Author Topic: “Rudy v. Lee” Supreme Court Case Could Put Spotlight On Obama’s Constitutional Eligibility  (Read 4970 times)

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Offline MACVSOG68

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I think the guy's just been jerking you around, Bigun.

You explained your position quite well a long time ago...

 8bs8
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Offline DCPatriot

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I think the guy's just been jerking you around, Bigun.

You explained your position quite well a long time ago...

Sorry, Dan, but MAC doesn't jerk anybody around.

Anybody can express a position by cutting and pasting other's work.

I'm already on record here of congratulating both Bigun and MAC for providing us a thoughtful and entertaining debate on this issue.

But it seems to evolved into a pissing contest now.

We're lucky to have both here as active members and would hate to see it get personal.   :patriot:
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 07:38:44 pm by DCPatriot »
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Offline MACVSOG68

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w
We have already established  quite a record here on this subject and I am content at this point to leave it to each individual reader to decide which side of the argument he wants to be on.

That's a good decision on your part...considering the record.  I can only suggest in the future you read what you post, or at least paraphrase those parts that are relevant.  Honestly given With all due respect. :truce:
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Oceander

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All that being said, the Supreme Court will never rule that Obama is ineligible because of the natural born Citizen requirement.  Period.  The incentive to not do so should be obvious - if conservatives think liberals are destroying the country, just wait to see what happens if they get their fondest wish and undo the last 6 years of the federal government - and the basis for doing so is robust and on point, notwithstanding that there are other opinions out there.

If Rudy loses at the Court of Appeals level the Supreme Court will simply reject the request for cert. without comment.  If Rudy wins at the Court of Appeals level, the Supreme Court will either reverse without comment, or will reverse on the basis that the challenge is untimely and should have been raised, if at all, prior to the election in 2008 (or even in 2012), or on the basis that the matter is a political question that is best resolved by the states and the other two branches of the federal government.

The rest of this is nothing more than an academic discussion akin to asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - i.e., a child's game - so personality and emotions ought to be kept in check.

Offline GourmetDan

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Sorry, Dan, but MAC doesn't jerk anybody around.

Sorry DC, but I'd have to disagree on that point...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Oceander

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Boy, there sure are a lot of sorry sad-sacks around here!



Online Bigun

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All that being said, the Supreme Court will never rule that Obama is ineligible because of the natural born Citizen requirement.  Period.  The incentive to not do so should be obvious - if conservatives think liberals are destroying the country, just wait to see what happens if they get their fondest wish and undo the last 6 years of the federal government - and the basis for doing so is robust and on point, notwithstanding that there are other opinions out there.

If Rudy loses at the Court of Appeals level the Supreme Court will simply reject the request for cert. without comment.  If Rudy wins at the Court of Appeals level, the Supreme Court will either reverse without comment, or will reverse on the basis that the challenge is untimely and should have been raised, if at all, prior to the election in 2008 (or even in 2012), or on the basis that the matter is a political question that is best resolved by the states and the other two branches of the federal government.

The rest of this is nothing more than an academic discussion akin to asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - i.e., a child's game - so personality and emotions ought to be kept in check.

I wouldn't be the lest bit surprised by either of those outcomes as they have already proven that they are absolute cowards when it comes to anything Obama.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 10:22:23 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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I think the guy's just been jerking you around, Bigun.

You explained your position quite well a long time ago...
Thanks Dan! I've certainly tried.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Sorry DC, but I'd have to disagree on that point...

Well...don't feel like cheerleading is the only job left here.  Feel free to actually discuss any of the issues. 
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Thanks Dan! I've certainly tried.

Of course you have my friend.  Some of us just can't pick up on the complexities.   :thud:
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Online Bigun

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Of course you have my friend.  Some of us just can't pick up on the complexities.   :thud:

Yes that is true and I'm very sorry that you find yourself in that predicament!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 02:10:10 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DCPatriot

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Yes that is true and I'm very sorry that you find yourself in that predicament!

Oy vey!    :laugh:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline MACVSOG68

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Yes that is true and I'm very sorry that you find yourself in that predicament!

Tisn't an easy burden to bear, but I do appreciate how you can just cut through pages of the most mundane and seemingly worthless trivia to bring light to those of us who just cannot see.  I'm humbled.   :da man:
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Oceander

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I wouldn't be the lest bit surprised by either of those outcomes as they have already proven that they are absolute cowards when it comes to anything Obama.

It has nothing to do with cowardice and everything to do with a reasonable application of the law - just because they don't choose the argument you think best doesn't mean that their choice was false or wrong, it may simply mean that they made a different choice - judicial bravery and a keen sense of the sometimes delicate balance the Founders wrought in the Constitution.  Or will you also accuse C.J. John Marshall of cowardice in Marbury v. Madison for having punted on the Court's power to dictate results after having claimed for the Court the power to be the sole and ultimate arbiter of what the Constitution meant?  C.J. Marshall was the master of judicial judo and managed to wrest a victory despite having, to all appearances, caved to the political threats of the day.

You seem to have as much of a desire to destroy this country for the sake of a few quaint ideological doodads as do the hardest left of Obama's supporters.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 04:16:48 am by Oceander »

Online Bigun

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It has nothing to do with cowardice and everything to do with a reasonable application of the law - just because they don't choose the argument you think best doesn't mean that their choice was false or wrong, it may simply mean that they made a different choice - judicial bravery and a keen sense of the sometimes delicate balance the Founders wrought in the Constitution.  Or will you also accuse C.J. John Marshall of cowardice in Marbury v. Madison for having punted on the Court's power to dictate results after having claimed for the Court the power to be the sole and ultimate arbiter of what the Constitution meant?  C.J. Marshall was the master of judicial judo and managed to wrest a victory despite having, to all appearances, caved to the political threats of the day.



You seem to have as much of a desire to destroy this country for the sake of a few quaint ideological doodads as do the hardest left of Obama's supporters.

If I understand you correctly standing up for the Constitution is lunacy which seeks to destroy the country and not standing up for the Constitution, even though that is the heart and soul of your job, is fine by you!

Forgive me for finding that an utterly Orwellian concept.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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If I understand you correctly standing up for the Constitution is lunacy which seeks to destroy the country and not standing up for the Constitution, even though that is the heart and soul of your job, is fine by you!

Forgive me for finding that an utterly Orwellian concept.

No, you didn't understand him correctly.  Those who put together those birther cases hardly had the Constitution in mind.  After all, why should this current High Court follow the precedent set by earlier courts, right?  Perhaps you could call a constitutional convention and settle the matter once and for all.  But just curious.  If Ted Cruz runs in 2016, will you vote for him?
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Online Bigun

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It has nothing to do with cowardice and everything to do with a reasonable application of the law - just because they don't choose the argument you think best doesn't mean that their choice was false or wrong, it may simply mean that they made a different choice - judicial bravery and a keen sense of the sometimes delicate balance the Founders wrought in the Constitution.  Or will you also accuse C.J. John Marshall of cowardice in Marbury v. Madison for having punted on the Court's power to dictate results after having claimed for the Court the power to be the sole and ultimate arbiter of what the Constitution meant?  C.J. Marshall was the master of judicial judo and managed to wrest a victory despite having, to all appearances, caved to the political threats of the day..

John Marshall is a very interesting man indeed (there would have been no president in the newly minted United States if he and his friend Alexander Hamilton had gotten their way as both would have preferred a king)  and DEFINITELY no a coward. He brazenly, and VERY controversially in the year 1803, assigned to the court great power nowhere granted that court by the Constitution.  Of course I am speaking of Judicial review- the power to overturn laws - here.  Since that power was clearly not granted the court by the Constitution where did Mr. Chief Justice Marshall find it? Well... wait for it... he found it in the thing he knew best (probably better than any other man in America save St. George Tucker). He found it in {{{{{{{GULP}}}}}}}}} English Common Law!

I do not argue with that finding but surely DO  wonder why some here seem to think it fine to invoke English Common Law when it suits their purpose but then completely ignore it when it doesn't as has been the case on this very thread up to now.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 03:19:47 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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No, you didn't understand him correctly.

Oh! What did I miss?

Quote
Those who put together those birther cases hardly had the Constitution in mind.

And you know this exactly how?

Quote
After all, why should this current High Court follow the precedent set by earlier courts, right?

If the president cases were decided properly they should. If they were wrongly decided they should not!

Quote
Perhaps you could call a constitutional convention and settle the matter once and for all.


Perhaps I should but given the current state of affairs in this country I don't think that would be a wise course to follow at all so I'll pass for now!

Quote
  But just curious.  If Ted Cruz runs in 2016, will you vote for him?

Again given the state of affairs the country find itself in at present and the fact that genies are hard to get back in the bottle once released YES! Indeed I would!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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John Marshall is a very interesting man indeed (there would have been no president in the newly minted United States if he and his friend Alexander Hamilton had gotten their way as both would have preferred a king)  and DEFINITELY no a coward. He brazenly, and VERY controversially in the year 1803, assigned to the court great power nowhere granted that court by the Constitution.  Of course I am speaking of Judicial review- the power to overturn laws - here.  Since that power was clearly not granted the court by the Constitution where did Mr. Chief Justice Marshall find it? Well... wait for it... he found it in the thing he knew best (probably better than any other man in America save St. George Tucker). He found it in {{{{{{{GULP}}}}}}}}} English Common Law!

I do not argue with that finding but surely DO  wonder why some here seem to think it fine to invoke English Common Law when it suits their purpose but then completely ignore it when it doesn't as has been the case on this very thread up to now.

If you don't argue that Marshall found the power of judicial review in British common law, as well as Article III which states in part...The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;—..., why does it concern you that some of us here believe the Founders relied on British common law more often than not?  And if you don't accept that the SCOTUS has the power of judicial review, why then do you push for it in this case?

As for whether in fact, most of the legal usage at that time came from British common law, this is from the James Madison Research Library:

"As heirs to the majestic constitutional history of England, the intellectual and political leaders of the new Colonies intended nothing less than to incorporate into their new government the laws and liberties of Englishmen, including the well-established right of the law-abiding citizen to keep and bear arms.

They revered English customs and law. Chief Justice Howard Taft observed that:

"[t]he Framers of our Constitution were born and brought up in the atmosphere of the common law, and thought and spoke its vocabulary. They were familiar with other forms of government, recent and ancient, and indicated in their discussions earnest study and consideration of many of them; but, when they came to put their conclusions into the form of fundamental law in a compact draft, they expressed themselves in terms of the common law, confident that they could be shortly and easily understood."


"The language of the Constitution cannot be interpreted safely except by reference to the common law and to British institutions as they were when the instrument was framed and adopted."


http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm#TOP

The discussion was relative to the Second Amendment, but obviously the concept surely applies to other parts of the Constitution, especially given the common usage of the terms "natural born subjects" and "natural born citizens" being used interchangeably, as evidenced by Massachusetts from 1785 through 1791.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Quote
Quote
  But just curious.  If Ted Cruz runs in 2016, will you vote for him?

Again given the state of affairs the country find itself in at present and the fact that genies are hard to get back in the bottle once released YES! Indeed I would!

So you would push for a constitutional crisis because someone born here in the US having a citizen parent might not be a natural born citizen, but still vote for someone born in Canada with dual citizenship?  That's why I said this isn't a constitutional issue with the birthers; it is nothing more than politics.
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Oceander

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If I understand you correctly standing up for the Constitution is lunacy which seeks to destroy the country and not standing up for the Constitution, even though that is the heart and soul of your job, is fine by you!

Forgive me for finding that an utterly Orwellian concept.



You don't understand me in the least; and the only one seeking to undo the Constitution is you, who persists in taking the one view - out of several equally valid views - that would destroy this country, all for what appears to be a set of cheap little ideological trinkets.

And no, I won't forgive you for falsely, and knowingly, misrepresenting my position.  You're a better person than that, as you've demonstrated in most other debates.

You're also ignoring - I have to assume consciously since you seem to have read much on legal theory - that it is standard in the common law to impose time limitations, particularly in equity, after which contestable issues are no longer contestable and the answer is set.

Let's try a hypothetical.  I assume that you, along with most other people, believe that African Americans are not entitled to reparations for the damages done by American slavery, correct?

Why is that?

Suppose that tomorrow somebody - Bad Person - kidnaps you and forces you into hard labor at the wrong end of a whip, or a branding iron.  As a result, you suffer terribly.  Because of your sudden disappearance, your family also suffers terribly; they struggle mightily but end up losing their home and your wife and kids have to go live in a shelter.  Your kids end up in ghetto-level public schools.  Your son drops out of high school and takes up with a gang.  Your daughter becomes pregnant by a man who disappears and also drops out of school to raise the baby.  Tens years later your son, finally settling down after doing 8 years in prison for aggravated assault and grand larceny, marries the woman whom he'd already gotten pregnant.  They live in a double-wide mobile home in an area where there is a lot of crime and your son works as a janitor.  Their son also ends up taking up with a gang and eventually ends up spending life in prison for first degree murder.  Your daughter's child ends up being a junkie, living in the ghetto with a string of abusive men.  She has several children, all of whom end up in foster care.  One of those children herself ends up having a child - your great grandson - who never amounts to anything and spends his life doing odd jobs and living in his car.

When you're rescued, do you have the right to seek damages from Bad Person?  Obviously you do.

What about your wife?  Yes.  Derivative claims for damages are part and parcel of personal injury law, and she has a derivative claim for the economic and emotional losses she suffered because you were taken.

What about your children?  Yes.  They, too, have derivative claims for economic and emotional losses.

What about your grandchildren?  No.  Generally speaking the causal connection between your kidnapping and their misfortune is too tenuous, represents too long a chain of inferences, for them to have a cognizable claim for damages.

In other words, by dint of time claims for damages get cut off.  There is injury without recompense.  It's a fact of life.  It's a fact of the law.


Just as there, it is perfectly legal and logical to say that a challenge to Obama as not being a "natural born Citizen" can only be brought prior to his election as president and once he has been elected, then the discussion is over.  He is presumptively a "natural born Citizen" and that presumption cannot be rebutted after the election.


I could catalog volumes and volumes of other places in which legal rights - and Constitutional rights - get cut off after certain periods of time or after the claimant has taken some other action.  As a simple example, suppose Johnny lives in Texas, was born there, always lived there, has never traveled outside the state, and only deals with locals.  Suppose that one day he finds out he's been sued by Billy, a life-long resident of New York, in a New York State court, for stealing computer equipment from Billy's house in Yonkers.  If Johnny files a motion to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction, he's very likely to win and that will be the end of it.  He won't have to defend against the suit.  However, if he first files an answer to the complaint in which he denies the allegations, and does not at the same time file a motion to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction, then he will have to defend against the lawsuit and if he doesn't will suffer a default judgment that Billy can then take down to Texas and use to seize Johnny's house.  In fact, if Billy's evidence includes a security camera tape that captured someone who looks like Johnny, Johnny could lose if the jury believes that's him on the tape and if they disbelieve his counter evidence about never leaving Texas.

A travesty?  Hardly.  That is standard issue law on personal jurisdiction.

Then there is a concept called collateral estoppel.  That doctrine, essentially, cuts of relitigation of issues that have already been fully litigated.  In the plain vanilla variety it prevents a plaintiff from suing the same defendant for the same thing a second time after the plaintiff has already lost once.  However, it has some more exotic permutations, including one that can be termed defensive estoppel in which a person who won on an issue in one lawsuit can use that win against completely different people who sue him in completely different lawsuits, if those lawsuits are brought based on the same facts, even if these other people never had a chance to have their say in the first lawsuit.  How's that for justice?  You lose your day in court against somebody you think hurt you all because somebody else sued that person and lost in an entirely different case.  Happens more often than you might think.

There is nothing cowardly or orwellian about applying concepts like laches, or collateral estoppel, or cutting off claims for damages because the chain of causation has become a little too long; it's how the courts keep the world from getting itself completely off track.

The same reasoning is equally applicable to deciding whether Obama is a "natural born Citizen" and cutting off a case because, for example, it was brought too late - i.e., after the election - is right down one of the sweet spots of fundamental, time-honored common law jurisprudence.


And on the substance:  you have certainly done a lot of thinking on your position, for which I congratulate you, but you have not proven beyond doubt that your theory is the only theory going.  There are other theories - including the ones propounded here - that are just as valid as yours.  In point of fact, there is another canon of judicial decision-making that weighs against your theory and in favor of one of the others.  It builds off of the ancient canon that where there are two equally valid interpretations of a statute, then that interpretation is to be applied which does the least amount of violence to the rest of the statute, or to some other relevant value - such as the continuing ability of the federal government to operate.  Brought to this arena, that canon implies that where there are two competing interpretations of the term "natural born Citizen" - and there are - then that interpretation which does the least amount of violence to things - in this case, that interpretation which does not bring the entire federal government to its knees - is to be favored over the other interpretation.

If the Supreme Court were to choose one of those others over yours, you are entitled to your disappointment, but you are not entitled to accuse the Court of cowardice nor of Orwellian dissembling.

Oceander

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Again given the state of affairs the country find itself in at present and the fact that genies are hard to get back in the bottle once released YES! Indeed I would!

So you would push for a constitutional crisis because someone born here in the US having a citizen parent might not be a natural born citizen, but still vote for someone born in Canada with dual citizenship?  That's why I said this isn't a constitutional issue with the birthers; it is nothing more than politics.



Thanks for making the point much more succinctly than I ever could.

Offline DCPatriot

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You don't understand me in the least; and the only one seeking to undo the Constitution is you, who persists in taking the one view - out of several equally valid views - that would destroy this country, all for what appears to be a set of cheap little ideological trinkets.

And no, I won't forgive you for falsely, and knowingly, misrepresenting my position.  You're a better person than that, as you've demonstrated in most other debates.

You're also ignoring - I have to assume consciously since you seem to have read much on legal theory - that it is standard in the common law to impose time limitations, particularly in equity, after which contestable issues are no longer contestable and the answer is set.

Let's try a hypothetical.  I assume that you, along with most other people, believe that African Americans are not entitled to reparations for the damages done by American slavery, correct?

Why is that?

Suppose that tomorrow somebody - Bad Person - kidnaps you and forces you into hard labor at the wrong end of a whip, or a branding iron.  As a result, you suffer terribly.  Because of your sudden disappearance, your family also suffers terribly; they struggle mightily but end up losing their home and your wife and kids have to go live in a shelter.  Your kids end up in ghetto-level public schools.  Your son drops out of high school and takes up with a gang.  Your daughter becomes pregnant by a man who disappears and also drops out of school to raise the baby.  Tens years later your son, finally settling down after doing 8 years in prison for aggravated assault and grand larceny, marries the woman whom he'd already gotten pregnant.  They live in a double-wide mobile home in an area where there is a lot of crime and your son works as a janitor.  Their son also ends up taking up with a gang and eventually ends up spending life in prison for first degree murder.  Your daughter's child ends up being a junkie, living in the ghetto with a string of abusive men.  She has several children, all of whom end up in foster care.  One of those children herself ends up having a child - your great grandson - who never amounts to anything and spends his life doing odd jobs and living in his car.

When you're rescued, do you have the right to seek damages from Bad Person?  Obviously you do.

What about your wife?  Yes.  Derivative claims for damages are part and parcel of personal injury law, and she has a derivative claim for the economic and emotional losses she suffered because you were taken.

What about your children?  Yes.  They, too, have derivative claims for economic and emotional losses.

What about your grandchildren?  No.  Generally speaking the causal connection between your kidnapping and their misfortune is too tenuous, represents too long a chain of inferences, for them to have a cognizable claim for damages.

In other words, by dint of time claims for damages get cut off.  There is injury without recompense.  It's a fact of life.  It's a fact of the law.


Just as there, it is perfectly legal and logical to say that a challenge to Obama as not being a "natural born Citizen" can only be brought prior to his election as president and once he has been elected, then the discussion is over.  He is presumptively a "natural born Citizen" and that presumption cannot be rebutted after the election.


I could catalog volumes and volumes of other places in which legal rights - and Constitutional rights - get cut off after certain periods of time or after the claimant has taken some other action.  As a simple example, suppose Johnny lives in Texas, was born there, always lived there, has never traveled outside the state, and only deals with locals.  Suppose that one day he finds out he's been sued by Billy, a life-long resident of New York, in a New York State court, for stealing computer equipment from Billy's house in Yonkers.  If Johnny files a motion to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction, he's very likely to win and that will be the end of it.  He won't have to defend against the suit.  However, if he first files an answer to the complaint in which he denies the allegations, and does not at the same time file a motion to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction, then he will have to defend against the lawsuit and if he doesn't will suffer a default judgment that Billy can then take down to Texas and use to seize Johnny's house.  In fact, if Billy's evidence includes a security camera tape that captured someone who looks like Johnny, Johnny could lose if the jury believes that's him on the tape and if they disbelieve his counter evidence about never leaving Texas.

A travesty?  Hardly.  That is standard issue law on personal jurisdiction.

Then there is a concept called collateral estoppel.  That doctrine, essentially, cuts of relitigation of issues that have already been fully litigated.  In the plain vanilla variety it prevents a plaintiff from suing the same defendant for the same thing a second time after the plaintiff has already lost once.  However, it has some more exotic permutations, including one that can be termed defensive estoppel in which a person who won on an issue in one lawsuit can use that win against completely different people who sue him in completely different lawsuits, if those lawsuits are brought based on the same facts, even if these other people never had a chance to have their say in the first lawsuit.  How's that for justice?  You lose your day in court against somebody you think hurt you all because somebody else sued that person and lost in an entirely different case.  Happens more often than you might think.

There is nothing cowardly or orwellian about applying concepts like laches, or collateral estoppel, or cutting off claims for damages because the chain of causation has become a little too long; it's how the courts keep the world from getting itself completely off track.

The same reasoning is equally applicable to deciding whether Obama is a "natural born Citizen" and cutting off a case because, for example, it was brought too late - i.e., after the election - is right down one of the sweet spots of fundamental, time-honored common law jurisprudence.


And on the substance:  you have certainly done a lot of thinking on your position, for which I congratulate you, but you have not proven beyond doubt that your theory is the only theory going.  There are other theories - including the ones propounded here - that are just as valid as yours.  In point of fact, there is another canon of judicial decision-making that weighs against your theory and in favor of one of the others.  It builds off of the ancient canon that where there are two equally valid interpretations of a statute, then that interpretation is to be applied which does the least amount of violence to the rest of the statute, or to some other relevant value - such as the continuing ability of the federal government to operate.  Brought to this arena, that canon implies that where there are two competing interpretations of the term "natural born Citizen" - and there are - then that interpretation which does the least amount of violence to things - in this case, that interpretation which does not bring the entire federal government to its knees - is to be favored over the other interpretation.

If the Supreme Court were to choose one of those others over yours, you are entitled to your disappointment, but you are not entitled to accuse the Court of cowardice nor of Orwellian dissembling.

Oceander....hat tip to a magnificent presentation and rebuttal.  Seriously!  I'm gonna steal some of that when the opportunity arises among my circle-of-influence.     :beer:
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Thanks for making the point much more succinctly than I ever could.

Thank you sir, but that last post of yours was a true gem.   :beer:
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Online Bigun

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"As heirs to the majestic constitutional history of England, the intellectual and political leaders of the new Colonies intended nothing less than to incorporate into their new government the laws and liberties of Englishmen, including the well-established right of the law-abiding citizen to keep and bear arms.

They revered English customs and law. Chief Justice Howard Taft observed that:

"[t]he Framers of our Constitution were born and brought up in the atmosphere of the common law, and thought and spoke its vocabulary. They were familiar with other forms of government, recent and ancient, and indicated in their discussions earnest study and consideration of many of them; but, when they came to put their conclusions into the form of fundamental law in a compact draft, they expressed themselves in terms of the common law, confident that they could be shortly and easily understood."


"The language of the Constitution cannot be interpreted safely except by reference to the common law and to British institutions as they were when the instrument was framed and adopted."

Which is what I have been saying throughout this entire exercise!  What you cannot do is go to it when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn't!

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien