Author Topic: Obama Dares GOP: Go Ahead, ‘Have a Vote on Whether What I’m Doing Is Legal…I Will Veto’ [ Obama: 'We've Expanded My Authorities'...]  (Read 6922 times)

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Offline aligncare

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Is the constitution that has served us so well for so long, so flawed and poorly thought out that it can't deal with a lawless president?

Offline Dexter

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Is the constitution that has served us so well for so long, so flawed and poorly thought out that it can't deal with a lawless president?

He is still acting inside the law; that's why impeachment won't work. If he was actually doing illegal things he could easily be impeached.
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Offline EdinVA

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He is still acting inside the law; that's why impeachment won't work. If he was actually doing illegal things he could easily be impeached.
   :silly:

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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   :silly:

You won't read this, and even if you do, you'll think yourself the greater Constitutional scholar and dismiss it.

Thoughts on the recent federal district court ruling against the Obama administration’s new immigration policy [updated with a brief response to Michael Ramsey]

By Ilya Somin
The Volokh Conspiracy

Yesterday, Texas federal district Judge Andrew Hanen issued an injunction against the Obama Administration’s new immigration policy, which defers the deportation of up to 4.3 million illegal immigrants. Judge Hanen’s lengthy opinion is available here. As co-blogger Jonathan Adler points out, the ruling does not hold either that Obama’s new policy is unconstitutional or that it violates federal statutes. It is limited to the conclusion that the policy violates the procedural requirements of the Administrative Procedure Act. But, as Josh Blackman notes, many of the arguments endorsed by Judge Hanen are similar to those advanced by opponents of the policy who claim that it is unconstitutional. Thus, the ruling potentially has significance beyond the specific issue it addresses.

Josh is also right to suggest that yesterday’s decision is much more carefully argued than an earlier poorly reasoned December federal district court decision in Pennsylvania, which concluded that the entire policy is unconstitutional. However, the two decisions have some important common weaknesses. Both misconstrue Obama’s new policy as a change in law rather than an exercise in enforcement discretion, and both rely on a dubious distinction between “case-by-case” discretion and more generalized policy judgments.

I. Deferring Deportation does not Amount to Creating “a New Law.”

Judge Hanen recognizes that the Department of Homeland Security (and presumably the president) has broad “authority…to dictate DHS objectives and marshal its resources accordingly.” Normally, the exercise of enforcement discretion by the president and his subordinates does not trigger a requirement of formal rulemaking under the APA, and is not unconstitutional. But Hanen claims that the administration’s new policy creates “a standard of conduct” that “has the force of law” and is “clearly contrary to Congress’ intent.” He claims that “[t]he DHS cannot reasonably claim that under a general delegation to establish enforcement policies, it can establish a blanket policy of nonenforcement that awards legal presence and benefits to otherwise removable aliens.” In his view, the administration’s policy is “in effect, a new law.”

As with the similar claim in the December decision, this reasoning fails because the administration’s decision does not actually have “the force of law” or legalize the status of previously illegal immigrants. While the administration has committed to a policy of not deporting those aliens who fall within the scope of the policy, it has not declared their presence in the US to be legal, nor given them any “benefits” that have the force of law (the benefits in question are primarily exemption from enforcement of federal laws banning the employment of illegal aliens [But see UPDATE #3 below on this point]. Both the acceptance of their presence in the US and the work permits can be withdrawn by President Obama or his successors at any time. By contrast, the executive cannot and does not have the power to revoke legal status that genuinely has the force of law, except perhaps in cases where Congress has specifically delegated the power to do so.

In this respect, as I have argued previously, the new policy is little different than numerous other situations where the executive branch chooses not to enforce a variety of federal laws in particular situations, such as the de facto policy of not enforcing federal laws banning marijuana possession on college campuses. The latter actually affects a far larger number of lawbreakers than Obama’s new immigration policy does. Some 70% of Americans have violated federal criminal law and millions have also violated various federal regulations that carry civil penalties. Every administration chooses to pursue only a small fraction of these cases, and in the process effectively exempts large categories of offenders from any legal sanction.

In some sense, both the marijuana policy and immigration policy are “contrary to Congress’ intent.” Both the ban on marijuana and federal immigration law are written in general terms that do not specifically authorize the selective enforcement various presidents have engaged in. But the same can be said of virtually every other situation where the executive punishes only a small subset of all those who violate a given federal law. Such cases are troubling. We should try to minimize their incidence by reducing the scope of federal law and ensuring that those federal laws on the books enjoy broad bipartisan support, so that administrations that fail to enforce them effectively will face political retribution. But, troubling as it does, wide-ranging use of executive discretion does not violate either the Constitution or the APA.

The exercise of executive discretion is even less problematic in the immigration field than in some others, because courts have long interpreted the relevant statutes as giving broad discretion to the president. As the Supreme Court noted in Arizona v. United States (2012), “[a]principal feature of the removal system is the broad discretion exercised by immigration officials” which, among other things, extends to deferring deportation based on humanitarian “concerns,” such as the ones that led the administration to defer it in the case of immigrants with longstanding family and other ties to the United States.


II. The President Can Use His Enforcement Discretion in ways that Restricts the Discretion of His Subordinates.

Both Judge Hanen and the December ruling also emphasize that the Obama immigration policy is unusual in that the relevant discretion is exercised almost entirely by the DHS Secretary and the President rather than on a “case-by-case” basis by lower-level officials. This argument, too, collapses under any close inspection, for reasons I outlined in my December Reason article on Obama’s policy:

Quote
Some argue there is a crucial distinction between case-by-case decisions not to prosecute (as with marijuana possession on campus) and a generalized, systematic policy of not doing so in a category of cases. But that distinction makes little sense…. Unless case-by-case exemptions are to be completely arbitrary and capricious, they must be guided by at least some general principles, such as the considerations relating to the risks posed by letting the offender go and the moral blameworthiness of his conduct. Once the legitimacy of using such principles to guide prosecutorial discretion is conceded—as it must be—then there is nothing wrong with announcing them in advance and applying them as general rules. If lower-level federal prosecutors and immigration officials can apply such principles, then their superiors—including the president—can issue orders requiring them to do so in a consistent and systematic way.

I would add that this argument privileging of lower-level officials is particularly strange coming from conservative supporters of the theory of the “unitary executive,” which holds that all power wielded by the executive branch must ultimately be controlled by the president (which includes many of those claiming that Obama’s policy is unconstitutional). As the nation’s highest-ranking federal law enforcement official, the president surely has the authority to regulate the use of discretion by his subordinates. He can also empower higher-ranking subordinates, such as the DHS Secretary in this case, to restrict the discretion of lower-level ones. And in a policy area where the president and the Secretary have thousands of subordinates who address hundreds of thousands of cases, often the only way for the president to effectively exercise his own discretion is to issue general policies restricting the discretion of lower-level officials.

I don’t claim that the above considerations definitively prove that the administration’s policy complies with the APA. I am not an APA expert, and there may be some issues I have overlooked. I do think, however, that these points undercut Judge Hanen’s main arguments.

Finally, it is worth mentioning that the first half of Judge Hanen’s lengthy opinion focuses on the question of whether the 26 states challenging Obama’s policy have standing to sue. He ultimately (correctly, in my view, concludes that they do). This is yet another interesting example of conservatives advocating relatively broad theories of standing in recent years, and some liberals advocating a relatively narrow approach. It is a further sign of the ongoing erosion of traditional ideological divisions on this issue, under which conservative Republicans once supported a restrictive approach to standing, while liberal Democrats took the opposite view. That division has given way to one in which both sides tend to approach standing issues opportunistically, adopting whichever approach is most likely to promote their substantive positions in a given case.

Overall, yesterdays’ decision is a modest victory for opponents of Obama’s policy. But the legal battle over this issue is just beginning. The administration will appeal the ruling to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. If a federal appellate court ends up invalidating the policy, the issue might well end up in the Supreme Court, though unlike Josh Blackman, I doubt it will happen soon.

UPDATE: Patrick Brennan of the National Review, an opponent of Obama’s policy, notes that Judge Hanen is a George W. Bush appointee with “a record of hawkish immigration opinions.” As Brennan points out, “[t]hat has no bearing on the logic of his decision, but it might suggest other judges won’t necessarily agree with Hanen’s reasoning.”

UPDATE #2 I: have edited the wording of of this post in a couple places to make it more clear.

UPDATE #3: The administration also claims that the Immigration and Naturalization Act gives it the authority to grant work permits that would exempt those holding them from future prosecution. But if this claim is not correct, that would not invalidate Obama’s entire policy, but would simply mean that the permits merely exempt them holders from prosecution for as long as they are covered by Obama’s policy itself. That inclusion can, in any event, be rescinded by the president at any time.

UPDATE #4: Michael Ramsey comments on this post here. He agrees that the administration has the power to defer deportation of the immigrants covered by the new policy, but argues it does not have authority to grant “affirmative benefits” such as the work permits. As I noted in the previous update, if these “benefits” are not authorized by statutory law, as the administration claims, then they amount simply to nonenforcement laws against employment of these particular illegal aliens. Ramsey also cites the three year “immunity” from the law. But that “immunity” is simply a formalization of nonenforcement and could be repealed at any time, and would not prevent future prosecution by either the Obama administration or a successor.

Finally, Ramsey suggests that the administration’s policy requires state governments to “to treat the covered persons as legally entitled to remain in and work in the United States on the same terms as legal immigrants” and may forbid private employers to refuse to hire them on the basis that their presence in the US is illegal. I am not aware of the new policy imposing any obligations on state governments beyond the ones they already have under decisions such as Arizona v. United States, which hold that some state laws intended to enforce immigration law are preempted by federal law. As for private employers, the administration’s position is that the immigrants covered by the new policy are still illegal. Moreover, there is no federal law forbidding private employers from discriminating based on legal status. Judicial and regulatory interpretations of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 do restrict such discrimination if it is a pretext for racial or ethnic discrimination, and in some cases if it has a “disparate impact” on particular racial and ethnic groups. I am no great fan of disparate impact law. But the new Obama immigration policy is not the source of it, and does not make it worse than it was before.

Ilya Somin is Professor of Law at George Mason University. His research focuses on constitutional law, property law, and popular political participation. He is the author of "The Grasping Hand: Kelo v. City of New London and the Limits of Eminent Domain" (forthcoming) and "Democracy and Political Ignorance: Why Smaller Government is Smarter."

My note: George Mason University is ranked as the 3rd most conservative University in the US, behind Liberty University and King's College.

Ilya Somin is a professor at the George Mason University School of Law, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute, a blogger for Volokh Conspiracy, and a former co-editor of the Supreme Court Economic Review.
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Offline ABX

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He is still acting inside the law; that's why impeachment won't work. If he was actually doing illegal things he could easily be impeached.

Bless your heart

Offline EdinVA

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You won't read this, and even if you do, you'll think yourself the greater Constitutional scholar and dismiss it.

So you found A lawyer to back up your side, OK.
They have very carefully woven between the requirements to not trip any triggers. 
Gotta give it to him, very smart. 
If it is not expressly illegal then it is legal....
that is why we have Hate crimes, it is not enough to have just a crime.
So we need another million pages of laws to define "is" because judges are incapable of determining intent of law.

So what about the other "executive actions"?

Offline Dexter

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Offline Carling

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What impeachable offense has Obama committed?  He hasn't perjured himself, has he?  He's expanding his power as President, but is that impeachable?  Is having his administration ignore court rulings impeachable?

I ask because I really don't know what he's done, and pretty much everything he's done I am opposed to, that would actually be an impeachable offense.

Perjury for Clinton was cut and dry.  Dems could argue the importance of the perjury, but it was an obvious violation of the law when he lied under oath.
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What impeachable offense has Obama committed?  He hasn't perjured himself, has he?  He's expanding his power as President, but is that impeachable?  Is having his administration ignore court rulings impeachable?

I ask because I really don't know what he's done, and pretty much everything he's done I am opposed to, that would actually be an impeachable offense.

Perjury for Clinton was cut and dry.  Dems could argue the importance of the perjury, but it was an obvious violation of the law when he lied under oath.

Is repeatingly lying to the American people an impeachable offense...I am asking cause I really don't know?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 12:27:34 am by mystery-ak »
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Offline Dexter

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Is repeatingly lying to the American people an impeachable offense...I am asking cause I really don't know?

Lying is not illegal unless you are under oath.
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Offline EdinVA

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Lying is not illegal unless you are under oath.

So, nothing is illegal and once we pick a sorry SOB for office, we just have to take crap until he/she decides to leave... ok, got it.
I guess that is all for me.....

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How about these just for starters.

Aug. 14, 2013: The Obama administration delayed the provision in ObamaCare to cap out-of-pocket health care costs, picking and choosing parts of the law to enforce, which is to exceed its authority.

July 17, 2013: The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals joined the federal appeals courts in D.C. and Philadelphia in ruling President Obama’s National Labor Relations Board recess appointments — who by law must be approved by Congress — were unconstitutional. Thus far, the president has ignored the ruling.

July 1, 2013: The Obama administration unilaterally decided to delay the employer mandate provision of ObamaCare for a year, which is to provide information to the feds about the extent of an applicant’s insurance. Never mind that the law states the mandate must go into effect on Jan. 1, 2014 — they are now relying on the “honor system” from applicants to determine if they are qualified for subsidies.

June 25, 2013: The Supreme Court ruled in Shelby County v. Eric Holder that Section 4 of the Voting Rights Act is “unconstitutional” and that “the formula can no longer be used as a basis for subjecting jurisdiction to preclearance.” Instead of complying with the ruling, Holder filed suit to order Texas to submit to preclearance, in defiance of Congress’ authority to legislate and the Supreme Court’s authority to rule on the constitutionality of the law.

June 15, 2012: The Obama administration announced it will stop deporting illegal immigrants under the age of 30 in a “deferred action” policy to circumvent immigration laws. This comes after Congress rejected a similar measure about a year ago. Since then, more than 500,000 illegals have received the deferment and only 20,000 have been rejected. As for the law-abiding applicants who have been waiting in line, well, that’s Obama’s idea of “lawfulness.”

May 20, 2013: A Washington Post article revealed that Fox News reporter James Rosen was investigated by the DOJ, which subpoenaed his phone records and emails in direct contravention of the First Amendment under the pretense of a leak investigation.
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How about these just for starters.

Aug. 14, 2013: The Obama administration delayed the provision in ObamaCare to cap out-of-pocket health care costs, picking and choosing parts of the law to enforce, which is to exceed its authority.

July 17, 2013: The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals joined the federal appeals courts in D.C. and Philadelphia in ruling President Obama’s National Labor Relations Board recess appointments — who by law must be approved by Congress — were unconstitutional. Thus far, the president has ignored the ruling.

July 1, 2013: The Obama administration unilaterally decided to delay the employer mandate provision of ObamaCare for a year, which is to provide information to the feds about the extent of an applicant’s insurance. Never mind that the law states the mandate must go into effect on Jan. 1, 2014 — they are now relying on the “honor system” from applicants to determine if they are qualified for subsidies.

June 25, 2013: The Supreme Court ruled in Shelby County v. Eric Holder that Section 4 of the Voting Rights Act is “unconstitutional” and that “the formula can no longer be used as a basis for subjecting jurisdiction to preclearance.” Instead of complying with the ruling, Holder filed suit to order Texas to submit to preclearance, in defiance of Congress’ authority to legislate and the Supreme Court’s authority to rule on the constitutionality of the law.

June 15, 2012: The Obama administration announced it will stop deporting illegal immigrants under the age of 30 in a “deferred action” policy to circumvent immigration laws. This comes after Congress rejected a similar measure about a year ago. Since then, more than 500,000 illegals have received the deferment and only 20,000 have been rejected. As for the law-abiding applicants who have been waiting in line, well, that’s Obama’s idea of “lawfulness.”

May 20, 2013: A Washington Post article revealed that Fox News reporter James Rosen was investigated by the DOJ, which subpoenaed his phone records and emails in direct contravention of the First Amendment under the pretense of a leak investigation.

You can add all the times Obama used the IRS to intimidate his political enemies....let's see..didn't a disgraced President resign for doing something similar.....thinking :pondering:
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Offline GourmetDan

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You can add all the times Obama used the IRS to intimidate his political enemies....let's see..didn't a disgraced President resign for doing something similar.....thinking :pondering:

Yeah but that guy loved America more than he loved himself...


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Offline ABX

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Lying is not illegal unless you are under oath.

Actually not. Under 18 U.S.C. Section 1001, it is illegal to knowingly lie to a federal agent or officer (not just law enforcement), no matter if you are under oath or not.  The initial lie that put Martha Stewart in jail was not under oath but simply a statement to a SEC officer. The lie doesn't even have to be part of the investigation of a crime or wrongdoing, simply lying for any reason to a federal agent. United States v. Yermian , 468 U.S. 63, 69 (1984)

Offline GourmetDan

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Under 18 U.S.C. Section 1001, it is illegal to knowingly lie to a federal agent or officer (not just law enforcement), no matter if you are under oath or not.

Interestingly, it is not illegal for a federal agent or officer to knowingly lie to an American citizen, no matter if they are under oath or not...


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Online libertybele

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If they truly hold that vote—and that would be an IMPEACHMENT vote, by the way—the President would not have the authority to veto.

But…that's not going to happen and we all know it.

Perhaps it may not happen or perhaps things will continue to get so out of control that Congress (Reps and Dems) will have no choice.  Otherwise, forget about another election as we will truly have a dictatorship.

I've been saying this for well over a year:

IMPEACHMENT:  It's the Right thing to do!  :patriot:
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Online Bigun

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So, nothing is illegal and once we pick a sorry SOB for office, we just have to take crap until he/she decides to leave... ok, got it.
I guess that is all for me.....

Actually that has very little to do with anything!

Here is what the Constitution says on the subject verbatim:

Article II, Section 4

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

That's the sum total of it so if the Congress decided that serial lying by a president to the American people was a high crime or misdemeanor they would be well within their rights to impeach and remove from office that president.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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So you found A lawyer to back up your side, OK.
They have very carefully woven between the requirements to not trip any triggers. 
Gotta give it to him, very smart. 
If it is not expressly illegal then it is legal....
that is why we have Hate crimes, it is not enough to have just a crime.
So we need another million pages of laws to define "is" because judges are incapable of determining intent of law.

So what about the other "executive actions"?

I didn't find "some lawyer".

Ilya Somin is Professor of Law at George Mason University. The third most conservative University in the US.

He is an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute. His research focuses on constitutional law, property law, and popular political participation. He is the author of "The Grasping Hand: Kelo v. City of New London and the Limits of Eminent Domain" (forthcoming) and "Democracy and Political Ignorance: Why Smaller Government is Smarter."

He (along with dozens of other nationally renowned Constitutional and lay law professors) blogs at Eugene Volokh's "The Volokh Conspiracy", where I read him (and others) often.

He is a former co-editor of the Supreme Court Economic Review.

You are absolutely right... something that is not expressly illegal is not illegal. That's the way our system works.

These guys are all lawyers.

The entire Democratic Party is made up of lawyers, and their entire political tactic is to govern from those not expressly illegal positions.

Laws and Court cases are incredibly nuanced and absurdly complex. We. on the other hand, tend to see things is a far more simplistic way.

That however, is not reality.

What happens then is that our simplistic views on law run up against the complexities of laws and statutes and explicit and implied powers, and when the outcome doesn't fit our vision of what the law is, even as it fits perfectly with the legal vision of what the law is, we scream about the Courts being politicized.

Obama has battalions of lawyers designing his every move to cruise along those not expressly illegal lines.
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Offline Fishrrman

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[[ Obama Dares GOP: Go Ahead, ‘Have a Vote on Whether What I’m Doing Is Legal…I Will Veto’ [ Obama: 'We've Expanded My Authorities'...] ]]

Folks, I haven't posted the image below in a while, but here's the perfect headline beneath which it should be posted.

When I used to put this up, I'd get replies that this solution was off-the-table and out-of-the-question.

Do you still believe it is?
Anyone here brave enough to admit that you've changed your mind?


Offline GourmetDan

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What happens then is that our simplistic views on law run up against the complexities of laws and statutes and explicit and implied powers, and when the outcome doesn't fit our vision of what the law is, even as it fits perfectly with the legal vision of what the law is, we scream about the Courts being politicized.

Yeah, kinda like how the complexities of the Bill of Rights have rendered it into a set of limits on citizens rather than limits on the federal government.

We so stupid...


« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 02:58:04 am by GourmetDan »
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[[ Obama Dares GOP: Go Ahead, ‘Have a Vote on Whether What I’m Doing Is Legal…I Will Veto’ [ Obama: 'We've Expanded My Authorities'...] ]]

Folks, I haven't posted the image below in a while, but here's the perfect headline beneath which it should be posted.

When I used to put this up, I'd get replies that this solution was off-the-table and out-of-the-question.

Do you still believe it is?
Anyone here brave enough to admit that you've changed your mind?



Actually several of us did that very thing on this thread earlier today.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline aligncare

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[[ Obama Dares GOP: Go Ahead, ‘Have a Vote on Whether What I’m Doing Is Legal…I Will Veto’ [ Obama: 'We've Expanded My Authorities'...] ]]

Folks, I haven't posted the image below in a while, but here's the perfect headline beneath which it should be posted.

When I used to put this up, I'd get replies that this solution was off-the-table and out-of-the-question.

Do you still believe it is?
Anyone here brave enough to admit that you've changed your mind?



I haven't changed my mind..I am in the minority here who has always wanted impeachment charges against this poser..
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