Author Topic: T.E.A. and Solipsism with Lolita - How Conservatives Killed the T.E.A. Party  (Read 31444 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I don't disagree.  However, the last successful GOP presidential candidate won with a plurality that included these folks.  So far, I don't see any evidence that moderates can be moved to the GOP, although moderates themselves often claim if we just throw the SoCons under the bus, they'll come in droves.  Well, the GOP in most of the northeast states has done just that, and where are they?

You know that I am no SoCon.  But I see no reason to intentionally antagonize that faction of the party.  When they propose something stupid - like public funding of churches, mandatory prayer in the schools, the teaching of creationism or a constitutional amendment banning abortion - then I will oppose those policies.  But otherwise I am not going to intentionally denigrate decent, God-fearing people who are usually model citizens.

The there is the sustainable theory which accredits Romney's loss to Evangelicals and the Southern Christian Right staying home in droves on Election Day.   
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline truth_seeker

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TBR is all about the *big tent* and I am not going to go through another election year of GOP factions here bashing each other for not seeing or adopting their POV..we all believe what we believe and TBR was created as a place where we could ALL discuss our POV's and more importantly work to over throw our common enemy...THE DEMOCRATS
I don't see any "bashing" here. I see people hopefully working towards supporting the eventual candidates. I know I will do that.

Otherwise, this thread is a healthy discussion of the aspects of "conservatism" as it actually is today.

If I had a place like this, I would applaud those who put forth the strongest arguments, not warn them.

And for those who would support democrats, I would warn them about the original and current mission of the forum.

But that is just me.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline massadvj

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The there is the sustainable theory which accredits Romney's loss to Evangelicals and the Southern Christian Right staying home in droves on Election Day.

I don't know if it is the reason he lost, but I do think a lot of evangelicals stayed home because Romney is a Mormon.  To me, Romney's record was as liberal as anyone in the GOP.  I would not support him until the last few weeks of the election, not because of his religion but because he is a Wall Street establishment politician.  My point is, if Mitt Romney was unable to garner enough moderate votes to overcome the loss of evangelicals, then how far to the left does the party have to go to get moderates?  Not just on social issues, but on fiscal issues.

For example, freedom to choose abortion is now the law of the land.  Do we placate moderates who insist on government-funded abortion on demand?  How about those who insist we attach welfare dependency to amnesty?  How about we appeal to moderate women with universal government-funded pre-school?  The fiscal arena is where these issues are being played out. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 05:49:30 pm by massadvj »

Offline DCPatriot

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I don't see any "bashing" here. I see people hopefully working towards supporting the eventual candidates. I know I will do that.

Otherwise, this thread is a healthy discussion of the aspects of "conservatism" as it actually is today.

If I had a place like this, I would applaud those who put forth the strongest arguments, not warn them.

And for those who would support democrats, I would warn them about the original and current mission of the forum.

But that is just me.

Absolutely have to agree with you 100%!   With a smile, I might add.
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Offline mystery-ak

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I don't see any "bashing" here. I see people hopefully working towards supporting the eventual candidates. I know I will do that.

Otherwise, this thread is a healthy discussion of the aspects of "conservatism" as it actually is today.

If I had a place like this, I would applaud those who put forth the strongest arguments, not warn them.

And for those who would support democrats, I would warn them about the original and current mission of the forum.

But that is just me.

I didn't say it was happening now...as an aside were you here in 2012..I can recall a lot of bashing especially towards members of the Tea Party....hopefully we don't have members here who support Dems..if that is the case they logged into the wrong forum....
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I don't know if it is the reason he lost, but I do think a lot of evangelicals stayed home because Romney is a Mormon.  To me, Romney's record was as liberal as anyone in the GOP.  I would not support him until the last few weeks of the election, not because of his religion but because he is a Wall Street establishment politician.  My point is, if Mitt Romney was unable to garner enough moderate votes to overcome the loss of evangelicals, then how far to the left does the party have to go to get moderates?  Not just on social issues, but on fiscal issues.

For example, freedom to choose abortion is now the law of the land.  Do we placate moderates who insist on government-funded abortion on demand?  How about those who insist we attach welfare dependency to amnesty?  How about we appeal to moderate women with universal government-funded pre-school?  The fiscal arena is where these issues are being played out.

Political parties only exist to win elections. So if a political party is force to move one way or another because a portion of its membership is not supporting the Party's nominee, then the Party will move as much as it needs to move in order to win that election.

If Evangelicals can't be counted in to support the Party's nominee after the primary process has concluded, then the Party is forced to do whatever it needs to do in order to win elections. 

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline massadvj

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Political parties only exist to win elections. So if a political party is force to move one way or another because a portion of its membership is not supporting the Party's nominee, then the Party will move as much as it needs to move in order to win that election.

If Evangelicals can't be counted in to support the Party's nominee after the primary process has concluded, then the Party is forced to do whatever it needs to do in order to win elections.

In most of the northeast states, the GOP has moved in precisely the direction you advocate, and yet the party has precious little to show for it.  In fact, the Dems roll over the Republican moderates with far more ease than conservatives, precisely because they stand for nothing except expediency.  Look at Scott Brown, for example.  If what you say is true then we need to shift to where Elizabeth Warren is on the political spectrum, because that is where the center is in Massachusetts, and the rest of the country is getting there.

I'd rather die fighting for liberty than live winning elections that just propagate the same old big government expansionism.

Offline alicewonders

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I'd rather die fighting for liberty than live winning elections that just propagate the same old big government expansionism.

 :beer:   :patriot:   :amen:


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Online Bigun

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Quote
I'd rather die fighting for liberty than live winning elections that just propagate the same old big government expansionism.

Get's my vote for quote of the month!

 :da man:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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In most of the northeast states, the GOP has moved in precisely the direction you advocate, and yet the party has precious little to show for it.  In fact, the Dems roll over the Republican moderates with far more ease than conservatives, precisely because they stand for nothing except expediency.  Look at Scott Brown, for example.  If what you say is true then we need to shift to where Elizabeth Warren is on the political spectrum, because that is where the center is in Massachusetts, and the rest of the country is getting there.

I'd rather die fighting for liberty than live winning elections that just propagate the same old big government expansionism.


There is a supposition in your post that could be the subject to an entirely new thread. We don't really know whether or not a more conservative candidates would be more successful in an ultra liberal State like Mass. That's like suggesting that someone to the left of Elizabeth Warren would be a more viable candidate for the Democrats in Mississippi.

The point is that a political Party cannot just write a State off completely. 
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I'd rather die fighting for liberty than live winning elections that just propagate the same old big government expansionism.

Government expansionism is not the sole realm of liberals.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:02:03 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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Government expansionism is not the sole realm of liberals.

Luis I could be wrong but I think that is EXACTLY the point Victor was making!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Luis I could be wrong but I think that is EXACTLY the point Victor was making!

If all we can look forward to is expansionism from both liberals and conservatives why are we wasting out time?

We may as well all just lay down and die.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 09:13:58 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline speekinout

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The premise of what the T.E.A. Party was has been lost, co-opted into near obscurity by the injection of Social Conservative ideals.

I loved the original movement's across the political spectrum's membership and their rejection of the Federal government's agenda. It felt completely "American" as opposed to conservative vs liberal.

That was refreshing, and that is now gone.

 :amen:

Luis, I loved this article. It explains exactly why I became disillusioned with the Tea Party. I was very much a T.E.A. Partier in its original form - I did rallies, worked booths at community events, all of it. Our local group divided just as you said, and it's not a united group anymore. That's sad.

Offline massadvj

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If all we can look forward to is expansionism from both liberals and conservatives why are e wasting out time?

We may as well all just lay down and die.

Liberty does not die for the simple reason that we are endowed with it by our creator.  The true libertarian lives his philosophy and does not wait for government to "allow" him to live it.  This is true for the immigrant who comes to this country to exercise his right to negotiate his labor, and it applies to the gun owner who keeps his guns in spite of government edicts to turn them in.  Freedom is something that is maintained as a state of mind, not something conferred by government.  Yes, government can take freedom away, but the true liberty lover can be free though he lives in a prison, because he knows that no jailer can bind his mind.

So, no, my friend.  I will not lay down and die.  I will resist.  Sometimes resistance will manifest itself in electioneering, but more often it will manifest itself in how I live my life.  Laying down and dying is nothing more than surrendering to the bastards.

Offline EC

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There are two strong words which are rarely used.

No.

Enough.

Might be time to dust them off?
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Liberty does not die for the simple reason that we are endowed with it by our creator.  The true libertarian lives his philosophy and does not wait for government to "allow" him to live it.  This is true for the immigrant who comes to this country to exercise his right to negotiate his labor, and it applies to the gun owner who keeps his guns in spite of government edicts to turn them in.  Freedom is something that is maintained as a state of mind, not something conferred by government.  Yes, government can take freedom away, but the true liberty lover can be free though he lives in a prison, because he knows that no jailer can bind his mind.

So, no, my friend.  I will not lay down and die.  I will resist.  Sometimes resistance will manifest itself in electioneering, but more often it will manifest itself in how I live my life.  Laying down and dying is nothing more than surrendering to the bastards.

I was responding to Bigun, and if you read his post closely, he implies that my point (expansionism isn't the sole realm of liberals) is the same point you were making in your post.

If that's true, if government expansionism is the outcome of both liberal and conservatives in government, then what exactly is it that makes liberals and conservatives different, and why are bothering to vote at all?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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:amen:

Luis, I loved this article. It explains exactly why I became disillusioned with the Tea Party. I was very much a T.E.A. Partier in its original form - I did rallies, worked booths at community events, all of it. Our local group divided just as you said, and it's not a united group anymore. That's sad.

Thanks.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline massadvj

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If that's true, if government expansionism is the outcome of both liberal and conservatives in government, then what exactly is it that makes liberals and conservatives different, and why are bothering to vote at all?

I have been asking myself that question since the GHWB administration.  I still vote, but I haven't cast a presidential ballot I've been satisfied with for over 30 years.  Meanwhile, the moderates get to cast satisfying (albeit usually losing) votes cycle after cycle.  And you say we aren't moderate enough!  Well, I can't think of a national GOP figure with a more liberal record than Mitt Romney.  If he isn't moderate enough, what must we do?  Recruit Howard Dean into the party and vote for him?  And when we do, and we finally win, what will we have won, exactly? 

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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TBR is all about the *big tent* and I am not going to go through another election year of GOP factions here bashing each other for not seeing or adopting their POV..we all believe what we believe and TBR was created as a place where we could ALL discuss our POV's and more importantly work to over throw our common enemy...THE DEMOCRATS

Just as the nation's Founders agreed that the contentious issues faced by the nation should be all worked out in the laboratory of the States (bloody ones when it came to slavery), contentious interparty issues should be worked out in the laboratory of forums and debate halls (places where politics used to be argued before Al Gore invented the Internet).

It is imperative that we work through all our differences here, before the battle (as it were) is joined.

My personal goal is to incite intelligent debate among friends. It is not to act as an agent provocateur, or an agitator.

My ideas on government an politics in general are impacted every single day by posts I read here and other places, and I shift my stances as I experience paradigm shifts as a result of being exposed to a point of view that I may have not given thought to before. Understanding why those who disagree with you disagree with you is perhaps the greatest bit of political understanding that anyone could ever gain.

That (to me) is a GOOD thing. I can't be so rigid that I will break as a result of resistance to learning things, or even changing.

Politics and political ideology to me is a journey where the destination is the journey itself.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline GourmetDan

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...and more importantly work to over throw our common enemy...THE DEMOCRATS


The the left/right 'battle' is the creation of the international banking families... who are the enemy of all mankind...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I have been asking myself that question since the GHWB administration.  I still vote, but I haven't cast a presidential ballot I've been satisfied with for over 30 years.  Meanwhile, the moderates get to cast satisfying (albeit usually losing) votes cycle after cycle.  And you say we aren't moderate enough!  Well, I can't think of a national GOP figure with a more liberal record than Mitt Romney.  If he isn't moderate enough, what must we do?  Recruit Howard Dean into the party and vote for him?  And when we do, and we finally win, what will we have won, exactly?

I had never seen a more timely candidate than Mitt Romney this past election cycle.

A tried and true capitalist with real-world experience on the business of running the business that is this nation. The man was nearly God-sent in my eyes.

We have a very real, very explosive financial crisis in this nation, and we rejected Mitt Romney as a liberal.

He was rejected by a great portion of the traditional GOP vote based on his stance on social issues, and his religion.

I know few groups of people more socially conservative than Mormons.

I don't know that anything can be "done" to reverse where our society is today, but a great number of "our side" insists on supporting candidates according to their stances on issues that they can do absolutely nothing about.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 09:57:44 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline truth_seeker

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The the left/right 'battle' is the creation of the international banking families... who are the enemy of all mankind...
Okay then name these "international banking families."
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Online Bigun

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If all we can look forward to is expansionism from both liberals and conservatives why are we wasting out time?

We may as well all just lay down and die.

Are you telling me that you do not  believe that both Democrats and Republicans have expanded government greatly over the last 100 years or so?

If so you are entirely mistaken because they have and that is a historical FACT!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Are you telling me that you do not  believe that both Democrats and Republicans have expanded government greatly over the last 100 years or so?

If so you are entirely mistaken because they have and that is a historical FACT!

That's slick. You all do that all the time.
 
When it's time to slam the GOP as a bunch of "RINOs", you all draw a line of distinction between "conservatives" and Republicans.

But when I point out that conservatives are as guilty as liberals of expanding the government, suddenly you want to discuss Republicans.

Don't shift the subject back to Republicans when it's suitable.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx