Supreme Court denies gay marriage appeals

[MACVSOG68]

Interesting questions you ask.  It's clear you've spent some time thinking about why homosexual marriage is NOT harmful to America, nor part of the overall decline in our culture.  I'll try to deal with the issues you raise one at a time.

I have because I owe it to myself.  I don't even like the idea of homosexual behavior.  So I tried to rationalize my feelings about it, and have come to the conclusion that as a product of the '40s and '50s, it's just there and ain't gonna go away.  That doesn't make it right, and I looked at every possible argument against legal gay relationships, and at the end of the day found most of them lacking factually and most of them based on emotions or religious rationale.

1.  When the discussion is about how the overall moral decline in America has harmed the country, how can the normalization of what was once understood by all/most as a perversion be in any way coincidental?  You're stretching logic to an extreme by supposing that the two subjects are not related.

Perhaps it's no different from other issues including birth control availability, early-stage abortion, homosexual privacy (Texas), and the availability of interracial marriages...all of which have been roundly condemned as bringing down a once great nation.

2.  The fact that amoral behavior crosses over sexual 'preferences' is actually a reinforcement of my point.  The "sexual revolution" has destroyed the moral fabric of this nation, it has ruined marriages, it has ruined relationships, it has ruined health, it has spread disease, it has caused emotional trauma, it has destroyed children's lives.......  Homosexuality is only part of the mess.  That's the point I've been making all a long.

And yet my point has been, so why don't we try to protect monogamous relationships?  Wouldn't that regardless of gender, help cut down the "sexual revolution" you're concerned about?  How many heterosexual marriages have been in any way harmed by gay marriage?  Mine certainly hasn't.

3.  I haven't got a clue as to why you asked me if monogamous relationships are more harmful than no relationships.  It's either has nothing to do with anything I've said, or is the opposite of what I've said.  In any case, there's no way to answer a question that makes no sense.

It has everything to do with your point.  I too am concerned about the explosion of sexual conduct in the media and in our lives.  Why wouldn't I want to prevent a monogamous relationship regardless of gender, when that is exactly the antidote to this explosion?

I'm going to repeat what I've said.  The 'normalization' of homosexuality is part of the destruction of the left of our culture.  This administration is gung ho in favor of it, as has been said by others above.  Homosexual marriage is part of the big picture of harming the social fabric of the nation.

AND............ legalizing homosexual marriage is opening Pandora's Box to legalizing all sorts of other sordid relationships because the boundaries that nature and nature's God set up for marriage, and understood by the Founders has now been successfully torn down.

No offense, but man, not nature set up the boundaries for marriage.  And for a long time, consent wasn't always one of the boundaries.  Nor was age, as in Mississippi, twelve years was old enough at one time.  Throughout history in both Western and other cultures women were essentially bought and/or told who they would marry.  Arranged marriages to help political motives?  So the history of marriage hasn't always been roses by any stretch...even in this Country.

[musiclady]

Sorry for not responding in detail, MAC, but I think I've made my points with both logic and reason, as well as the moral foundation that is required for a society to thrive.

We clearly disagree because we don't share the same fundamental understanding of what marriage should be vs. what man has done to mess it up. 

I will finish this discussion by making even more emphatically the point that homosexual marriage is only one piece in the puzzle, and nothing you've brought up about man-made errors in the past changes the reality that it is part of what is tearing America down.  (I'm a woman and a feminist.  TRUST me, I know the problems with marriage world wide and in earlier days in this country.  They don't change the point at all that, in this country, morality was foundational, and now that foundation has been shattered).

I appreciate that you're being a champion of homosexual monogamy here, but again, it doesn't alter the reality that a moral culture does not include accepting homosexuality as merely a 'preference,' and certainly doesn't accept the 'fundamental transformation' of the very definition of marriage.  It IS possible to love others and not accept the wrong they do.

Nor does your support of homosexual marriage, alter the reality that the sexual revolution in the 60's which spawned this change in the definition of marriage,  has brought disease, emotional turmoil, divorce and the destruction of the family, rape, trauma and all sorts of deep physical harm on this country, and all who are affected by its negative influence.  If you do whatever you feel like doing, you are not behaving responsibly..... and that, even you must admit, is part of what's wrong with America today.

The left has championed this revolution, but I'll have to admit being disheartened that some who post on conservative boards seem to be championing it as well.  It shows how effective their campaign has been to tear down and remake our culture.

[olde north church]

I think you know that I'm not saying any such thing.  (You do, don't you?)

And I know you understand that what has changed was a cultural acceptance and encouragement of things that had been previously understood as wrong in this country.  (Assyrians??  Seriously??  Oy ).

If you're over 60, you were raised in a culture that understood that sexual perversion, one night stands, dalliances outside of marriage, teen-age pregnancy were wrong.  (NOT that it didn't happen.  Yikes.  Gimme a break).

Now we've got a President encouraging it, Senators saying you should be able to marry anyone you "love."  And here we are on a conservative website having to defend basic morality in a country that depends on morality to survive......

Acceptance is the key word, in a way.  In the "old days", people just closed their eyes and thought of the Queen.  Do I want to watch Oprah's cavalcade of queerdom?  Not at all.  I don't, however, want people who have been abused shoved to the side and buried under the advice of the crowd to "Hide it.  You'll forget about it soon."
What people seem to forget, there is no legitimacy or illegitimacy in America.  Not in the strictest sense anyway.  There are no titles of nobility in America.  That is what "legitimate" refers to.
I don't care if two people of legal age are playing hide the salami, tickle the carpet or horizontal bop.  It doesn't affect me.  When some "Loosey Lucy" wants me to pay for her abortion or birth control, that affects me.
We have more important irons in the fire.

[musiclady]

Acceptance is the key word, in a way.  In the "old days", people just closed their eyes and thought of the Queen.  Do I want to watch Oprah's cavalcade of queerdom?  Not at all.  I don't, however, want people who have been abused shoved to the side and buried under the advice of the crowd to "Hide it.  You'll forget about it soon."
What people seem to forget, there is no legitimacy or illegitimacy in America.  Not in the strictest sense anyway.  There are no titles of nobility in America.  That is what "legitimate" refers to.
I don't care if two people of legal age are playing hide the salami, tickle the carpet or horizontal bop.  It doesn't affect me.  When some "Loosey Lucy" wants me to pay for her abortion or birth control, that affects me.
We have more important irons in the fire.

Babies having babies (or worse yet, killing them), children with STD's, the disintegration of the family, rampant, unchecked sexual behavior of any kind .........it affects us ALL.

It's part of the big picture of destruction, and one of the irons in the fire that we had better tend to.

[MACVSOG68]

Musiclady posted:

The left has championed this revolution, but I'll have to admit being disheartened that some who post on conservative boards seem to be championing it as well.

Well, perhaps I've overstayed my welcome.  Take care M'am.

[musiclady]

Musiclady posted:

Well, perhaps I've overstayed my welcome.  Take care M'am.

I actually thought the same of myself.   ^-^

You take care as well.

[jmyrlefuller]

UPDATE: Justice Anthony Kennedy has issued a temporary stay blocking the 9th Circuit ruling overthrowing same-sex marriage bans in Idaho and Utah. This story is developing.

[musiclady]

UPDATE: Justice Anthony Kennedy has issued a temporary stay blocking the 9th Circuit ruling overthrowing same-sex marriage bans in Idaho and Utah. This story is developing.

Curious.

[Machiavelli]

Brad Heath
USA Today via The Salt Lake Tribune
October 7, 2014

The Supreme Court’s decision to sit out the legal battle over same-sex marriage will — for now, at least — leave the future of laws prohibiting gays and lesbians from marrying in the hands of lower state and federal court judges. But it also almost certainly means the couples challenging those laws are more likely to win in the end.

The court said Monday that it would not hear appeals from Utah and four other states whose same-sex marriage bans had been invalidated by lower federal courts. The decision, issued without explanation, will likely lead to recognition of gay marriages in 11 more states. It also allows an avalanche of legal challenges to the remaining bans to keep going forward in state and federal courts, where gay and lesbian couples have overwhelmingly prevailed.

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[Cyber Liberty]

The SCOTUS just kicked the can down the road.  It's only a matter of time before Roberts finds the necessary emanations and penumbras to simply make gay marriage legal everywhere, as they did with Abortion.  You know he wants to.  Then, it will be ripe to start pushing for polygamy and incest.  Maybe even a goat or two if the Muzzies ever have their way.

When they do, another 50-years culture war will begin....

[Machiavelli]

The SCOTUS just kicked the can down the road.  It's only a matter of time before Roberts finds the necessary emanations and penumbras to simply make gay marriage legal everywhere, as they did with Abortion.  You know he wants to.  Then, it will be ripe to start pushing for polygamy and incest.  Maybe even a goat or two if the Muzzies ever have their way.

When they do, another 50-years culture war will begin....

Great SCOTUS!

[Atomic Cow]

The SCOTUS just kicked the can down the road.  It's only a matter of time before Roberts finds the necessary emanations and penumbras to simply make gay marriage legal everywhere, as they did with Abortion.  You know he wants to.  Then, it will be ripe to start pushing for polygamy and incest.  Maybe even a goat or two if the Muzzies ever have their way.

When they do, another 50-years culture war will begin....

Actually Roberts wants the appellate courts to do the dirty work so he doesn't have to.  He doesn't want *his* Court tagged with a Roe v. Wade type decision.  He is praying none of them will rule differently so the Supreme Court can simply take another dodge.

But yes, next will come polygamy, incest, and then pedophilia.

At the same time, will come the attempt to finally outlaw Christianity which is the real goal of the activists.

[MACVSOG68]

Actually Roberts wants the appellate courts to do the dirty work so he doesn't have to.  He doesn't want *his* Court tagged with a Roe v. Wade type decision.  He is praying none of them will rule differently so the Supreme Court can simply take another dodge.

But yes, next will come polygamy, incest, and then pedophilia.

At the same time, will come the attempt to finally outlaw Christianity which is the real goal of the activists.

Polygamy may come over time, but there are a lot of legal considerations in terms of divorce, estates, etc.  Incest maybe but unlikely if both parties don't pass the age test.  Pedophilia never since there are victims. 

I have no idea how anyone visualizes outlawing Christianity...or any religion as far as that goes. 

[Atomic Cow]

Polygamy may come over time, but there are a lot of legal considerations in terms of divorce, estates, etc.  Incest maybe but unlikely if both parties don't pass the age test.  Pedophilia never since there are victims. 

I have no idea how anyone visualizes outlawing Christianity...or any religion as far as that goes.

The left is already pushing to change pedopphilia to a "disability" or other such garbage.  Just like with homosexuality, the first step is to remove it start with how it is defined.  If it made to seem less threatening, then the uninformed idiots will start thinking it is okay.

And yes, they want to outlaw the Christian church, by declaring it to be a "hate group" and engaged in "hate speech."

If you don't believe that, then either you are extremely naive and have no clue how leftists operate, or you support the goal to one degree or another.

[MACVSOG68]

The left is already pushing to change pedopphilia to a "disability" or other such garbage.  Just like with homosexuality, the first step is to remove it start with how it is defined.  If it made to seem less threatening, then the uninformed idiots will start thinking it is okay.

Pretty unlikely, but even if some would consider it a disability, that would also suggest the same for homosexuals, an idea the left abhors.  And even then, with pedophilia there are victims.

And yes, they want to outlaw the Christian church, by declaring it to be a "hate group" and engaged in "hate speech."

Who is they? and where is the proposed legislation?

If you don't believe that, then either you are extremely naive and have no clue how leftists operate, or you support the goal to one degree or another.

And you sir, are an idiot!

[DCPatriot]

Pretty unlikely, but even if some would consider it a disability, that would also suggest the same for homosexuals, an idea the left abhors.  And even then, with pedophilia there are victims.

Who is they? and where is the proposed legislation?

And you sir, are an idiot!

Sitting on the 50 yard line here.....it's fascinating to read opinions that accuse others of naivety and/or ignorance when they seem to go against their personal belief system.

A poster can only take so much...providing case law, etc., only to be impugned as naive or ignorant whenever they don't slink away from the debate.

Kudos, MAC!    

[GourmetDan]

The left is already pushing to change pedopphilia to a "disability" or other such garbage.  Just like with homosexuality, the first step is to remove it start with how it is defined.  If it made to seem less threatening, then the uninformed idiots will start thinking it is okay.

And yes, they want to outlaw the Christian church, by declaring it to be a "hate group" and engaged in "hate speech."

If you don't believe that, then either you are extremely naive and have no clue how leftists operate, or you support the goal to one degree or another.

Yeah, you're right AC.  Some can see it, others can't...

[MACVSOG68]

Sitting on the 50 yard line here.....it's fascinating to read opinions that accuse others of naivety and/or ignorance when they seem to go against their personal belief system.

A poster can only take so much...providing case law, etc., only to be impugned as naive or ignorant whenever they don't slink away from the debate.

Kudos, MAC!   

Thank you sir.  Guess I shoulda stepped back a minute.   

[DCPatriot]

Thank you sir.  Guess I shoulda stepped back a minute.   

Not at all....you have the patience of Job dealing with the same couple of members who, IMO, have a completely incorrect idea of what kind of person you are.

 

[MACVSOG68]

Not at all....you have the patience of Job dealing with the same couple of members who, IMO, have a completely incorrect idea of what kind of person you are.

 

As with other social issues, it becomes difficult to debate with facts or logic.  Actually many on the left display the same type of reaction.  If one is not 100% invested in gay marriage, that's proof of hatred.  Both wings of this issue can get very protective of their turf.  My only concern is that it not become an election issue, especially with the real problems facing us today.  And Huckabee, for whatever chance he might have had in '16, has burned his bridge to the small group of realistic GOP candidates.