Author Topic: Obama eligibility case lives! Supreme Court's own precedent cited in new demand for resolution.  (Read 2817 times)

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Offline GourmetDan

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Only a fool predicts the outcome of SCOTUS decisions, but should the Court take this one on, I'd be pretty confident of the outcome.


You're probably right...    :silly:


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Offline Carling

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Trump has created a cult and looks more and more like Hitler every day.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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I have made my case and all of your arguments are addressed therein.  I will say nothing more here on the subject.

While I disagree that you addressed the arguments, I am curious about one thing.  Given that at least twice the SCOTUS has refused without comment to review an Obama eligibility case, why do you think this one would be any different?
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Offline truth_seeker

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I axe myself, why a Swiss man, de Vattel, writing in the French language, before the founding of the United States, would be the definitive authority?

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Offline massadvj

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The only place the OPapaDoc eligibility case actually "lives" is in right wing publications interested in getting click-thrus and marginal right wing organizations looking for an issue that will prompt yahoos to send money.  Otherwise, it's dead.  Dead I say.  Dead.

 11513

Offline Bigun

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While I disagree that you addressed the arguments, I am curious about one thing.  Given that at least twice the SCOTUS has refused without comment to review an Obama eligibility case, why do you think this one would be any different?

Because now there is an actual victim. Someone with standing.

But I'm not about to make any predictions either way.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 07:24:40 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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I'll say it again:

:facepalm2:

Offline MACVSOG68

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Because now there is an actual victim. Someone with standing.

But I'm not about to make any predictions either way.

Probably a good idea.  But just a suggestion.  I'd leave Roy Moore and Orly Taitz at home... **nononono*
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Oceander

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Probably a good idea.  But just a suggestion.  I'd leave Roy Moore and Orly Taitz at home... **nononono*


:bigsilly:

Offline MACVSOG68

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I'll say it again:

:facepalm2:

C'mon Oceander, aren't you tired of the Missouri brouhaha?  On this one, if one can ignore the frivolity of the various court cases, some of the issues make for interesting if less than challenging discussion.   :whistle:
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Oceander

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C'mon Oceander, aren't you tired of the Missouri brouhaha?  On this one, if one can ignore the frivolity of the various court cases, some of the issues make for interesting if less than challenging discussion.   :whistle:


Sometimes I get tired of debates concerning angels, dancing, and the heads of pins.  And this is the mother of them all.

Let's assume, arguendo, that Obama really wasn't eligible.  What then?  Suppose some well-intentioned court were to decide that he was ineligible; what remedy would it order?  Would it order that, with respect to the particular plaintiff, every action taken by Obama - and thus every bill enacted into law during the past 5-1/2 years - was void?  Given the rule of precedent, and how it doesn't bind sister courts, that would lead to a bizarre patchwork where people in some court districts in the US would be absolutely free of any federal executive or legislative action taken since Jan. 21, 2009, while people in other court districts would still be fully bound.

So it gets up to the S.Court toot-sweet - circuit splits and whatnot as well as an unholy constitutional mess.  What is the Supreme Court going to do?  Is it going to agree that Obama is ineligible and that, therefore, every executive and legislative action since Jan. 21, 2009 is void?  Even just straightening out the tax mess alone would be herculean - refund suits for taxes paid that should never have been levied in the first place (so, presumably, the statute of limitations on refunds wouldn't apply), and deficiencies based on deductions or exemptions that were granted but shouldn't have been.

To me this is one where you simply cut to the chase:  eligibility is a "political question" the resolution of which is left in the sole custody of the legislative and executive branches.  But the executive has consistently argued his eligibility and the legislative has never gainsaid eligibility - in point of fact, in the current miasma of impeachment chatter, ineligibility would be about the only really serious impeachable offense here.  As such, the Court would, I think, conclude that the question of Obama's eligibility, as a matter of constitutional jurisprudence, has to be answered in the affirmative:  Obama is eligible because his eligibility has not been successfully challenged or gainsaid in the only fora in which it could be.  Ergo, any lower court holding that Obama was ineligible would have to be reversed and any remedial awards undone.

The only real interesting question for me on this point is this:  when and how could we get a bipartisan consensus that it is time to remove this antediluvian appendix from the constitutional body politic through an appropriate amendment?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 08:23:00 pm by Oceander »

Offline MACVSOG68

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Sometimes I get tired of debates concerning angels, dancing, and the heads of pins.  And this is the mother of them all.

Let's assume, arguendo, that Obama really wasn't eligible.  What then?  Suppose some well-intentioned court were to decide that he was ineligible; what remedy would it order?  Would it order that, with respect to the particular plaintiff, every action taken by Obama - and thus every bill enacted into law during the past 5-1/2 years - was void?  Given the rule of precedent, and how it doesn't bind sister courts, that would lead to a bizarre patchwork where people in some court districts in the US would be absolutely free of any federal executive or legislative action taken since Jan. 21, 2009, while people in other court districts would still be fully bound.

So it gets up to the S.Court toot-sweet - circuit splits and whatnot as well as an unholy constitutional mess.  What is the Supreme Court going to do?  Is it going to agree that Obama is ineligible and that, therefore, every executive and legislative action since Jan. 21, 2009 is void?  Even just straightening out the tax mess alone would be herculean - refund suits for taxes paid that should never have been levied in the first place (so, presumably, the statute of limitations on refunds wouldn't apply), and deficiencies based on deductions or exemptions that were granted but shouldn't have been.

To me this is one where you simply cut to the chase:  eligibility is a "political question" the resolution of which is left in the sole custody of the legislative and executive branches.  But the executive has consistently argued his eligibility and the legislative has never gainsaid eligibility - in point of fact, in the current miasma of impeachment chatter, ineligibility would be about the only really serious impeachable offense here.  As such, the Court would, I think, conclude that the question of Obama's eligibility, as a matter of constitutional jurisprudence, has to be answered in the affirmative:  Obama is eligible because his eligibility has not been successfully challenged or gainsaid in the only fora in which it could be.  Ergo, any lower court holding that Obama was ineligible would have to be reversed and any remedial awards undone.

The only real interesting question for me on this point is this:  when and how could we get a bipartisan consensus that it is time to remove this antediluvian appendix from the constitutional body politic through an appropriate amendment?

I believe Oceander, you've effectively cut to the chase.  This is at worst nothing more than an exercise in  semantics and at best a difference of opinion on English common law v. the Law of Nations interpretations.  The issue has been addressed by at least two USSC decisions and numerous laws.  Not one federal court case has given any credibility to these people, not only for failure to assert standing, but more often than not frivolous use of the court's time. 

So for a $90 claim we should create a huge constitution crisis and an even greater social nightmare?  Not in a Roberts Court.
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Offline Bigun

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Sometimes I get tired of debates concerning angels, dancing, and the heads of pins.  And this is the mother of them all.

Let's assume, arguendo, that Obama really wasn't eligible.  What then?  Suppose some well-intentioned court were to decide that he was ineligible; what remedy would it order?  Would it order that, with respect to the particular plaintiff, every action taken by Obama - and thus every bill enacted into law during the past 5-1/2 years - was void?  Given the rule of precedent, and how it doesn't bind sister courts, that would lead to a bizarre patchwork where people in some court districts in the US would be absolutely free of any federal executive or legislative action taken since Jan. 21, 2009, while people in other court districts would still be fully bound.

So it gets up to the S.Court toot-sweet - circuit splits and whatnot as well as an unholy constitutional mess.  What is the Supreme Court going to do?  Is it going to agree that Obama is ineligible and that, therefore, every executive and legislative action since Jan. 21, 2009 is void?  Even just straightening out the tax mess alone would be herculean - refund suits for taxes paid that should never have been levied in the first place (so, presumably, the statute of limitations on refunds wouldn't apply), and deficiencies based on deductions or exemptions that were granted but shouldn't have been.

To me this is one where you simply cut to the chase:  eligibility is a "political question" the resolution of which is left in the sole custody of the legislative and executive branches.  But the executive has consistently argued his eligibility and the legislative has never gainsaid eligibility - in point of fact, in the current miasma of impeachment chatter, ineligibility would be about the only really serious impeachable offense here.  As such, the Court would, I think, conclude that the question of Obama's eligibility, as a matter of constitutional jurisprudence, has to be answered in the affirmative:  Obama is eligible because his eligibility has not been successfully challenged or gainsaid in the only fora in which it could be.  Ergo, any lower court holding that Obama was ineligible would have to be reversed and any remedial awards undone.

The only real interesting question for me on this point is this:  when and how could we get a bipartisan consensus that it is time to remove this antediluvian appendix from the constitutional body politic through an appropriate amendment?

Once again either we have a Constitution or we don't. It's that simple!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Fishrrman

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Eventually, the truth regarding Obama's citizenship will out, if there are things we don't know.

But this will have to wait until he is well out-of-power and his toadies are no longer to be feared...

Offline MACVSOG68

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Once again either we have a Constitution or we don't. It's that simple!

I believe the Constitution is working fine with respect to this issue.  Court case after court case has spent time looking at it.  At least 3 Supreme Court cases have directly referred to the term, one going so far as to define it, another to partially define it.  If you asked 100 random people what the difference between a natural born citizen and a naturalized citizen is, I think most could answer the question.

My question is, where is the Constitution failing us in this issue?   
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Offline Bigun

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I believe the Constitution is working fine with respect to this issue.  Court case after court case has spent time looking at it.  At least 3 Supreme Court cases have directly referred to the term, one going so far as to define it, another to partially define it.  If you asked 100 random people what the difference between a natural born citizen and a naturalized citizen is, I think most could answer the question.

My question is, where is the Constitution failing us in this issue?

It's not the Constitution that's failing us! FAR from it!  What is failing us is the fact that we are not adhering to it!

If you accept the position that a mere citizen is the same as a "natural born citizen" then nothing is amiss but I don't accept that at all and never will.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:02:29 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Dexter

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It's not the Constitution that's failing us! FAR from it!  What is failing us is the fact that we are not adhering to it!

If you accept the position that a mere citizen is the same as a "natural born citizen" then nothing is amiss but I don't accept that at all and never will.

We've attempted to amend the constitution over 11,000 times and have successfully amended it 27 times. Do you disagree with all of these? Using your logic it seems any attempt to change or not adhere to the original constitution is a dangerous perversion of its infallible origins.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:07:19 pm by Dex4974 »
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Offline Bigun

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We've attempted to amend the constitution over 11,000 times and have successfully amended it 27 times. Do you disagree with all of these?

Not only no but HELL no!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Dexter

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Not only no but HELL no!

Why? We're not adhering to the constitution when we change it.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Bigun

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Why? We're not adhering to the constitution when we change it.

Don't try and put words in my mouth light weight! I said no such thing!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Dexter

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Don't try and put words in my mouth light weight! I said no such thing!

You said we are failing because we are not adhering to the constitution. Then when I asked if you disagree with all of the amendments you said "Not only no, but hell no!"

What words have I put in your mouth? Adhering to the constitution completely would mean not altering it. If the constitution is fallible and needs to be amended then that means it is not a perfect document.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Bigun

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You said we are failing because we are not adhering to the constitution. Then when I asked if you disagree with all of the amendments you said "Not only no, but hell no!"

What words have I put in your mouth? Adhering to the constitution completely would mean not altering it. If the constitution is fallible and needs to be amended then that means it is not a perfect document.

Altering the Constitution in the manner prescribed is entirely Constitutional! And even when done in that manner there is no requirement that I, or anyone else for that matter, agree with what was done!

Stop throwing up straw men and trying to re direct what this thread is about!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Dexter

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Altering the Constitution in the manner prescribed is entirely Constitutional! And even when done in that manner there is no requirement that I, or anyone else for that matter, agree with what was done!

Stop throwing up straw men and trying to re direct what this thread is about!

The point I was trying to make is that the constitution is not an infallible holy document to the point that not adhering to it word for word can bring our nation to its knees. We try to change it all the time and have changed it many times. It was written by humans, who as we all know are far from infallible. Alright, let me try to approach this from a different angle then. I want you to look within yourself and answer this question with true honesty. If there was a good, strong Republican president that you felt was doing great things for the Republican party and it was discovered that their citizenship situation was similar to Obama's, would you fight for his or her removal from office?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:33:10 pm by Dex4974 »
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Offline MACVSOG68

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It's not the Constitution that's failing us! FAR from it!  What is failing us is the fact that we are not adhering to it!

If you accept the position that a mere citizen is the same as a "natural born citizen" then nothing is amiss but I don't accept that at all and never will.

I don't accept that either.  There are two classes of citizen: one born here (naturally), and one who comes here from another country and is naturalized.  A further requirement is that the person be under the jurisdiction of the US, thus leaving out those who come here as representatives of another government, and any offspring even though they are born here.  The question of allegiance also arises, and federal law covers that including dual-citizens. 
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Offline Bigun

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I don't accept that either.  There are two classes of citizen: one born here (naturally), and one who comes here from another country and is naturalized.  A further requirement is that the person be under the jurisdiction of the US, thus leaving out those who come here as representatives of another government, and any offspring even though they are born here.  The question of allegiance also arises, and federal law covers that including dual-citizens.

Read what I wrote up thread. I have no intention of repeating it again.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien