Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship

[DCPatriot]

As far as is necessary!

Bigun!  The "Hanging Judge" in the vein of Roy Bean.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean

[Dexter]

Oh, I'd get rid of the welfare state if I could, at least at the federal level.

Right, but I figured you kind of put that on low priority because it is unlikely that you could get the welfare state shut down. We need to take smaller and more realistic steps.

[massadvj]

I have a question for you (or anybody). If you grew up in and then had kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job, would you not risk border jumping into a more healthy country to improve your life and the lives of your kids? I can tell you without hesitation that I would, and I bet a lot of you would too. I understand that we need to have some control over our borders, and that tons of illegal aliens coming here is not necessarily a good thing, but I don't like the disdain some people seem to have for these people. They're just trying to live their lives and love/support their families.

I don't know about that, but I can tell you I grew up in California, and I now spend a good part of my year in Texas, and I think Mexican immigrants have added a whole bunch of value to the way of life in both of those areas.  By comparison, when I return to the northeast, it's like coming back to a prison in some respects.  Mexicans keep things spicy and they remind us there is more to life than just work, work, work.  But then, I have a lot of Spanish blood in me, so it could just be my DNA.  I know and have met many Anglos in Texas who feel very differently about it, even though they were saying what they were saying while munching tacos.

[Bigun]

Bigun!  The "Hanging Judge" in the vein of Roy Bean.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean

"Carlos Manuel Robles, you have been tried by twelve true and good men, not of your peers, but as high above you as heaven is of hell; and they said your guilty." "Time will pass and seasons will come and go; Spring with its wavin' green grass and heaps of sweet-smellin flowers on every hill and dale. Then will come sultry Summer, with her shimmerin' heat-waves on the baked horizon; and Fall with her yellow harvest-moon and the hills growin' brown and golden under a sinkin' Sun; and finally Winter, with its bitin', whinin' wind, and all the land will be mantled with snow. But you won't be here to, see any of 'em, Carlos Manuel Robles; not by a damn sight, because it's the order of this court that you be took to the nearest tree and hanged by the neck. The sheriff will ride off leaving you to dangle by the neck until you are dead, dead, dead you no good son-of-a-bitch!"

Signed: Judge Roy Bean- From "Vinegarroon", by Ruel McDaniel.

[Dexter]

I don't know about that, but I can tell you I grew up in California, and I now spend a good part of my year in Texas, and I think Mexican immigrants have added a whole bunch of value to the way of life in both of those areas.  By comparison, when I return to the northeast, it's like coming back to a prison in some respects.  Mexicans keep things spicy and they remind us there is more to life than just work, work, work.  But then, I have a lot of Spanish blood in me, so it could just be my DNA.  I know and have met many Anglos in Texas who feel very differently about it, even though they were saying what they were saying while munching tacos.

I think Republicans need to find a way to separate these people from the Democrats, at least somewhat. I think one of the big concerns of people on the right is their tendency to vote blue. If all of those illegals became legal and somehow managed to turn an important red state (Texas?) blue, it would be over for the Republicans.

[Bigun]

I have a question for you (or anybody). If you grew up in and then had kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job, would you not risk border jumping into a more healthy country to improve your life and the lives of your kids? I can tell you without hesitation that I would, and I bet a lot of you would too. I understand that we need to have some control over our borders, and that tons of illegal aliens coming here is not necessarily a good thing, but I don't like the disdain some people seem to have for these people. They're just trying to live their lives and love/support their families.

Having never faced that situation I don't KNOW what I would do but would like to think that I would do everything possible to make things better at home before considering running off violating the laws of other lands.

And BTW, Where do you get the idea that I have disdain for anyone? I do not!

[Dexter]

Having never faced that situation I don't KNOW what I would do but would like to think that I would do everything possible to make things better at home before considering running off violating the laws of other lands.

And BTW, Where do you get the idea that I have disdain for anyone? I do not!

I didn't necessarily mean you in particular, but a lot of people do dislike illegals with great intensity.

[Lando Lincoln]

Republicans of every stripe are confronted with a very challenging conundrum.  Because of various reasons, they have ceded or lost whole voting blocks.  The black vote will continue to vote heavily democrat for at least another generation.  There is labor, women, and the growing welfare state who also trend heavily to the democrats.  Government employees, the same.

Republicans are smart enough to understand demographics.  If they alienate the Latino vote en masse, they will be royally screwed.  Politically, they need to thread the needle - and it may be impossible.

[massadvj]

I think Republicans need to find a way to separate these people from the Democrats, at least somewhat. I think one of the big concerns of people on the right is their tendency to vote blue. If all of those illegals became legal and somehow managed to turn an important red state (Texas?) blue, it would be over for the Republicans.

There is no justification for granting them citizenship or voting rights.  They simply are not entitled to that, having come here against our laws, however ill-conceived those laws may have been.  They ARE entitled to stay and negotiate their labor if they wish since labor is property and property rights are inalienable.

Jefferson gave us an amazing, robust way of looking at government, if we would only abide by it.

[katzenjammer]

I think Republicans need to find a way to separate these people from the Democrats, at least somewhat. I think one of the big concerns of people on the right is their tendency to vote blue. If all of those illegals became legal and somehow managed to turn an important red state (Texas?) blue, it would be over for the Republicans.

That's the crux of it Dex.  This thread, and many others, are filled with wonderful ideas brought forth from people with very good intentions.  But the reality of the world that we live in has devolved far past any of this.  Aside from a handful of reps in the House, and perhaps a stray Senator here and there, no one in the political establishment currently on the national stage wants any of this!!  That is just our current reality.  And while this issue is certainly important and will continue to have drastic impacts on the health of this nation, it is far from the only area in which we have strayed far and wide as a nation.  Yes, the Democrats and their supporting organizations have very specific plans to turn many large purple states blue.  They will use every front available to them to accomplish it.

And aside from the citizens of this country that essentially no longer have representation in the national government, there is no one that wants to do a thing to stop it.  This march has been going on for a LONG time, and it has successfully stomped through our Institutions.  We are living through the beginning of the end games.  As sad as I am to say it, I think that the tide has turned long ago.

[massadvj]

Republicans of every stripe are confronted with a very challenging conundrum.  Because of various reasons, they have ceded or lost whole voting blocks.  The black vote will continue to vote heavily democrat for at least another generation.  There is labor, women, and the growing welfare state who also trend heavily to the democrats.  Government employees, the same.

Republicans are smart enough to understand demographics.  If they alienate the Latino vote en masse, they will be royally screwed.  Politically, they need to thread the needle - and it may be impossible.

If the GOP had any sense, they would know this issue is a wedge issue with Democrats, even more so than it is with Republicans.  Labor unions don't like migrant workers, but they look the other way because immigrants give them the red herring that makes unionization seem necessary to the working class.  They are kind of like doctors who poison the well of the town in order to ensure a steady stream of patients.

[happyg]

What do you all think of radical racist grour Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan (MEChA), one of the most anti-American groups in the U.S.? La Raza, and many of the offshoots do not want to assimilate, and are hate America. How about the city in Ca., that doesn't allow 'gringos', or didn't at one time? And then, there are the parades and rallies inundated with the Mexican flags, but no American flag.

Since we have been in existence, immigrants chose to assimilate, and even after struggles, the assimilations happened. With Mexico, it's a different story. Some want the southwest back for Mexico, as though that will help the Mexican economy. Too many of these radical groups are trying to bring us down to their level in much the same way as many Muslims.

I'm all for immigration, but not for people who hate us, and demand we change to meet their needs and wants.

[massadvj]

What do you all think of radical racist grour Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan (MEChA), one of the most anti-American groups in the U.S.? La Raza, and many of the offshoots do not want to assimilate, and are hate America. How about the city in Ca., that doesn't allow 'gringos', or didn't at one time? And then, there are the parades and rallies inundated with the Mexican flags, but no American flag.

Since we have been in existence, immigrants chose to assimilate, and even after struggles, the assimilations happened. With Mexico, it's a different story. Some want the southwest back for Mexico, as though that will help the Mexican economy. Too many of these radical groups are trying to bring us down to their level in much the same way as many Muslims.

I'm all for immigration, but not for people who hate us, and demand we change to meet their needs and wants.

I think the radicalization of the Mexican population is an outgrowth of socialism.  Socialism and closed borders fit together like peanut butter and chocolate.  The Soviet Union could not survive once it could no longer maintain an iron curtain.  American conservatives should understand that better than anyone.

[Howie66]

Sorry, Howie.

Have no problem with calling for no amnesty per se, but you go off the rails generalizing that these aren't good law-abiding people once they're here.

When I see an unfashionably dressed woman holding bags of groceries with 3 little munchkins walking behind her in clothes too big....I see one those kids as my mother.

'She' knows nothing about Sicily...she can understand but not speak fluent Italian...and she was brought here by my grandmother.  Her great granddaughter is Princeton-Yale.

How can 'you' demand respect for our laws when the existing ones haven't been enforced....when our own Justice Department publicly says they're not going to enforce laws?

Looks from here that people who religiously follow laws are more like subjects today than free men.

So how do you square that, DC? The very FIRST action in sneaking into our country is a violation of law. That is followed up with subsequent violations of any number of laws in order to avoid being held to account for the first violation.

I don't know about you, but that pattern is not one that leads me to believe that the perpetrator is one that I would trust or want to be my neighbor.

[Howie66]

That's the bottom line with immigration - and firearms, for that matter. We already have plenty of laws, probably more than we need. Why does this congress insist on passing new ones? There is a pathway to citizenship, and immigrants have been following it for many years.

Nailed it! 

[Howie66]

Quote from: Bigun on Today at 10:40:27 AM

    There is a LOT more to this than that! Number one of which is what message are we sending to people all over the world who are patiently standing in line trying to get in this country the RIGHT way?

Exactly.  It doesn't matter a hoot whether or not they are "good people" or "bad people."  ALL people that wish to legally immigrate into a nation must follow the laws that the nation has established.  And it is the sworn duty of the nation's government to enforce the laws and keep the borders secure.  This is one of the most basic and fundamental duties of said government.

You are both correct!

When one demonstrates their contempt for our laws with their very first act upon entering our country, they should immediately forfeit the privilege[/i] of being here in the first place. Nobody has the right to be here, other than by birth or by following the established legal procedures for entry.

[Howie66]

As far as is necessary!

 

[Howie66]

I have a question for you (or anybody). If you grew up in and then had kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job, would you not risk border jumping into a more healthy country to improve your life and the lives of your kids? I can tell you without hesitation that I would, and I bet a lot of you would too. I understand that we need to have some control over our borders, and that tons of illegal aliens coming here is not necessarily a good thing, but I don't like the disdain some people seem to have for these people. They're just trying to live their lives and love/support their families.

I believe that we would need to take the responsibility to square away our own country before jumping a border to invade someone else's country, first.

[massadvj]

Nobody has the right to be here, other than by birth or by following the established legal procedures for entry.

Would you maintain the same position for someone who had purchased a handgun to defend himself in the face of laws that prevented it?  Aren't certain rights inalienable, and therefore morally out of bounds for government to restrict?  Don't property rights fit into that category?  Isn't a man's labor his property?

[Howie66]

I didn't necessarily mean you in particular, but a lot of people do dislike illegals with great intensity.

I only dislike people that believe that they are above the law and that they are entitled to the fruits of someone else's labor and sacrifice, just because they want it.

[Howie66]

Republicans of every stripe are confronted with a very challenging conundrum.  Because of various reasons, they have ceded or lost whole voting blocks.  The black vote will continue to vote heavily democrat for at least another generation.  There is labor, women, and the growing welfare state who also trend heavily to the democrats.  Government employees, the same.

Republicans are smart enough to understand demographics.  If they alienate the Latino vote en masse, they will be royally screwed.  Politically, they need to thread the needle - and it may be impossible.

The GOP Establishment had better concentrate on not alienating the legitimate American Voter.

[Lando Lincoln]

The GOP Establishment had better concentrate on not alienating the legitimate American Voter.

Hence, the (political) problem.

[Howie66]

What do you all think of radical racist grour Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan (MEChA), one of the most anti-American groups in the U.S.? La Raza, and many of the offshoots do not want to assimilate, and are hate America. How about the city in Ca., that doesn't allow 'gringos', or didn't at one time? And then, there are the parades and rallies inundated with the Mexican flags, but no American flag.

Since we have been in existence, immigrants chose to assimilate, and even after struggles, the assimilations happened. With Mexico, it's a different story. Some want the southwest back for Mexico, as though that will help the Mexican economy. Too many of these radical groups are trying to bring us down to their level in much the same way as many Muslims.

I'm all for immigration, but not for people who hate us, and demand we change to meet their needs and wants.

Well stated!   

[Howie66]

I think the radicalization of the Mexican population is an outgrowth of socialism.  Socialism and closed borders fit together like peanut butter and chocolate.  The Soviet Union could not survive once it could no longer maintain an iron curtain.  American conservatives should understand that better than anyone.

The Soviets built their walls to keep their people from leaving.

The Mexican government is dumping their unwanted (illiterate and criminal) population on us. I don't know about you, but I find this to be unacceptable.

[Howie66]

Would you maintain the same position for someone who had purchased a handgun to defend himself in the face of laws that prevented it?  Aren't certain rights inalienable, and therefore morally out of bounds for government to restrict?  Don't property rights fit into that category?  Isn't a man's labor his property?

Keep in mind that with Rights comes Responsibility.

No Amnesty.

Period.