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Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
DCPatriot:
Sorry, Howie.
Have no problem with calling for no amnesty per se, but you go off the rails generalizing that these aren't good law-abiding people once they're here.
When I see an unfashionably dressed woman holding bags of groceries with 3 little munchkins walking behind her in clothes too big....I see one those kids as my mother.
'She' knows nothing about Sicily...she can understand but not speak fluent Italian...and she was brought here by my grandmother. Her great granddaughter is Princeton-Yale.
How can 'you' demand respect for our laws when the existing ones haven't been enforced....when our own Justice Department publicly says they're not going to enforce laws?
Looks from here that people who religiously follow laws are more like subjects today than free men.
Bigun:
--- Quote from: DCPatriot on April 29, 2014, 02:33:09 pm ---Sorry, Howie.
Have no problem with calling for no amnesty per se, but you go off the rails generalizing that these aren't good law-abiding people once they're here.
When I see an unfashionably dressed woman holding bags of groceries with 3 little munchkins walking behind her in clothes too big....I see one those kids as my mother.
'She' knows nothing about Sicily...she can understand but not speak fluent Italian...and she was brought here by my grandmother. Her great granddaughter is Princeton-Yale.
How can 'you' demand respect for our laws when the existing ones haven't been enforced....when our own Justice Department publicly says they're not going to enforce laws?
Looks from here that people who religiously follow laws are more like subjects today than free men.
--- End quote ---
There is a LOT more to this than that! Number one of which is what message are we sending to people all over the world who are patiently standing in line trying to get in this country the RIGHT way?
katzenjammer:
--- Quote from: Bigun on April 29, 2014, 02:40:27 pm ---There is a LOT more to this than that! Number one of which is what message are we sending to people all over the world who are patiently standing in line trying to get in this country the RIGHT way?
--- End quote ---
Exactly. It doesn't matter a hoot whether or not they are "good people" or "bad people." ALL people that wish to legally immigrate into a nation must follow the laws that the nation has established. And it is the sworn duty of the nation's government to enforce the laws and keep the borders secure. This is one of the most basic and fundamental duties of said government.
massadvj:
I am probably alone in this thinking here on this site, but I think our existing laws are decidedly too anti-immigrant, and that has contributed to the problem. Now, now. Here me out.
If we go back to the 1950's and 60's when we didn't have a welfare state, and people could come and go as they pleased, there really was no problem. People came up to pick fruit or whatever, and when the work was done they went back. But then we made social welfare and unemployment available, so there was an economic incentive to just stay and do the seasonal work and collect unemployment the rest of the year. The increase in border security also became a deterrent to coming and going. It was easier to just move the family over once and be done with it.
The whole problem is caused by the economic divide between the US and Mexico. Increasing border security and keeping migrant workers out will only widen the gap between the two countries. We are both better off by allowing their workers in. We get cheap labor to produce more affordable products, and they get much needed capital to improve their economy. Free trade is always a win/win in the long run, and far better than erecting barriers, which only empowers government and special interest groups.
I propose that we loosen up our laws and let anyone in who is qualified and wants to work, but strictly enforce the law insofar as qualifying for public assistance and other benefits, which should be a prerogative of citizenship. If it were up to me, this would include voting and access to public education. The end result would be a robust exchange of labor between our two countries with the hope of creating a future common market. It would also check states and especially the federal government from becoming too socialistic, whereas increasing border security only incentivizes socialism.
In the end, we'd have a more secure border because most people would be coming through routinely, and our security apparatus could focus on those who are truly a security threat.
Bigun:
--- Quote from: massadvj on April 29, 2014, 02:47:25 pm ---I am probably alone in this thinking here on this site, but I think our existing laws are decidedly too anti-immigrant, and that has contributed to the problem. Now, now. Here me out.
If we go back to the 1950's and 60's when we didn't have a welfare state, and people could come and go as they pleased, there really was no problem. People came up to pick fruit or whatever, and when the work was done they went back. But then we made social welfare and unemployment available, so there was an economic incentive to just stay and do the seasonal work and collect unemployment the rest of the year. The increase in border security also became a deterrent to coming and going. It was easier to just move the family over once and be done with it.
The whole problem is caused by the economic divide between the US and Mexico. Increasing border security and keeping migrant workers out will only widen the gap between the two countries. We are both better off by allowing their workers in. We get cheap labor to produce more affordable products, and they get much needed capital to improve their economy. Free trade is always a win/win in the long run, and far better than erecting barriers, which only empowers government and special interest groups.
I propose that we loosen up our laws and let anyone in who is qualified and wants to work, but strictly enforce the law insofar as qualifying for public assistance and other benefits, which should be a prerogative of citizenship. If it were up to me, this would include voting and access to public education. The end result would be a robust exchange of labor between our two countries with the hope of creating a future common market. It would also check states and especially the federal government from becoming too socialistic, whereas increasing border security only incentivizes socialism.
--- End quote ---
IF we had a government that we could trust to "faithfully execute the laws" I would be more than willing to enter into a discussion of your ideas (some of them have REAL merit) but as things currently stand I'm not interested!
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