Le Pen presses France to condemn 'Islamists'

[Bigun]

How many of those 1500 years do you think we, our ancestors and Christianity have been part of the modern and civilized world as we know it today?

Only about 1500 or so! If not entirely there at least progressing toward it!

[Scottftlc]

The evidence that Islam will evolve is overwhelmed by the evidence that, if anything, it is taking many steps backwards.  Even 40 years ago, Islam was far more advanced and integrated into the "modern" world than it is today - under autocratic rulers indeed (Sadat, Pahlavi, etc), but those autocrats were far more willing to accept advancement and integration than the current crop of true adherents.  You may believe it to be true, but the overwhelming evidence strongly suggests the opposite is occuring within Islam.

[Bigun]

The evidence that Islam will evolve is overwhelmed by the evidence that, if anything, it is taking many steps backwards.  Even 40 years ago, Islam was far more advanced and integrated into the "modern" world than it is today - under autocratic rulers indeed (Sadat, Pahlavi, etc), but those autocrats were far more willing to accept advancement and integration than the current crop of true adherents.  You may believe it to be true, but the overwhelming evidence strongly suggests the opposite is occuring within Islam.

Yep! Until Jimmih CAAATA  decided to destroy that!

[musiclady]

Whatever you think it is that Allah has instructed them to do, many Muslims don't agree with it, and that number is rising. Did you know that in Saudi Arabia women are slowly starting to gain rights? Did you know that lots of young Muslims living in the United States and Europe are fighting for things to change over there? Progress is being made in that region but your preconceived notions will never allow you to see it.

 

My 'preconceived notions'............ oy.  (Elitism 101 on display).

Obviously progress has been made in the Middle East before, but it has been squelched by those who are more faithful to the teachings of the Koran.   They may fight to change things, but they may also end up headless, as other Muslims follow what the Koran tells them to do.

Were those Allah's instructions or the deliberate misinterpretations of extremists that were going to do what they wanted and find justifications for it either way?

Let's say that 10% of Muslims are followers of the strict interpretation of the Koran.  (That's a conservative estimate).  How many people is that?  And would you call ALL of them 'extremists' if there is that significant a percentage who believe it, or at least condone it, even if they wouldn't do it?

As for "deliberate misinterpretations"........ on what evidence do you conclude that what this large number of Muslims believe is 'deliberately misinterpreting" the Koran?  Do you think they don't believe in what they're doing?  Do you think they strap suicide vests on and kill themselves, or fly jet planes full of innocent victims into buildings based on a "deliberate misinterpretation?"  Slow down and think about that for a bit.  Does that make ANY sense, in ANY world, that the perpetrators of mass violence are doing what they're doing KNOWING that it's based on a falsehood?

In what universe does that happen, Dex?
 

I believe it will evolve, and that the Middle East will eventually join the rest of us as part of the civilized world.

Well, I'm glad you believe it, but your belief is not based on either history, nor the reality of the situation.  (This is where I resist saying where your Utopian view of the universe comes from.....  ^-^ )

[Dexter]

Only about 1500 or so! If not entirely there at least progressing toward it!

That's nonsense and I think you know it. The modern and civilized world as we know it is still in its infancy. Even just 500 years ago innocent people were being burned alive accused of being witches.

[musiclady]

The evidence that Islam will evolve is overwhelmed by the evidence that, if anything, it is taking many steps backwards.  Even 40 years ago, Islam was far more advanced and integrated into the "modern" world than it is today - under autocratic rulers indeed (Sadat, Pahlavi, etc), but those autocrats were far more willing to accept advancement and integration than the current crop of true adherents.  You may believe it to be true, but the overwhelming evidence strongly suggests the opposite is occuring within Islam.

Exactly.

As the adherents to Islam become less and less secularized, it continues to plummet backwards.

As you said, the overwhelming evidence is that rather than 'evolving' the Middle East is devolving, the closer it gets to the actual teachings of Mohammed.

[musiclady]

That's nonsense and I think you know it. The modern and civilized world as we know it is still in its infancy. Even just 500 years ago innocent people were being burned alive accused of being witches.

This is where your "Islam is just Christianity 500 years later" argument comes into play............ and FAILS.

The Christianity that Christ taught, and that the early Church lived was far more 'advanced' in its treatment of and respect for others than it was once politics got mixed it.  If you go back to the early centuries in Christianity, you will find more 'civilization' than you will find in many countries today...... even the ones you consider to be 'civilized.'

The entire premise of your argument is flawed based on your 'pre-conceived notions.'

[Bigun]

That's nonsense and I think you know it. The modern and civilized world as we know it is still in its infancy. Even just 500 years ago innocent people were being burned alive accused of being witches.

Did you even read what I wrote?

Do you understand what I wrote?

Islam is stuck in the 6th century! WE are not!

[Dexter]

Obviously progress has been made in the Middle East before, but it has been squelched by those who are more faithful to the teachings of the Koran.   They may fight to change things, but they may also end up headless, as other Muslims follow what the Koran tells them to do.

If progress has been made then progress can and will be made again. As time goes by humanity has its ups and downs, but over the course of history the trend has been upward. That will not change, and it includes the Middle East. Do you think 600 years from now when we are colonizing other planets and have access to technology we can't even imagine the Middle East will remain unchanged? You might believe that, but I don't.

Let's say that 10% of Muslims are followers of the strict interpretation of the Koran.  (That's a conservative estimate).  How many people is that?  And would you call ALL of them 'extremists' if there is that significant a percentage who believe it, or at least condone it, even if they wouldn't do it?

The Middle East and its people still have a long road ahead of them, as I have said before, but once again I must say that I believe reason will ultimately prevail. Advances in technology and especially education will open a lot of eyes.

As for "deliberate misinterpretations"........ on what evidence do you conclude that what this large number of Muslims believe is 'deliberately misinterpreting" the Koran?  Do you think they don't believe in what they're doing?  Do you think they strap suicide vests on and kill themselves, or fly jet planes full of innocent victims into buildings based on a "deliberate misinterpretation?"  Slow down and think about that for a bit.  Does that make ANY sense, in ANY world, that the perpetrators of mass violence are doing what they're doing KNOWING that it's based on a falsehood?

Religion in this instance is being used as a tool. I'm sure a lot of them do believe it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't deliberately misinterpreted to fit an agenda and take advantage of desperate people.

[Dexter]

This is where your "Islam is just Christianity 500 years later" argument comes into play............ and FAILS.

The Christianity that Christ taught, and that the early Church lived was far more 'advanced' in its treatment of and respect for others than it was once politics got mixed it.  If you go back to the early centuries in Christianity, you will find more 'civilization' than you will find in many countries today...... even the ones you consider to be 'civilized.'

The entire premise of your argument is flawed based on your 'pre-conceived notions.'

Muhammad instructed his people to coexist with Christians peacefully.

[Bigun]

Mohammad instructed his people to coexist with Christians peacefully.

Yeah! Right!!!

As usual YOU don't have a clue about what you are talking about!

[musiclady]

If progress has been made then progress can and will be made again. As time goes by humanity has its ups and downs, but over the course of history the trend has been upward. That will not change, and it includes the Middle East. Do you think 600 years from now when we are colonizing other planets and have access to technology we can't even imagine the Middle East will remain unchanged? You might believe that, but I don't.

As has been pointed out above, the "progress" in most ME countries was made by secular dictators who wanted to compete in a 20th century economy.  Once that control is removed, the ME returns to its pre-medieval state, and will always do so because the Koran dictates it.

The Middle East and its people still have a long road ahead of them, as I have said before, but once again I must say that I believe reason will ultimately prevail. Advances in technology and especially education will open a lot of eyes.

I, unlike a few others on this forum, don't have any problem with individual Muslims.  They can be good people, or bad people.  And westernized, educated Muslims can be very fine individuals.  That said, the problem is with their religion.  It is with Mohammed.  Most Muslims haven't got a clue as to who Mohammed was and how violent the beginnings of their "religion" was.

And you are forgetting that education has taken place in the ME.  Look at Jordan.  Look at Turkey.  Look at earlier Afghanistan.  They DID progress earlier, and many were educated,  but now are regressing into oblivion because of their "religion."

Religion in this instance is being used as a tool. I'm sure a lot of them do believe it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't deliberately misinterpreted to fit an agenda and take advantage of desperate people.

That still doesn't answer my question as to what EVIDENCE you have that it is being "deliberately misinterpreted" and not a legitimate interpretation of what the words in the Koran actually say.

What proof do you have of that position?  Any?  Or just wishful thinking?

[musiclady]

Mohammad instructed his people to coexist with Christians peacefully.

Please cite proof of that.

I'm sure there are many here who can cite proof to the contrary (because it's not true), but I'm interested in where you got that idea.

[Dexter]

Please cite proof of that.

I'm sure there are many here who can cite proof to the contrary (because it's not true), but I'm interested in where you got that idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad


    Muhammad the son of ‘Abd Allah, the Messenger of Allah, and careful guardian of the whole world; has wrote the present instrument to all those who are in his national people, and of his own religion, as a secure and positive promise to be accomplished to the Christian nation, and relations of the Nazarene, whosoever they may be, whether they be the noble or the vulgar, the honorable or otherwise, saying thus.I. Whosoever of my nation shall presume to break my promise and oath, which is contained in this present agreement, destroys the promise of God, acts contrary to the oath, and will be a resister of the faith, (which God forbid) for he becomes worthy of the curse, whether he be the King himself, or a poor man, or whatever person he may be.
    That whenever any of the monks in his travels shall happen to settle upon any mountain, hill, village, or other habitable place, on the sea, or in deserts, or in any convent, church, or house of prayer, I shall be in the midst of them, as the preserver and protector of them, their goods and effects, with my soul, aid, and protection, jointly with all my national people; because they are a part of my own people, and an honor to me.
    Moreover, I command all officers not to require any poll-tax on them, or any other tribute, because they shall not be forced or compelled to anything of this kind.
    None shall presume to change their judges or governors, but they shall remain in their office, without being deported.
    No one shall molest them when they are travelling on the road.
    Whatever churches they are possessed of, no one is to deprive them of them.
    Whosoever shall annul any of one of these my decrees, let him know positively that he annuls the ordinance of God.
    Moreover, neither their judges, governors, monks, servants, disciples, or any others depending on them, shall pay any poll-tax, or be molested on that account, because I am their protector, wherever they shall be, either by land or sea, east or west, north or south; because both they and all that belong to them are included in this my promissory oath and patent.
    And of those that live quietly and solitary upon the mountains, they shall exact neither poll-tax nor tithes from their incomes, neither shall any Muslim partake of what they have; for they labor only to maintain themselves.
    Whenever the crop of the earth shall be plentiful in its due time, the inhabitants shall be obliged out of every bushel to give them a certain measure.
    Neither in time of war shall they take them out of their habitations, nor compel them to go to the wars, nor even then shall they require of them any poll-tax.
    In these eleven chapters is to be found whatever relates to the monks, as to the remaining seven chapters, they direct what relates to every Christian.
    Those Christians who are inhabitants, and with their riches and traffic are able to pay the poll-tax, shall pay no more than twelve drachms.
    Excepting this, nothing shall be required of them, according to the express order of God, that says, ‘Do not molest those that have a veneration for the books that are sent from God, but rather in a kind manner give of your good things to them, and converse with them, and hinder everyone from molesting them’ [29:46].
    If a Christian woman shall happen to marry a Muslim man, the Muslim shall not cross the inclination of his wife, to keep her from her church and prayers, and the practice of her religion.
    That no person hinder them from repairing their churches.
    Whosoever acts contrary to my grant, or gives credit to anything contrary to it, becomes truly an apostate to God, and to his divine apostle, because this protection I have granted to them according to this promise.
    No one shall bear arms against them, but, on the contrary, the Muslims shall wage war for them.
    And by this I ordain, that none of my nation shall presume to do or act contrary to this my promise, until the end of the world.

[Dexter]

As has been pointed out above, the "progress" in most ME countries was made by secular dictators who wanted to compete in a 20th century economy.  Once that control is removed, the ME returns to its pre-medieval state, and will always do so because the Koran dictates it.

I completely disagree. The Middle East can and will progress towards the modern era.

I, unlike a few others on this forum, don't have any problem with individual Muslims.  They can be good people, or bad people.  And westernized, educated Muslims can be very fine individuals.  That said, the problem is with their religion.  It is with Mohammed.  Most Muslims haven't got a clue as to who Mohammed was and how violent the beginnings of their "religion" was.

If westernized Muslims can be and often are fine individuals that do not participate in or appreciate extremism then why should we assume that the Middle East can't become more advanced and achieve the same thing over there?

And you are forgetting that education has taken place in the ME.  Look at Jordan.  Look at Turkey.  Look at earlier Afghanistan.  They DID progress earlier, and many were educated,  but now are regressing into oblivion because of their "religion."

You know, I'm not going to disagree that religion is holding them back. I don't think it will prevent them from moving forward, but it is certainly not helping. The entire world is slowly moving away from all forms of religion, though, so I think it will eventually be a non-factor.

That still doesn't answer my question as to what EVIDENCE you have that it is being "deliberately misinterpreted" and not a legitimate interpretation of what the words in the Koran actually say.

What proof do you have of that position?  Any?  Or just wishful thinking?

I guess I thought the proof was the fact that the majority of Muslims interpret the words of their God and their prophet in a way that does not lead to extremism. There is plenty of talk of bloodshed and death in the Bible too, but I think using those bits to justify extremism would be a misinterpretation as well.

[musiclady]

OK.  Wiki as a source.  Here's something to counter that....

This document, the Achtiname, is of even more doubtful authenticity than everything else about Muhammad’s life. Muhammad is supposed to have died in 632; the Muslims conquered Egypt between 639 and 641. The document says of the Christians, “No one shall bear arms against them.” So were the conquerors transgressing against Muhammad’s command for, as Considine puts it, “no Muslim to fight against his Christian brother or sister”? Did Muhammad draw up this document because he foresaw the Muslim invasion of Egypt? There is no mention of this document in any remotely contemporary Islamic sources; among other anomalies, it bears a drawing of a mosque with a minaret, although minarets weren’t put on mosques until long after the time Muhammad is supposed to have lived, which is why Muslim hardliners consider them unacceptable innovation (bid’a).

The document exempts the monks of St. Catherine’s monastery from paying the jizya. While it is conceivable that Muhammad, believing he bore the authority of Allah, would exempt them from an obligation specified by Allah himself in the Qur’an (9:29), the Achtiname specifies that Christians of Egypt are to pay a jizya only of twelve drachmas. Yet according to the seventh-century Coptic bishop John of Nikiou, Christians in Egypt “came to the point of offering their children in exchange for the enormous sums that they had to pay each month.” The Achtiname, in short, bears all the earmarks of being an early medieval Christian forgery, perhaps developed by the monks themselves in order to protect the monastery and Egyptian Christians from the depredations of zealous Muslims.

Food for thought.

[Dexter]

OK.  Wiki as a source.  Here's something to counter that....

Food for thought.

Can I get the source of that text? Also, if there isn't good evidence to say anything for sure about his life, then the same must go for your own assertions, no?

[musiclady]

I completely disagree. The Middle East can and will progress towards the modern era.

Except that's not what's happening.

If westernized Muslims can be and often are fine individuals that do not participate in or appreciate extremism then why should we assume that the Middle East can't become more advanced and achieve the same thing over there?

 

The answer to that is quite simple.  Westernized Muslims have been influenced by Christianity.  Those in the ME have not.  When the countries of the ME allow freedom of religion, then there might be hope.  But since that's not ever going to happen, there's not much reason to hope, is there?

You know, I'm not going to disagree that religion is holding them back. I don't think it will prevent them from moving forward, but it is certainly not helping. The entire world is slowly moving away from all forms of religion, though, so I think it will eventually be a non-factor.

I'm not going to get into a theological discussion here, but the problem is not 'religion'..... it is Islam.  And I will say that if you know 'the rest of the story,' your argument that religion is going to be a non-factor in the future is, at best, faulty.

I guess I thought the proof was the fact that the majority of Muslims interpret the words of their God and their prophet in a way that does not lead to extremism. There is plenty of talk of bloodshed and death in the Bible too, but I think using those bits to justify extremism would be a misinterpretation as well.

The majority of Muslims interpret the words of "their God and their prophet" perhaps not to commit violence, but definitely to tacitly condone it.  That is evidenced in the paucity of Imams' voices standing up against the violent.  They are as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth.

Whether it is fear of death or persecution, lack of courage, or silent agreement, the larger world of Islam is nearly silent.

As for the bloodshed in the Bible.  It's historical documentation of what occurred, and not a command for what Christians should do to people of other faiths.  The clear commands to love one another in Scripture overwhelm the statements about violence (all as a result of human sin).

And in Islam, there are many words to describe Allah............. but not one of them is Love.

[musiclady]

Can I get the source of that text? Also, if there isn't good evidence to say anything for sure about his life, then the same must go for your own assertions, no?

Here.... http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/01/huffington-post-muhammads-beliefs-on-how-to-treat-religious-minorities-make-him-a-universal-champion-of-human-rights

First reference I looked at.

If you want to go into the documentation of Mohammed relative to the documentation about the birth, life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, I'll be glad to give you some sources.

That is, if you're interested in the factual comparison......

Mohammed (the 'good' one Muslims believe in) is largely fabrication.  Just an FYI.

[truth_seeker]

That's nonsense and I think you know it. The modern and civilized world as we know it is still in its infancy. Even just 500 years ago innocent people were being burned alive accused of being witches.

It was closer to 350 years ago that Christians burned the witches, in both Europe and in the American colonies.

Just over 500 years ago, in Spain, France and Italy, Catholics stretched the Jews (and Protectants) on the racks.

Only 150 years ago, the Southern Baptist faith supported slavery, and later segregation.

So Christianity has evolved, and fairly recently, too. In fact Christianity has evolved to the point where some denominations support the death penalty, and others oppose it.

 

[Dexter]

Except that's not what's happening.

Not yet, and it certainly won't if we start leveling their cities.

The answer to that is quite simple.  Westernized Muslims have been influenced by Christianity.  Those in the ME have not.  When the countries of the ME allow freedom of religion, then there might be hope.  But since that's not ever going to happen, there's not much reason to hope, is there?

I completely disagree, but I will play along anyway. There are a lot of Christians in the Middle East. If Christian influence is the limiting factor then your argument doesn't make sense, or does Christianity need to be the majority religion for Muslims to be properly influenced into being good people?

I'm not going to get into a theological discussion here, but the problem is not 'religion'

Just their religion, right?

The majority of Muslims interpret the words of "their God and their prophet" perhaps not to commit violence, but definitely to tacitly condone it.  That is evidenced in the paucity of Imams' voices standing up against the violent.  They are as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth.

Whether it is fear of death or persecution, lack of courage, or silent agreement, the larger world of Islam is nearly silent.

As for the bloodshed in the Bible.  It's historical documentation of what occurred, and not a command for what Christians should do to people of other faiths.  The clear commands to love one another in Scripture overwhelm the statements about violence (all as a result of human sin).

And in Islam, there are many words to describe Allah............. but not one of them is Love.

I think you greatly underestimate how many Muslims don't agree with the extremists, and especially underestimate how quickly that number is growing.

[Carling]

The evidence that Islam will evolve is overwhelmed by the evidence that, if anything, it is taking many steps backwards.  Even 40 years ago, Islam was far more advanced and integrated into the "modern" world than it is today - under autocratic rulers indeed (Sadat, Pahlavi, etc), but those autocrats were far more willing to accept advancement and integration than the current crop of true adherents.  You may believe it to be true, but the overwhelming evidence strongly suggests the opposite is occuring within Islam.

This is a great post.  I'll even point out that Egypt was very modern (and as secular as a Muslim nation could be) under Mubarak.  Then our Muslim president (and yes, I'm convinced he's not only Muslim, but an Islamist) decided that we should help oust Mubarak, and a few years later, Coptic Christians have been slaughtered, Egyptian secular society has been marginalized, and the Egyptian military actually had to restore some semblance of order by taking power away from the Muslim Brotherhood. 

It's a classic modernist religious dichotomy.  Christians are largely becoming more accepting of those who don't practice their faith, or live under their moral code, while Islam is lashing out at any and all who won't yield to their own religious beliefs.   I don't see how a chasm that deep can be reconciled without massive amounts of conflict.

[Dexter]

Here.... http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/01/huffington-post-muhammads-beliefs-on-how-to-treat-religious-minorities-make-him-a-universal-champion-of-human-rights

First reference I looked at.

If you want to go into the documentation of Mohammed relative to the documentation about the birth, life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, I'll be glad to give you some sources.

That is, if you're interested in the factual comparison......

Mohammed (the 'good' one Muslims believe in) is largely fabrication.  Just an FYI.

I'm surprised you would criticize me for using Wikipedia and then follow up with a response from Jihadwatch.org.

EDIT: I think you might have misunderstood part of my post. I was saying that if what we actually know about him is that vague, then what you believe about Muhammad must involve questionable history as well.

[Dexter]

It was closer to 350 years ago that Christians burned the witches, in both Europe and in the American colonies.

Just over 500 years ago, in Spain, France and Italy, Catholics stretched the Jews (and Protectants) on the racks.

Only 150 years ago, the Southern Baptist faith supported slavery, and later segregation.

So Christianity has evolved, and fairly recently, too. In fact Christianity has evolved to the point where some denominations support the death penalty, and others oppose it.

Good post and thank you.

[musiclady]

Not yet, and it certainly won't if we start leveling their cities.

I never suggested leveling their cities.

I completely disagree, but I will play along anyway. There are a lot of Christians in the Middle East. If Christian influence is the limiting factor then your argument doesn't make sense, or does Christianity need to be the majority religion for Muslims to be properly influenced into being good people?

There are a lot of Christians in the Middle East?  (I'm playing along).  Where?  Obviously there are SOME because they were there first.  There are Palestinian Christians, but they don't exactly have influence on the system, do they?  There were a number of Christians in Iraq until ISSA wiped them out (good ol' Islam!)

What the influence needs to be is that the tenets of Christ's teachings are felt in the country as a whole.  That obviously can't be quantified.  But as long as you get punished for carrying a Bible, that's not likely to be happening soon.

Interestingly, the Church itself can be very strong in oppressive countries.  It is in China, though Christians meet underground.  They, however, have no influence in the way the system runs.  As they do not in the ME.

I disagree.

Of course you do.  You think religion is the problem here too.

I think you greatly underestimate how many Muslims don't agree with the extremists, and especially underestimate how quickly that number is growing.

It's not a matter of what I estimate or underestimate.  Where are there voices?  Where are the Imams marching in the streets against this violence?  The only thing we see is marching against "Islamophobia" and backlash when the Islamist perpetrate unspeakable violence against the innocent.

The idea that things are getting better is, IMO, pie in the sky.