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Offline DCPatriot

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Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« on: July 27, 2015, 10:50:46 pm »
Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
Enrique Rohas



ORLANDO -- Pound for pound, pitch for pitch, Dominican Pedro Martínez has been the best Latin American pitcher of all time in Major League Baseball.

Martínez, a three-time Cy Young winner who enjoyed one of the most impressive career stretches in the history of American baseball, will enter the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown on Sunday, where he will join compatriot Juan Marichal. They are the only Hispanic pitchers who have been admitted to this exclusive baseball fraternity.

In total, 14 Hispanic players have plaques in Cooperstown, but Martínez and Marichal, Puerto Ricans Roberto Clemente and Roberto Alomar, Venezuelan Luis Aparicio, Panamanian Rod Carew and Cuban Tony Pérez are the only ones who earned their place thanks to the vote of the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA).

Puerto Rican Orlando Cepeda was inducted by the Hall of Fame's Veterans Committee; Cubans Martín Dihigo, José Méndez and Cristóbal Torriente were inducted by a Special Committee on the Negro Leagues; and three broadcasters received the Ford Frick award: Argentinian Eloy “Buck” Canel, Ecuadorian Jaime Jarrín and Cuban Rafael “Felo” Ramírez.

more at:   http://espn.go.com/blog/onenacion/post/_/id/1056/is-pedro-martinez-the-greatest-latino-pitcher-of-all-time

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bkepley

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2015, 10:54:58 pm »
Of course. 
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2015, 10:59:26 pm »

Intense.  In a zone.  Just you and the catcher's glove.    Pedro didn't need a beard to convey attitude.
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Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2015, 11:25:39 pm »
Quote
Martínez and (Juan) Marichal, Puerto Ricans Roberto Clemente and Roberto Alomar, Venezuelan Luis Aparicio, Panamanian Rod Carew and Cuban Tony Pérez are the only ones who earned their place thanks to the vote of the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA)

I saw them all play at one time or another, and in person. It is difficult, if not impossible to properly and confidently rank players in a sport of individual, positional achievement like baseball. So, I always hesitate at making definitive elections about who is or was "the greatest" in the sport.

A bunch of us guys were having this very argument, if you can call it that, at my local cigar bar/watering hole last week. And yes, we are New Englanders and Pedro naturally attracted our "props", no matter that he was sometimes a serious pain in the ass. When Petey was on, he was Lights Out like nobody's goddam business.

But when those of us who grew up in the 60's and 70's talk about Roberto Clemente, well, a certain quiet reverence instantly descends, and not merely because he died far too young, on a rescue mission in Central America. He was lightning and thunder in a uniform.
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bkepley

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 11:32:57 pm »
Quote from: andy58-in-nh on July 27, 2015, 11:25:39 pm
I saw them all play at one time or another, and in person. It is difficult, if not impossible to properly and confidently rank players in a sport of individual, positional achievement like baseball. So, I always hesitate at making definitive elections about who is or was "the greatest" in the sport.

A bunch of us guys were having this very argument, if you can call it that, at my local cigar bar/watering hole last week. And yes, we are New Englanders and Pedro naturally attracted our "props", no matter that he was sometimes a serious pain in the ass. When Petey was on, he was Lights Out like nobody's goddam business.

But when those of us who grew up in the 60's and 70's talk about Roberto Clemente, well, a certain quiet reverence instantly descends, and not merely because he died far too young, on a rescue mission in Central America. He was lightning and thunder in a uniform.

What does Clemente have to do with it?  He was not a pitcher.  The only question is was is Pedro the greatest pitcher ever and my opinion is no, Kofax is still the best.
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Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 11:48:38 pm »
Quote from: bkepley on July 27, 2015, 11:32:57 pm
What does Clemente have to do with it?  He was not a pitcher.  The only question is was is Pedro the greatest pitcher ever and my opinion is no, Kofax is still the best.

True, but my point was not about the best pitcher I ever saw, but who was the best, categorically.

As it happens, I saw Sandy Koufax pitch back in 1964, at the first baseball game I ever attended, Dodgers vs. Mets, when we were visiting NY to attend the World's Fair and my dad took me to the game on July 30th, 51 years ago this week. My dad adored him. Looking it up, I find that Koufax ended the season at 19-5 with a 1.74 ERA. Not quite as amazing as Bob Gibson's season in '68, but when you're a 6 year-old kid eating hot dogs in the open air with your old man in a cacophonous, cavernous stadium filled with what seemed like a million people for the first time, you don't forget it, ever.   
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"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

bkepley

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 11:56:19 pm »
Quote from: andy58-in-nh on July 27, 2015, 11:48:38 pm
True, but my point was not about the best pitcher I ever saw, but who was the best, categorically.

As it happens, I saw Sandy Koufax pitch back in 1964, at the first baseball game I ever attended, Dodgers vs. Mets, when we were visiting NY to attend the World's Fair and my dad took me to the game on July 30th, 51 years ago this week. My dad adored him. Looking it up, I find that Koufax ended the season at 19-5 with a 1.74 ERA. Not quite as amazing as Bob Gibson's season in '68, but when you're a 6 year-old kid eating hot dogs in the open air with your old man in a cacophonous, cavernous stadium filled with what seemed like a million people for the first time, you don't forget it, ever.

I was at the game  when Gibson got his leg broke on a return of a fastball.  Not sure the year but he was still at his peak.  He was not as good as Kofax though or Pedro careerwise but better than any had ever been for a couple of years.
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2015, 12:07:09 am »
Quote from: bkepley on July 27, 2015, 11:32:57 pm
What does Clemente have to do with it?  He was not a pitcher.  The only question is was is Pedro the greatest pitcher ever and my opinion is no, Kofax is still the best.

What does Koufax have to do with it?  He's Jewish.  It's about Latino pitchers of all time.   :laugh:

I agree Clemente was poetry in motion.  Nothing jerky or abrupt there.  Fluid and graceful in the field.

But I still gotta go with Pedro.

Still can't figure how he'd get back door movement on that SOB.  It's same as Maddox'.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 12:07:57 am by DCPatriot »
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Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2015, 12:08:19 am »
Quote from: bkepley on July 27, 2015, 11:56:19 pm
I was at the game  when Gibson got his leg broke on a return of a fastball.  Not sure the year but he was still at his peak.  He was not as good as Kofax though or Pedro careerwise but better than any had ever been for a couple of years.

The year was 1965. And who was it who hit that pitch?

Roberto Clemente.

Cheers. :beer:
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"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

bkepley

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2015, 12:17:47 am »
Quote from: andy58-in-nh on July 28, 2015, 12:08:19 am
The year was 1965. And who was it who hit that pitch?

Roberto Clemente.

Cheers. :beer:

Yes I remember now.  Gibson got up and tried to throw a couple of times and fell down one or twice.  The superstars were not treated with such kid gloves back then.  The whole organization would go into a panick these days and he'd be strapped down and carried away.
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Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2015, 12:35:27 am »
Quote from: bkepley on July 28, 2015, 12:17:47 am
Yes I remember now.  Gibson got up and tried to throw a couple of times and fell down one or twice.  The superstars were not treated with such kid gloves back then.  The whole organization would go into a panick these days and he'd be strapped down and carried away.

America was a lot tougher and confident then. Not because we all agreed with one another, because as a free nation, we never have. We were tougher because we shared a common culture and fundamental values, and had just recently defeated at a terrific cost, the enemies of human freedom. Baseball was just a game, played by mostly poorly-compensated men who nonetheless captured our hearts and stirred our imaginations for their competitive spirit, talent and guts.
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"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

bkepley

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2015, 12:49:20 am »
Quote from: andy58-in-nh on July 28, 2015, 12:35:27 am
America was a lot tougher and confident then. Not because we all agreed with one another, because as a free nation, we never have. We were tougher because we shared a common culture and fundamental values, and had just recently defeated at a terrific cost, the enemies of human freedom. Baseball was just a game, played by mostly poorly-compensated men who nonetheless captured our hearts and stirred our imaginations for their competitive spirit, talent and guts.

Life long Cardinal fan here..eh..they're still going strong:)
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Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2015, 12:57:31 am »
Quote from: bkepley on July 28, 2015, 12:49:20 am
Life long Cardinal fan here..eh..they're still going strong:)

Well, as a Red Sox fan I suppose I can't really complain all that much (three titles in ten years), but this year is a brown-paper-bag-over-the-head kind of season. Aside from the Yankees, I can't recall a bigger payroll with a smaller return on investment.
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"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

bkepley

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2015, 01:01:05 am »
Quote from: andy58-in-nh on July 28, 2015, 12:57:31 am
Well, as a Red Sox fan I suppose I can't really complain all that much (three titles in ten years), but this year is a brown-paper-bag-over-the-head kind of season. Aside from the Yankees, I can't recall a bigger payroll with a smaller return on investment.

Not all considering the way you embarassed the Cardinals and broke the curse.
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Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2015, 01:09:14 am »
Quote from: bkepley on July 28, 2015, 01:01:05 am
Not all considering the way you embarassed the Cardinals and broke the curse.

Thanks for making me feel better. ;-)  :tongue2:
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"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2015, 01:40:46 am »
Quote from: bkepley on July 27, 2015, 11:32:57 pm
What does Clemente have to do with it?  He was not a pitcher.  The only question is was is Pedro the greatest pitcher ever and my opinion is no, Kofax is still the best.

Aw man, not again... :thud:

Yeah, I never saw anyone as good as Koufax.  Back then I attended many Dodger games at Dodger Stadium, known to those who hated the Dodgers as Chavez Ravine.  I saw him strike out the side on 9 pitches more than once, and with curves that looked like they would go over the screen.  In the '63 World Series, I listened to each game on the radio with Vin Scully and Jerry Doggett calling the plays, and afterward, the LA Times had almost every page with "We Broke Up the Yankees". 

I remember '62 when he had to go on the DL for a couple of months because of a blister on his finger as they were battling San Fran for the pennant.  Don Drysdale stepped up and offered to pitch extra games to make up for the loss.  The Giants caught them in the last game of the season, and the Bums lost the playoff series.  By then Koufax was back in the rotation but didn't do well.   Still a hell of a year.

Anyway, back to Trump...  :smokin:
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bkepley

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 01:50:41 am »
Quote from: MACVSOG68 on July 28, 2015, 01:40:46 am
Aw man, not again... :thud:

Yeah, I never saw anyone as good as Koufax.  Back then I attended many Dodger games at Dodger Stadium, known to those who hated the Dodgers as Chavez Ravine.  I saw him strike out the side on 9 pitches more than once, and with curves that looked like they would go over the screen.  In the '63 World Series, I listened to each game on the radio with Vin Scully and Jerry Doggett calling the plays, and afterward, the LA Times had almost every page with "We Broke Up the Yankees". 

I remember '62 when he had to go on the DL for a couple of months because of a blister on his finger as they were battling San Fran for the pennant.  Don Drysdale stepped up and offered to pitch extra games to make up for the loss.  The Giants caught them in the last game of the season, and the Bums lost the playoff series.  By then Koufax was back in the rotation but didn't do well.   Still a hell of a year.

Anyway, back to Trump...  :smokin:

So what is your point?  Drysdale?
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2015, 01:54:06 am »
Quote from: bkepley on July 28, 2015, 12:49:20 am
Life long Cardinal fan here..eh..they're still going strong:)

You're not kidding.  Truly amazing to witness.  Lose two all-stars?  No problem.

Their hitting coach staff are worth their weight in pennant trophies.    :laugh:
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bkepley

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2015, 01:57:04 am »
Quote from: DCPatriot on July 28, 2015, 01:54:06 am
You're not kidding.  Truly amazing to witness.  Lose two all-stars?  No problem.

Their hitting coach staff are worth their weight in pennant trophies.    :laugh:

Whatever happens the management gets three cheers.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2015, 03:06:57 am »
Quote from: bkepley on July 28, 2015, 01:50:41 am
So what is your point?  Drysdale?

That I agreed with you.  Just reminiscing about a couple of great seasons many years ago.  I frequently fail to make a point clearly.   :shrug:
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2015, 04:10:22 am »
Quote from: MACVSOG68 on July 28, 2015, 01:40:46 am

Yeah, I never saw anyone as good as Koufax. 

I cannot think of any pitcher, who totally dominates hitters quite like Koufax did at his best.

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Offline flowers

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2015, 04:39:58 pm »
Quote from: DCPatriot on July 27, 2015, 10:50:46 pm
Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
Enrique Rohas



ORLANDO -- Pound for pound, pitch for pitch, Dominican Pedro Martínez has been the best Latin American pitcher of all time in Major League Baseball.

Martínez, a three-time Cy Young winner who enjoyed one of the most impressive career stretches in the history of American baseball, will enter the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown on Sunday, where he will join compatriot Juan Marichal. They are the only Hispanic pitchers who have been admitted to this exclusive baseball fraternity.

In total, 14 Hispanic players have plaques in Cooperstown, but Martínez and Marichal, Puerto Ricans Roberto Clemente and Roberto Alomar, Venezuelan Luis Aparicio, Panamanian Rod Carew and Cuban Tony Pérez are the only ones who earned their place thanks to the vote of the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA).

Puerto Rican Orlando Cepeda was inducted by the Hall of Fame's Veterans Committee; Cubans Martín Dihigo, José Méndez and Cristóbal Torriente were inducted by a Special Committee on the Negro Leagues; and three broadcasters received the Ford Frick award: Argentinian Eloy “Buck” Canel, Ecuadorian Jaime Jarrín and Cuban Rafael “Felo” Ramírez.

more at:   http://espn.go.com/blog/onenacion/post/_/id/1056/is-pedro-martinez-the-greatest-latino-pitcher-of-all-time

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Yes....he is right up there with the best....period. Used to LOVE to watch him pitch.
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2015, 08:58:49 pm »
What competition does he have for the title? Most pitchers are non-Hispanic whites, and a few Japanese. So he's the best of a very narrow demographic. Big flippin' deal.
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Offline EdinVA

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2015, 09:19:22 pm »
Not having a dog in this fight, why is it he has to be a Latino pitcher, why can't he just be a great pitcher?
I thought we were all about equality..
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bkepley

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Re: Is Pedro Martinez the greatest Latino pitcher of all time?
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2015, 10:17:36 pm »
Quote from: EdinVA on July 28, 2015, 09:19:22 pm
Not having a dog in this fight, why is it he has to be a Latino pitcher, why can't he just be a great pitcher?
I thought we were all about equality..

That's what I said.  There's no question he's the best Latino the only question is was he the best period and it's a close call.  There are good arguments he was.
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