Author Topic: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving  (Read 20043 times)

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #275 on: October 14, 2014, 12:11:02 am »
Your sense is right.  There are many non-religious people who instinctively understand that something is awry in a homosexual relationship.  I believe to place the onus on "religion" is to miss the complexity of social mores that transcend religious beliefs.

FWIW, I'm one of the only people on this thread who is arguing essentially, but not entirely with GD, and he is, to my knowledge, the only one on this forum who finds me so offensive that he has put me on "Ignore."

Weird, eh?

Hmmm......well, the best way to not give your spouse a sexually transmitted disease, is to not cheat on them.  in fact, it's the only SURE way to which I'm aware.

I believe that's where the position statement is framed.  Monogamy cancels out risk.
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Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #276 on: October 14, 2014, 12:14:04 am »
Your sense is right.  There are many non-religious people who instinctively understand that something is awry in a homosexual relationship.  I believe to place the onus on "religion" is to miss the complexity of social mores that transcend religious beliefs.

FWIW, I'm one of the only people on this thread who is arguing essentially, but not entirely with GD, and he is, to my knowledge, the only one on this forum who finds me so offensive that he has put me on "Ignore."

Weird, eh?

I hardly had a chance to make ANY argument.  Most people would not be able to state - with certainty - my position on this narrow topic.  (No, I won't iterate it now.)

You would never be on my "Ignore" list musiclady!
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
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Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #277 on: October 14, 2014, 12:42:50 am »
Your words Dan:

...you haven't seen anything.
Or perhaps I am speaking from experience and an informed viewpoint.
I saw it happen.
As I said, I saw it happen...
It is not reality.  I saw reality.
No, I saw reality.
The reality I saw was confirmed and testified to by the people I was helping as being reality, and much more.
...you guys don't have any experience with the issue

Dan, surely you can see why we were curious.  While perhaps not an "expert", you inferred a unique experience.  We asked you to share.  You chose not to.  And... I have let it go.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 12:10:19 pm by Lando Lincoln »
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Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #278 on: October 14, 2014, 01:31:09 am »
I do not believe that I have ever once commented on homosexuals or issues of homosexuality on this site.

I have avoided these threads for a long time.

No, I'm not gay. I have a wife and family, and I'm about the most determinedly heterosexual guy you'll ever meet. Men are friends. Women are something more, even if I never act upon the impulse born within me. And since I met my wife 25 years ago, I have not acted upon that impulse, however tempted I have been. And that's the truth. 

It is clear to me that people of more or less Conservative persuasion - like all of us here - are clearly very conflicted and divided over this issue, a matter that strikes at the heart of what is acceptable human behavior, what it means to be an acceptable member of society, and more profoundly, what our religious faiths in faithfulness to their tenets must in fact judge, while still discerning and respecting the essential humanity that binds us all.

And it is a recognition of our essential humanity that makes it impossible for me to despise people who behave in obeisance to the homosexual impulse, provided that they do so voluntarily and willingly.

The social problem we now face is whether the legal recognition of a relationship wherein two same-sex partners propose to enter into a legal commitment of mutual responsibility with each other, is worthy of legal protection commonly accorded to normal - yes, normal - heterosexual couples.  For it is the biology of animals, and not the law, which defines what is "normal", but not necessarily what is desirable or worthy of emulation.

For human beings, because of our unique nature, homosexuality is both a matter of biology and of choice. And because of our unique capacity for reason, comprehension, idealization and philosophic development, it becomes a matter about which we must in the course of our lives develop a normative judgment: right, wrong, or neither.

Is it abnormal? Yes. Is it wrong? That is a matter for each of us to judge, according to our values and our moral compasses, as informed by the evidence of our senses. 

But in a purely social context, the question is not one of morality, but of utility. What good (or evil) would arise from the legal recognition of homosexual unions?

And here is where dust turns to mud.

Because if one is to judge from the evidence of human history, many "gay" people seem to crave not liberty but license, not responsibility, but rather an escape from the demands of reality.

The argument most commonly adduced in favor of gay marriage is that such an arrangement would lead to "equality" - not that it would result in enhanced personal responsibility and commitment. I think that speaks volumes.

Nor do gay political organizations militate for marriage rights so that social harmony, security and familial organization might be enhanced - these being primary historical justifications for the legal recognition of traditional marriage. Instead, they seem to agitate for legal recognition for the purposes of claiming accredited victim status and political power, which would in turn lead to social discord, insecurity and familial dissolution.

There is then the matter of what constitutes a "marriage" - which is not primarily a legal matter but a religious one: two people may be joined in mutual responsibility by the state, but not necessarily in the eyes of one's God.

And so, I believe that same sex individuals, should they desire to commit to one another, ought to be recognized in civil unions - not in marriage, which is the proper province of each of our respective faiths.  But such relationships must be held to the same exact standard as unions between partners of differing sexes, lest personal commitment be a mere facade for the sanction of licentious and dishonorable personal behavior.

Let's see how that works, over time.

Look: they are our family members and friends. As such, they deserve both our love... and our judgment.
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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #279 on: October 14, 2014, 01:39:52 am »
Thank you, Andy for such a well thought out post.  Your usual contribution, btw.

To me, being recognized for inheritance and tax issues...for divorce and separation issues such as alimony, etc.....and also for a legal recognized say in end-of life issues are the main reasons for recognizing homosexual legal unions. 

I agree, that it doesn't have to be called a "marriage", but rather a legally recognized civil union with all the same protections as married couples.

Where I go off the rails is when somebody argues from a purely religious POV as the final say in justifying condemnation.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #280 on: October 14, 2014, 02:17:50 am »
I hardly had a chance to make ANY argument.  Most people would not be able to state - with certainty - my position on this narrow topic.  (No, I won't iterate it now.)

You would never be on my "Ignore" list musiclady!

No need to iterate, Lando.  I respect you no matter whether I agree with you or not, because you are a thoughtful man, and this country could use more men (and women) just like you.


(Oh........and thanks for not putting me on "ignore."  It's almost funny that anyone feels that way about me, but GD is, if nothing else, an enigma.  I do think I'm pretty innocuous............at least MOST of the time.  :whistle: )
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #281 on: October 14, 2014, 02:41:28 am »
So along the lines of our 1st amendment, why does religious consideration come into argument for or against gay marriage, at all?

I don't want the Catholics, or muslims, or born-again dictating our nation's laws.

That is really where Pastor Huckabee is coming from. If the GOP won't help him have his faith dictate the nation's laws, he has no use for the party.

Huckabee's faith was once a supporter of slavery America. As a school child I was pissed the schools catered to the Catholic students and served us fish on Fridays.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #282 on: October 14, 2014, 04:56:09 am »
Never claimed to be an 'expert', Luis.  People who don't want to accept the truth are applying that label for obvious reasons.

Let's see, I've been threatened, shouted at and an attempt was made to reveal personal information and I'm borderline hysteric?  Just say anything you want, Luis.  The truth doesn't matter.

All you are doing is arguing that if you can find the smallest exception that invalidates the general rule.  You would have to give me the same argument and that would destroy yours.
 
Again, Luis.  The 'expert' label was applied by those who are looking for an exception so that they can ignore the general rule.

Arguing that your 'gay friends' lifestyle differs very little from your straight experience cannot be validated either and depends on the promiscuity in your straight lifestyle.  While claiming not to be an 'expert', you manage to give what you consider to be a definitive opinion.

How are you doing anything different than what I was doing?

That could simply be a very sad commentary on their heterosexual counterparts, nothing more...

There is no "general rule" Dan.

What you are basing your argument on is an animus towards gays.

That could simply be a very sad commentary on their heterosexual counterparts, nothing more...

The sad thing here Dan, is you.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #283 on: October 14, 2014, 05:24:11 am »

And so, I believe that same sex individuals, should they desire to commit to one another, ought to be recognized in civil unions - not in marriage, which is the proper province of each of our respective faiths.  But such relationships must be held to the same exact standard as unions between partners of differing sexes, lest personal commitment be a mere facade for the sanction of licentious and dishonorable personal behavior.


And there lies the rub.

It was none other than Martin Luther during the Reformulation that gave marriage its initial push down the slippery slope that it finds itself sliding down today.

Quote
“Marriage is a civic matter. It is really not, together with all its circumstances, the business of the church.” - Martin Luther

It was Martin Luther who took what was God's and gave it to Government. It was Luther who argued that marriage was not a Sacrament at all.

Quote
"Not only is marriage regarded as a sacrament without the least warrant of Scripture, but the very ordinances which extol it as a sacrament have turned it into a farce." - Martin Luther

In light of that, I find it highly amusing that (generally speaking) it's Protestants that lead the charge against same-sex divorce by citing Scripture.

It was Luther who argued that marriage was a legal, not religious matter.

Quote
“No one can deny that marriage is an external, worldly, matter, like clothing and food, house and property, subject to temporal authority, as the many imperial laws enacted on the subject prove.” - Martin Luther

Luther took God out of marriage and handed the whole thing over to The State, and here we are. And it will be the State that will redefine marriage once again naturally defaulting to inclusion rather than exclusion.

If you don't see it happening already, it's only because you don't want to see it.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 11:34:00 am by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #284 on: October 14, 2014, 05:32:26 am »
Thank you, Andy for such a well thought out post.  Your usual contribution, btw.

To me, being recognized for inheritance and tax issues...for divorce and separation issues such as alimony, etc.....and also for a legal recognized say in end-of life issues are the main reasons for recognizing homosexual legal unions. 

I agree, that it doesn't have to be called a "marriage", but rather a legally recognized civil union with all the same protections as married couples.

Where I go off the rails is when somebody argues from a purely religious POV as the final say in justifying condemnation.

Let's walk this through.

Two couples come to the Court House one sunny Wednesday morning and wish to enter into a legal union making them spouses to each other.

One is a heterosexual couple and one is a homosexual couple.

Things being as they are, neither couple has the slightest clue as to the religious beliefs of the civil magistrate officiating the ceremony and no religious verbiage will uttered by said Civil servant, and the whole things ends with "By the powers vested in me by the State of ____________, I now pronounce you ___________."

Is it your idea that the heterosexual couple will walk away with a "higher" level union than the same-sex couple?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #285 on: October 14, 2014, 06:17:59 am »
Let's walk this through.

Two couples come to the Court House one sunny Wednesday morning and wish to enter into a legal union making them spouses to each other.

One is a heterosexual couple and one is a homosexual couple.

Things being as they are, neither couple has the slightest clue as to the religious beliefs of the civil magistrate officiating the ceremony and no religious verbiage will uttered by said Civil servant, and the whole things ends with "By the powers vested in me by the State of ____________, I now pronounce you ___________."

Is it your idea that the heterosexual couple will walk away with a "higher" level union than the same-sex couple?

Not at all....I was merely providing motives for the gay couple to want to be recognized....to have the same legal protections as a married couple.

My term "civil union" was  merely to placate those people who hold that "marriage" is one man and one woman.  Nothing else.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #286 on: October 14, 2014, 11:33:25 am »
Not at all....I was merely providing motives for the gay couple to want to be recognized....to have the same legal protections as a married couple.

My term "civil union" was  merely to placate those people who hold that "marriage" is one man and one woman.  Nothing else.

Here's a thought.

If you want yours to be a "marriage", then take the time to find a Church and have the ceremony in that Church with the ceremony presided over by a man (or woman) of the cloth. Eventually (if it isn't the case already) there will be Churches of one manner or another that will officiate over same-sex weddings.

By the same token, anyone (same-sex or different sexes) whose ceremony is presided over by a Civil servant will enter into a Civil union.

It's kind of neat and tidy that way, don't you think?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline olde north church

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #287 on: October 14, 2014, 12:18:40 pm »
So along the lines of our 1st amendment, why does religious consideration come into argument for or against gay marriage, at all?

I don't want the Catholics, or muslims, or born-again dictating our nation's laws.

That is really where Pastor Huckabee is coming from. If the GOP won't help him have his faith dictate the nation's laws, he has no use for the party.

Huckabee's faith was once a supporter of slavery America. As a school child I was pissed the schools catered to the Catholic students and served us fish on Fridays.

Actually, Catholics could be dictating our nation's law.  Fortunately or unfortunately, 1 of the Catholics is on the "opposing side".
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #288 on: October 14, 2014, 01:04:56 pm »
Well...it was a good thread.   **nononono*

I do believe that many of those who claim gay marriage doesn't in any way prevent promiscuity are doing so on religious grounds.  That's something no one can argue with, but they should simply "come out" as they say, and proclaim it!  Trying to argue a religious point of view against all the data in the world makes one look less than honest.  And even worse, suggesting it has anything to do with conservatism surely isn't realistic.

I don't remember that anyone argued that 'gay marriage doesn't in any way prevent promiscuity'.  Please show where that happened before you proclaim it.

What isn't realistic is suggesting that supporting gay marriage has anything to do with conservatism...


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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #289 on: October 14, 2014, 01:09:15 pm »
Seedy, unhealthy behavior among the gay sub-culture - yes.
Loyal, faithful, monogamous relationships among gays - yes.

Except any 'loyal, faithful, monogamous relationship among gays' is appealing to the fallacy of overwhelming exception to overturn the general rule.

That is a fallacy every time it is used...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #290 on: October 14, 2014, 01:14:11 pm »
It's crystal clear to me that GD has a strong opinion, based upon his religious upbringing.

Actually, it is based on what I saw and what homosexuals themselves told me.

Quote
Imagine if you will.  Many of here have homosexuals in our own family...in our workplace...and in our circle-of-influence.  They seem and act in a mature manner, and are not the least bit predatory or on the make.  According to Dan, those experiences and acquaintances are strictly the exception to the rule.

That is correct.  The culture is promiscuous, anonymous, predatory and drug-fueled.  There is a reason that so many actors are gay.  Gays are forced to 'act' most of the time they are among straights.

Quote
Yet, he doesn't have the balls to admit that his own firsthand experiences....as vague as they are to all of us...are based upon bible verses and Catechism classes, which have clouded his objectivity.

Nothing to admit there because that's not where the experiences came from.

Quote
I have a friend who is a homosexual...and I never hesitated to have him babysit my children when they were younger.  He is the cleanest, tidiest, orderly and most gentle person I've known in my life.

And that goes for any of his personal friends that he's introduced me to over the years.

Awwww.....why I still wasting my time on this thread, is a mystery to me.    **nononono*

Maybe he didn't molest any of your children, but many, many homosexuals were molested as children by (you guessed it) homosexuals...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #291 on: October 14, 2014, 01:16:41 pm »
Your words Dan:

...you haven't seen anything.
Or perhaps I am speaking from experience and an informed viewpoint.
I saw it happen.
As I said, I saw it happen...
It is not reality.  I saw reality.
No, I saw reality.
The reality I saw was confirmed and testified to by the people I was helping as being reality, and much more.
...you guys don't have any experience with the issue

Dan, surely you can see why we were curious.  While perhaps not an "expert", you inferred a unique experience.  We asked you to share.  You chose not to.  And... I have let it go.

Yeah, so?  I told you I had personal experience with the culture helping taking care of AIDS patients.  For someone who as 'let it go' you keep bringing it up for some reason...

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #292 on: October 14, 2014, 01:19:43 pm »
There is no "general rule" Dan.

What you are basing your argument on is an animus towards gays.

That could simply be a very sad commentary on their heterosexual counterparts, nothing more...

The sad thing here Dan, is you.

Yes Luis, there is a general rule for the homosexual lifestyle.  It is promiscuous, anonymous, predatory and drug-fueled.

If I had animus toward gay people, I would not have helped them during the AIDS epidemic.  I helped because I cared about them and their souls but that doesn't mean that I will allow you guys to lie about the culture.

The sad thing here Luis, is you...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #293 on: October 14, 2014, 01:21:51 pm »

In light of that, I find it highly amusing that (generally speaking) it's Protestants that lead the charge against same-sex divorce by citing Scripture.

It was Luther who argued that marriage was a legal, not religious matter.

Luther took God out of marriage and handed the whole thing over to The State, and here we are. And it will be the State that will redefine marriage once again naturally defaulting to inclusion rather than exclusion.


Well, protestants aren't like Catholics where we are bound by the words or actions of someone else...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #294 on: October 14, 2014, 01:49:21 pm »
Yes Luis, there is a general rule for the homosexual lifestyle.  It is promiscuous, anonymous, predatory and drug-fueled.

If I had animus toward gay people, I would not have helped them during the AIDS epidemic.  I helped because I cared about them and their souls but that doesn't mean that I will allow you guys to lie about the culture.

The sad thing here Luis, is you...

No there isn't any such "general rule" anywhere outside your head Dan. There may have been a portion of the population that engaged in that sort of behavior, but the fact that you made up your mind about the entire population based on the actions of a portion of that population some twenty-five years ago, and are not willing to change your outlook this many years later is sad.

Certainly the existence of a portion of the heterosexual population that today engages in promiscuous, drug-enduced predatory sexual behavior does not warrant that the entirety of the whole heterosexual population be judge by their actions.

I actually feel bad for you.

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #295 on: October 14, 2014, 01:50:47 pm »
Actually, it is based on what I saw and what homosexuals themselves told me.

That is correct.  The culture is promiscuous, anonymous, predatory and drug-fueled.  There is a reason that so many actors are gay.  Gays are forced to 'act' most of the time they are among straights.

Nothing to admit there because that's not where the experiences came from.

Maybe he didn't molest any of your children, but many, many homosexuals were molested as children by (you guessed it) homosexuals...

Heterosexual molestation outpace homosexual orientations by a ratio of 11:1.

You're the absolute king of unfounded generalizations.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #296 on: October 14, 2014, 01:54:58 pm »
I told you I had personal experience with the culture helping taking care of AIDS patients. 

Where did you tell me?
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #297 on: October 14, 2014, 01:56:32 pm »
Heterosexual molestation outpace homosexual orientations by a ratio of 11:1.

You're the absolute king of unfounded generalizations.

And you're the king of irrelevant statistics.

Homosexuals who were molested as boys were overwhelmingly molested by other males which would make the molester homosexual themselves.  Unless you're going to argue that males molesting other males isn't homosexual?

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #298 on: October 14, 2014, 01:56:51 pm »
Where did you tell me?

Read the thread, Lando...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Re: Huckabee: GOP Needs To Fight Gay Marriage Even More Or I'm Leaving
« Reply #299 on: October 14, 2014, 02:00:48 pm »
This thread is bordering on personal attacks...stop it or I will close the thread.
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