Author Topic: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship  (Read 25655 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,100
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2014, 11:36:06 pm »
LOL!  I absolutely love you guys!     :beer: 
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline MACVSOG68

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,792
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2014, 11:46:14 pm »
Oh no you didn't!

Tell me that you didn't go there.

Heh, heh.  Sometimes I'm just damned ornery.   :jail:  Okay, so where were we...oh yeah...border breakers couldn't possibly be good citizens. 
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Lando Lincoln

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,530
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #102 on: May 06, 2014, 12:29:34 am »
LOL!  I absolutely love you guys!     :beer:

It has been fun lately.  Good discussions... some disagreements here and there but no real acrimony.  I swear Luis has attended a higher academic institution in France learning the art of debate.  MAC is back!  Andy is his awesome self...  That leaves you and me DCP to have a few beers and admire it all.
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline MACVSOG68

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,792
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #103 on: May 06, 2014, 12:45:12 am »
It has been fun lately.  Good discussions... some disagreements here and there but no real acrimony.  I swear Luis has attended a higher academic institution in France learning the art of debate.  MAC is back!  Andy is his awesome self...  That leaves you and me DCP to have a few beers and admire it all.

Oh sure...like you two don't add immensely to the debates?   :wry:
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Lando Lincoln

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,530
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2014, 12:47:24 am »
Oh sure...like you two don't add immensely to the debates?   :wry:

Can we still have that beer?
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline MACVSOG68

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,792
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #105 on: May 06, 2014, 12:50:31 am »
Can we still have that beer?

Only if Luis and I are invited.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,100
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #106 on: May 06, 2014, 12:51:49 am »
Oh sure...like you two don't add immensely to the debates?   :wry:

LOL!  Just happy be associated with such good men!    :beer:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Lando Lincoln

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,530
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2014, 12:55:43 am »
At the risk of derailing this thread completely, how about me bringing a few of these along?

There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline Fishrrman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,638
  • Gender: Male
  • Dumbest member of the forum
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2014, 01:02:18 am »
MAC wrote above:
[[ I dunno, ask the Indians, lol. ]]

At least the Indians understood what was happening to their way of life with their innundation by the white man, and many fought valiantly in an effort to preserve it.

I'm happy the White Man won -- but I respect the Indians for at least trying.

What confounds me -- as I believe it will confound future historians hundreds of years in the future -- is that faced with a similar challenge to their culture AND their land, the Euros are refusing to defend same. Not only here in America, but anywhere there are whites -- when faced with cultural and demographic assaults, they.... give in. Sometimes, without much more than a hint of a struggle.

The Indians had an inferior culture and they were defeated as such. They had the will, but not the wherewithal.

Western whites have the superior culture and the instrumentalities to defend and protect it, yet we are being overthrown by those who are our "lessers".

Not because we couldn't win, but because we no longer want to.

Why...??

Offline MACVSOG68

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,792
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #109 on: May 06, 2014, 02:06:46 am »
Quote
Western whites have the superior culture and the instrumentalities to defend and protect it, yet we are being overthrown by those who are our "lessers".

Sigh...
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline MACVSOG68

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,792
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #110 on: May 06, 2014, 02:10:06 am »
LOL!  Just happy be associated with such good men!    :beer:

Sure be nice if we could all get together for a brew one of these days.  :salute:
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #111 on: May 06, 2014, 02:35:37 am »
MAC wrote above:
[[ I dunno, ask the Indians, lol. ]]

At least the Indians understood what was happening to their way of life with their innundation by the white man, and many fought valiantly in an effort to preserve it.

I'm happy the White Man won -- but I respect the Indians for at least trying.

What confounds me -- as I believe it will confound future historians hundreds of years in the future -- is that faced with a similar challenge to their culture AND their land, the Euros are refusing to defend same. Not only here in America, but anywhere there are whites -- when faced with cultural and demographic assaults, they.... give in. Sometimes, without much more than a hint of a struggle.

The Indians had an inferior culture and they were defeated as such. They had the will, but not the wherewithal.

Western whites have the superior culture and the instrumentalities to defend and protect it, yet we are being overthrown by those who are our "lessers".

Not because we couldn't win, but because we no longer want to.

Why...??

Maybe it's just perspective, you may be just looking at the whole thing from the wrong angle.

Maybe "whites" kicked ass when the fight was about guns and cannons vs. arrows and spears, but as the playing field leveled out, they weren't so tough any more.

It's not that they aren't fighting. They're just losing.

Here's a prediction, one that I would never actually verbalize but one that I feel that your post merits.

"White man" will fade, then disappear.

You can only make a white man by way of two whites mating, every single other combination, including a white and any "color" other than white, isn't white, an any descendant of any combination of a white and a non-white, won't be white so you can't recapture that lost strain ever again.

Enjoy the ride while it lasts.

And thanks for all the fish. 

P.S. About those future historians.

They won't be white.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 02:40:44 am by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #112 on: May 06, 2014, 02:44:09 am »
Can we still have that beer?

Yes!

I have just the place too.

It's a customer of mine down Miami way.

The place is called Tootsie's Cabaret.

It's a 74,000 square foot gentleman's club.

Great wings!

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #113 on: May 06, 2014, 02:54:24 am »
All I know is my church is making a huge push for granting amnesty for illegal aliens here in the United States and its a very conservative church.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #114 on: May 06, 2014, 02:58:40 am »
All I know is my church is making a huge push for granting amnesty for illegal aliens here in the United States and its a very conservative church.

They've had amnesty the entire time that the debate over whether or not to grant them amnesty has been raging.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2014, 03:50:41 am »
They've had amnesty the entire time that the debate over whether or not to grant them amnesty has been raging.

President Uchtdorf has been pursing this extremely hard in the last couple months even going to the White House. He even met with Obama and the Congressional leadership to get this done by the end of the summer.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 04:01:12 am by SPQR »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2014, 03:55:35 am »
It has been fun lately.  Good discussions... some disagreements here and there but no real acrimony.  I swear Luis has attended a higher academic institution in France learning the art of debate.  MAC is back!  Andy is his awesome self...  That leaves you and me DCP to have a few beers and admire it all.

France?

FRANCE?

The Spanish taught the French how to write in complete sentences.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline evadR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,190
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2014, 04:28:26 am »
Outright violation of the 14th amendment.

I'm curious... how so?

Blanket amnesty is a violation of the Equal Protection Clause. The same rationale applied to the voting process  in Bush v Gore in 2000.
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2014, 04:32:02 am »
Outright violation of the 14th amendment.

I'm curious... how so?

Blanket amnesty is a violation of the Equal Protection Clause.

The leadership has made a decision on this issue and there must be a purpose of making that decision. I think it was a wise decision. There are LDS members in Mexico because they helped settle what is now Salt Lake City and its the fastest growing church there.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 04:42:29 am by SPQR »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #119 on: May 06, 2014, 05:05:48 am »
Outright violation of the 14th amendment.

I'm curious... how so?

Blanket amnesty is a violation of the Equal Protection Clause. The same rationale applied to the voting process  in Bush v Gore in 2000.

How does blanket amnesty deny any person qualifying for amnesty the equal protection of the law?

It doesn't apply to anyone but those receiving the amnesty, and doesn't treat anyone who falls under the category and qualifies for amnesty differently than anyone else.

If there was a different standard used for different persons in the country illegally, then there would be an issue, but that wouldn't be the case since "blanket amnesty" literally translates into everyone that needs amnesty, within the restrictions (criminal activity, etc) would get it.

Persons in the country legally would not have their rights under the EPC violated because their legal status wouldn't be the same as those here illegally.

If we were to issue a "blanket amnesty" for Spanish-speaking immigrants only, then I can see where there could be an issue with the EPC.

In Bush v Gore the argument was that the same citizens (voters) would be treated different in different counties because the standards for counting differed from county to county.

That's a whole different thing. 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 06:12:56 am by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Lando Lincoln

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,530
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2014, 11:09:16 am »
France?

FRANCE?

The Spanish taught the French how to write in complete sentences.

True enough, I suppose.  I had the pleasure of working for a French-owned company for some years.  I will say I had the most remarkable boss ever while working there.  I chose to leave when an Italian company acquired them.  Anyway, all the French guys had classes in the art of argument "while at University" (their speak).
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline Fishrrman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,638
  • Gender: Male
  • Dumbest member of the forum
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #121 on: May 06, 2014, 02:48:13 pm »
Luis wrote:
[[ P.S. About those future historians.
They won't be white. ]]

Of course not.
But they won't be Hispanic, either.

They'll be Asian.

Offline evadR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,190
  • Gender: Male
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #122 on: May 06, 2014, 04:03:43 pm »
How does blanket amnesty deny any person qualifying for amnesty the equal protection of the law?

It doesn't apply to anyone but those receiving the amnesty, and doesn't treat anyone who falls under the category and qualifies for amnesty differently than anyone else.

If there was a different standard used for different persons in the country illegally, then there would be an issue, but that wouldn't be the case since "blanket amnesty" literally translates into everyone that needs amnesty, within the restrictions (criminal activity, etc) would get it.

Persons in the country legally would not have their rights under the EPC violated because their legal status wouldn't be the same as those here illegally.

If we were to issue a "blanket amnesty" for Spanish-speaking immigrants only, then I can see where there could be an issue with the EPC.

In Bush v Gore the argument was that the same citizens (voters) would be treated different in different counties because the standards for counting differed from county to county.

That's a whole different thing.

So, to make sure we're talking about the same thing, I'm talking about amnesty to illegals. The estimated number of illegals runs from 10 million to 20 million, depending on what expert you talk to.

Now, to answer the question you have posed, ask yourself "how does it affect the value of my dollar when the Fed dumps billions of dollars into the economy via Quantatative Easing and all their other tricks? If you can answer that question, then you should be able to extrapolate to the question "how does it affect my citizenship when the government dumps millions of illegals into the legal population base?".

Like I said, a clear violation of the Equal Protection intent of the 14th amendment.  My citizenship is being devalued, illegally.

I know none of this will keep them doing what they are hell bent on doing, but, might as well go down fighting.
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #123 on: May 06, 2014, 04:38:32 pm »
So, to make sure we're talking about the same thing, I'm talking about amnesty to illegals. The estimated number of illegals runs from 10 million to 20 million, depending on what expert you talk to.

Now, to answer the question you have posed, ask yourself "how does it affect the value of my dollar when the Fed dumps billions of dollars into the economy via Quantatative Easing and all their other tricks? If you can answer that question, then you should be able to extrapolate to the question "how does it affect my citizenship when the government dumps millions of illegals into the legal population base?".

Like I said, a clear violation of the Equal Protection intent of the 14th amendment.  My citizenship is being devalued, illegally.

I know none of this will keep them doing what they are hell bent on doing, but, might as well go down fighting.

"... my citizenship is being devalued..."

That's a novel concept.

Having more money in circulation does devalue the worth of your money because it devalues the worth of all money, you're correct there.

However the notion that having more people enjoying the same rights that you enjoy somehow devalues those rights makes no sense to me.

Your (our) citizenship is made up of a certain set of inalienable rights that are recognized by some governments and not by others.

In general, if there is a value assigned to our citizenship it would mean that American citizenship has a higher value than let's say North Korean citizenship because the government of North Korea does not protect those inalienable rights.

Now, unlike the dollar whose value is determined on a finite set of values, our rights are infinite; as Americans we believe that all human beings are born possessing those rights.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

We're all born with those rights, irrespective of where we are born. Being an American means that those rights will be safeguarded and protected from violation.

If your argument that citizenship can actually be devalued by any means, then our citizenship today is worth just about a third of what it was worth in 1910, since there are about three times as many citizens today as there were then, and 99.1% less than it was at the time that our Constitution was drafted. Yet you don't have 0.009% of the rights that the American citizens of 1780 enjoyed.

That's simply not the case.  You have the very same rights they did, in fact the number of constitutionally guaranteed rights have increased since then when you take things like the Emancipation Declaration, women's suffrage, the Civil Rights Act and others into consideration.

I get your frustration, but your XIV Amendment argument doesn't work for me.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #124 on: May 06, 2014, 04:39:16 pm »
Luis wrote:
[[ P.S. About those future historians.
They won't be white. ]]

Of course not.
But they won't be Hispanic, either.

They'll be Asian.

I'm not the one worried about what they're going to be.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx