Author Topic: Top Five Causes of the Civil War  (Read 13136 times)

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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2014, 11:20:38 pm »
So you say! 

I don;t think that is correct!

You are one 'pit-bull', Bigun!   :laugh:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2014, 11:21:58 pm »
I didn't say they were right.  I am merely pointing out it is historically inaccurate to assume that people held the same view on secession that we hold today.  Jefferson wrote at length on the subject and it was discussed many times in many different contexts between the founding and the Civil War.  It would be wrong to suggest that everyone who formed the original confederation was under the impression it could not be dissolved, or individual states could not opt out.  Here is an interesting article on the subject from Walter Williams.

http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/04/do-states-have-a-right-of-secession/

With all due respect to Walter Williams who's commentaries I enjoy, he's cherry-picking to make his point.  Thomas Jefferson, who was not a delegate said what he believed as a Virginian and he certainly wasn't by himself.  Williams quotes James Madison which is a surprise given Madison's absolute opposition to secession outside of the means established within the Constitution.  Even some quoted by Williams as favoring secession were actually opposed to violence as a means of settling the question.  He again cherry-picks the NY Tribune as Greeley was opposed to a war and wanted a peaceful settlement of the question, though later turned his paper into a proponent of Radical Republican ideas on war with the South.  He seems to ignore the many voices speaking out against secession while concluding that the 9th and 10th Amendments meant the framers wanted the states to have the right of secession.

Even the handful of Federalists who proposed secession after Jefferson's election knew it wasn't going anywhere as it simply wasn't a popular notion. 

But I do agree, in spite of the logic of moving from a perpetual confederation to a more perfect union, and providing the means to change the Constitution, everyone didn't agree.  But then, there was nothing in that convention and subsequent ratification debates that everyone agreed to. 

Even the majority opinion in Texas v White concluded there was a proper means of achieving a dissolution, and Texas did not meet that standard.  But the debate continues, and like a few other constitutional issues will always have two sides.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2014, 11:23:52 pm »
You are one 'pit-bull', Bigun!   :laugh:

Thanks DC! I'll take that as a compliment!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2014, 11:25:49 pm »
Thanks DC! I'll take that as a compliment!

 :beer:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2014, 11:27:15 pm »
I am not worthy on this thread!  You guys are great.
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2014, 11:29:05 pm »
I am not worthy on this thread!  You guys are great.

Exactly....learned a lot just lurking and reading the back and forth.

We've got some amazing people here!   :laugh:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Bigun

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2014, 11:29:51 pm »
I am not worthy on this thread!  You guys are great.

 :beer:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2014, 11:44:17 pm »
I am not worthy on this thread!  You guys are great.

Hey wait a minute...you started it!

Here's to all the participants*   :beer:



*even if you're all full of beans!  :laugh:
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2014, 11:49:43 pm »
Hey wait a minute...you started it!



Oooops...

I may jump in... just to provide the correct answers...
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2014, 11:57:28 pm »
Oooops...

I may jump in... just to provide the correct answers...

Thank goodness!  But give me the answers before the test next time... :whistle:
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2014, 11:58:39 pm »
Hey wait a minute...you started it!

Here's to all the participants*   :beer:



*even if you're all full of beans!  :laugh:

I'll second that! And all with resorting to fisticuffs!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2014, 11:01:20 am »
Guys - I started to compose a post getting back to the "cause(s)" of the Civil War.  Because of too many starts and stops, I failed.  Carry-on.   :patriot:
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2014, 11:46:34 am »
Guys - I started to compose a post getting back to the "cause(s)" of the Civil War.  Because of too many starts and stops, I failed.  Carry-on.   :patriot:

I guess we did sorta get away from the causes and on to the legality of secession.  My bad.  The devil made me do it.    :shrug:
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2014, 12:00:36 pm »
I guess we did sorta get away from the causes and on to the legality of secession.  My bad.  The devil made me do it.    :shrug:

Oh man... I wasn't admonishing you or anyone. You guys have been terrific. I just can't find time to complete a sentence, let alone a complete thought.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2014, 12:08:45 pm »
Oh man... I wasn't admonishing you or anyone. You guys have been terrific. I just can't find time to complete a sentence, let alone a complete thought.

We're nothing if not patient.  Get writing NOW Mister!   *look*

just kiddin'
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2014, 12:09:38 pm »
Maybe I'm dense but I've always seen the attempted dissolution of the Union and the Confederacy's creation of a second nation on US soil as a major cause of the war.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2014, 12:23:59 pm »
Maybe I'm dense but I've always seen the attempted dissolution of the Union and the Confederacy's creation of a second nation on US soil as a major cause of the war.

That's what the Jesuits taught me, anyway!   :laugh:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2014, 12:28:54 pm »
Maybe I'm dense but I've always seen the attempted dissolution of the Union and the Confederacy's creation of a second nation on US soil as a major cause of the war.

Well yeah, though it was really the attack on federal government property that was the proximate cause.  However, the real debate has always been what led to the attempted dissolution.  The secession had become reality four months before hostilities began. 
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2014, 01:12:40 pm »
Well yeah, though it was really the attack on federal government property that was the proximate cause.  However, the real debate has always been what led to the attempted dissolution.  The secession had become reality four months before hostilities began.

That is generally true and we could argue over the Ft. Sumter incident all day long as well but I'm not in the arguing mood today! :laugh:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2014, 01:30:04 pm »
That is generally true and we could argue over the Ft. Sumter incident all day long as well but I'm not in the arguing mood today! :laugh:

May I suggest you see a doctor right away?   :laugh:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2014, 01:44:11 pm »
That is generally true and we could argue over the Ft. Sumter incident all day long as well but I'm not in the arguing mood today! :laugh:

Yeah, I'm kinda busy looking for an alternative to Microsoft Outlook.
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #96 on: November 01, 2014, 06:15:41 pm »
The American Civil War: Every Day


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBr3QeVPv2M#t=299
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #97 on: November 01, 2014, 06:36:40 pm »
The American Civil War: Every Day


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBr3QeVPv2M#t=299

Thanks Lando.  Really interesting to see so many volumes condensed into a visual like that.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #98 on: November 01, 2014, 07:10:50 pm »
The American Civil War: Every Day

That's one of the most fascinating things I've EVER seen!

THANKS, Lando!

(As a Yankee and an Ohioan, I particularly enjoyed the U.S. Grant part.  ^-^)

Edited to add........ no offense to my wonderful southern patriot friends here!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 07:11:38 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
« Reply #99 on: November 01, 2014, 07:57:49 pm »
At this point in time in the history of these United States, perhaps we should begin settling on the top five causes for the upcoming Civil War.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx