say that he'll bake the cake, but won't add the verbiage. Or not. His choice, entirely.
 
The use of state police power to force a person to violate his conscience, no matter how wrong a temporary majority may believe that person to be, is tyrannical.
 
The truth is, people used to work things out like this by choosing who to deal with voluntarily, or agreeing to disagree, and moving on. Today, they sue.

Gosh, a voice of sanity. Thank you.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #209 on: April 03, 2015, 06:07:13 pm »
Luis wrote above:
[[ I'm uncomfortable with the idea of basing secular laws on religious beliefs ]]

Then you'd be at odds with this guy:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
- John Adams

Two things.

That's not a law by any measure of the definition of the word.

Made for a certain type of individual does not translate into crafted strictly to reflect the religious beliefs of those individuals. 

So then, anyone who claims to be an amoral atheist can't be forced to live under and be bound by the letter of our Constitution?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #210 on: April 03, 2015, 06:19:46 pm »
Luis wrote above:
[[ I'm uncomfortable with the idea of basing secular laws on religious beliefs ]]

Then you'd be at odds with this guy:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
- John Adams

As an aside, and in concert with your post, atheist homosexuals wanting a wedding cake to be baked have no reason to respect that baker's religious freedoms enshrined in the Constirution since said Constitution does not apply to them.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #211 on: April 03, 2015, 06:39:06 pm »
Luis wrote above:
[[ I'm uncomfortable with the idea of basing secular laws on religious beliefs ]]

Then you'd be at odds with this guy:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
- John Adams

John Adams was far more religious than many of his peers and such an interpretation isn't surprising.  But that perception has been used on these forums for several years, almost always to justify Christian political goals.  Would it be equally as pertinent in justifying, say, Sharia law or certain Mormon practices?  While the 14th Amendment restricts only government entities from most (not all) discrimination, it does not prevent government from enacting laws to restrict discrimination. 

As this excellent thread has shown however is that there are legitimate concerns from both sides when the religious rights of individuals conflict with the laws against discrimination.  For me the issue is less selling a product routinely kept in inventory, rather requiring a business to use its creative abilities to sell services that would conflict with the owner's religious principles. 

Obama's EEOC has concluded Muslim drivers can refuse to transport alcohol due to their religious principles.  Muslim cabbies are still refusing to pick up passengers who have been drinking, or carrying alcohol.  Even seeing-eye dogs have been refused by Muslims.

It's an issue that the courts will have to work with, and I doubt state and federal courts will agree on any of the aspects of these complex challenges.
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Offline 240B

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #212 on: April 03, 2015, 06:47:50 pm »
Nothing all that complex about it.
Just another aspect of Obamas fundemental tranformation as he openly promised he would do.

We are currently living in 1936, redux.
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #213 on: April 03, 2015, 06:50:31 pm »
Eff 'im.  It's not a wedding cake.  Neil and Bob (groan!) could be business partners.  Make the friggin' cake and be done with it.  Or not.  (Sorry, I always get wishy washy on Fridays.)

But what if it was "Bruce and Pierre?"   
:scared smiley:

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #214 on: April 03, 2015, 07:07:18 pm »
Nothing all that complex about it.
Just another aspect of Obamas fundemental tranformation as he openly promised he would do.

We are currently living in 1936, redux.

Disagree.  Yes Obama is certainly furthering his goals, but these issues have been around since reconstruction days, and after the 1964 Act, thousands of decisions have been made concerning discrimination in employment and services in the private sector.  It only escapes complexity if all laws prohibiting discrimination are all found to be unconstitutional when challenged under religious principles.  But then there's that darn old Muslim thingy,,,
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #215 on: April 03, 2015, 07:36:26 pm »
 

                         


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #216 on: April 03, 2015, 07:43:50 pm »
Disagree.  Yes Obama is certainly furthering his goals, but these issues have been around since reconstruction days, and after the 1964 Act, thousands of decisions have been made concerning discrimination in employment and services in the private sector.  It only escapes complexity if all laws prohibiting discrimination are all found to be unconstitutional when challenged under religious principles.  But then there's that darn old Muslim thingy,,,

I'm thinking that since Lawrence v. Texas happened in 2003, Dubya must have been secretly transforming America in concert with the gay agenda people.

 
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #217 on: April 03, 2015, 07:50:50 pm »
But what if it was "Bruce and Pierre?"   
:scared smiley:

Then everybody is going straight to Hell.  They're making a nice room up right now!   :amen:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #218 on: April 03, 2015, 07:55:18 pm »
I'm thinking that since Lawrence v. Texas happened in 2003, Dubya must have been secretly transforming America in concert with the gay agenda people.

 000hehehehe
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #219 on: April 03, 2015, 07:56:03 pm »
And as those lawsuits begin to mount up as a result of a law that was (may still be) too broad, the courts will begin to define the parameters of the exchanges between people of faith who own businesses and those who may challenge their faith by their actions, and the next thing we know, the complaint will be that the Courts wrote laws again.

It's inevitable.

Hold on, now.  I don't think people are suing and lawsuits building up because of this law...the suits are happening in states without the law.  It's argued the whole point of the law is to prevent suits like this.  Of course, there is liable to be a lawsuit to challenge the law, but it's hardly fair to blame the plethora of lawsuits  (to force bakers to either bake cakes or go out of business) on this law.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #220 on: April 03, 2015, 07:58:05 pm »


                         

Right on!  If it were understood Atheism is a religion unto itself, a lot of this BS would never have happened.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #221 on: April 03, 2015, 07:59:58 pm »
Hold on, now.  I don't think people are suing and lawsuits building up because of this law...the suits are happening in states without the law.  It's argued the whole point of the law is to prevent suits like this.  Of course, there is liable to be a lawsuit to challenge the law, but it's hardly fair to blame the plethora of lawsuits  (to force bakers to either bake cakes or go out of business) on this law.

Are you serious?

That is the exact opposite of what's going to happen here.

Neil and Bob are black gay men, and they want to rent a hotel room somewhere in Indiana. The owner refuses them the room on the basis of his religious values, they sue him claiming that the religion angle was BS, and that he denied them the room because they are black.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #222 on: April 03, 2015, 08:04:10 pm »
As this excellent thread has shown however is that there are legitimate concerns from both sides when the religious rights of individuals conflict with the laws against discrimination. 

How nice it must be to be a commie leftist.  They hate all religions and love the state.  There is no conflict for them, no need to develop 10-page threads discussing the matter.  Just screw the people who have religious objections, jail them if they won't get out of the way.

Simplicity.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #223 on: April 03, 2015, 08:09:31 pm »
Right on!  If it were understood Atheism is a religion unto itself, a lot of this BS would never have happened.

Memes?

Really?

So then, if Indiana has a true Religious Freedom Restoration Act, then Mormons can engage in plural marriage and Rastafarians can smoke weed with impunity.

Right?

Wrong.

What we have here is a possible violation of the Establishment Clause, since it elevates a religion above all others by giving them impunity against possible legal action stemming from his refusal to serve gay couples, yet atheists who simply don't like gays and refuse to serve them enjoy no similar protection under the law. So the law creates an inequity.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Indiana governor backs down, calls for fix to religious law
« Reply #224 on: April 03, 2015, 08:10:19 pm »
Are you serious?

That is the exact opposite of what's going to happen here.

Neil and Bob are black gay men, and they want to rent a hotel room somewhere in Indiana. The owner refuses them the room on the basis of his religious values, they sue him claiming that the religion angle was BS, and that he denied them the room because they are black.

I am quite serious.  The law in Indiana is irrelevant.  You see the attempt at the law in Indiana as the basis for a whole bunch of lawsuits, yet the lawsuits we've been talking about predate laws trying to head them off.  I don't disagree there will be lawsuits to challenge what Indiana is trying to do, and there probably will be for the states with similar laws too, but the suits we are seeing today are because gays have butthurt, and are using existing laws to force shopkeepers to do what they want.  We've been talking about bakers making cakes, but this applies equally to florists and owners of venues who have already been sued into oblivion.

They didn't need a RFRA in Indiana to file those suits.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed: