Sarah Palin: ‘Waterboarding is how we’d baptize terrorists’ in her administration

[Luis Gonzalez]

I grew up! Became a man!

So what you're saying is that Dex4974 is not a man since he argues that he considers waterboarding to be torture because he was waterboarded?

[Bigun]

Thinking something is happening and that thing actually happening are NOT the same Luis and YOU damned well know it!

[mystery-ak]

So what you're saying is that Dex4974 is not a man since he argues that he considers waterboarding to be torture because he was waterboarded?

What is this a cross examination...he has answered your question, give it a rest already...sheeesh!

[EC]

What brought you to the realization that it is not torture? What changed from when you thought it was torture while it was being done to you?

I can't answer for my brother, nor would I. However - being boarded in training does not compare in the slightest to having to type with a functional right hand and the middle finger on my left. I am left handed. It gets annoying.

Nor does it compare to Raine - who actually lost two fingers. Snipped off one joint at a time, with the cuts dipped in boiling hot tar to seal them. Or one of my very loved colleagues - who was raped to death. She bled out on extract. I could go on.

[Bigun]

What is this a cross examination...he has answered your question, give it a rest already...sheeesh!

It's called badgering the witness and you would make a very good judge!

[Luis Gonzalez]

What is this a cross examination...he has answered your question, give it a rest already...sheeesh!

It is a heated debate.

It is what goes on in forums like this.

[Luis Gonzalez]

It's called badgering the witness and you would make a very good judge!

Tell you what. I'll quit mincing words and cut to the core.

It is massive hypocrisy to think that it was torture when it was done to you then argue that it isn't when it's done to others. It is reacting to the need to safeguard a moral high ground while running down the lowest available road, by changing the morality of what constitutes torture to the degree that you are willing to ignore what your own mind told you was happening to you while it was happening to you.

You do all that so that you can think that your morals haven't been debased.

They have.

[EC]

Tell you what. I'll quit mincing words and cut to the core.

It is massive hypocrisy to think that it was torture when it was done to you then argue that it isn't when it's done to others. It is reacting to the need to safeguard a moral high ground while running down the lowest available road, by changing the morality of what constitutes torture to the degree that you are willing to ignore what your own mind told you was happening to you while it was happening to you.

You do all that so that you can think that your morals haven't been debased.

They have.

Luis. You think we who HAVE to do it don't feel the same pain you do?

Leave us our illusions. Please. They are the only damn thing that lets us sleep.

[Bigun]

Tell you what. I'll quit mincing words and cut to the core.

It is massive hypocrisy to think that it was torture when it was done to you then argue that it isn't when it's done to others. It is reacting to the need to safeguard a moral high ground while running down the lowest available road, by changing the morality of what constitutes torture to the degree that you are willing to ignore what your own mind told you was happening to you while it was happening to you.

You do all that so that you can think that your morals haven't been debased.

They have.

You can call it anything you want Luis! But you calling it something doesn't make it so! Just like your idea of what the law says does not make it the law.

[DCPatriot]

Getting back on topic.....Sarah Palin's controversial populist comment is certainly going to have a positive impact on political party strategies IF there is any high level terrorist attack on American soil or overseas assets.

The People are getting fed up with these milquetoast pajama boys and their lesbian shields.


.....uh...maybe it's not the topic, but it's better than beating somebody bloody over the head.   

[Luis Gonzalez]

.....uh...maybe it's not the topic, but it's better than beating somebody bloody over the head.   

I call it enhanced debating techniques.

[DCPatriot]

I call it enhanced debating techniques.

 

[EC]

I call it enhanced debating techniques.

I call it being an bleep.

I mean - really? There are at least 4 people here who have had to do the enhanced interrogation thing. No choice. Part of the bleep job. Go break 5 people then come back and dictate. Otherwise, shut the bleep up.

[R4 TrumPence]

I call it enhanced debating techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV2lWUfROzY

[Luis Gonzalez]

I call it being an bleep.

Then I am in the right place, aren't I?

[Luis Gonzalez]

I call it being an bleep.

I mean - really? There are at least 4 people here who have had to do the enhanced interrogation thing. No choice. Part of the bleeping job. Go break 5 people then come back and dictate. Otherwise, shut the bleep up.

BTW... I do not question the fact that I can be an bleep because I know that I can be one, and being called one doesn't really bother me., but I'm no different than anyone else in this forum (or any forum) who digs in on positions and opinions that they hold strongly.

[EC]

BTW... I do not question the fact that I can be an bleep because I know that I can be one, and being called one doesn't really bother me., but I'm no different than anyone else in this forum (or any forum) who digs in on positions and opinions that they hold strongly.

Nope - and it is your right to do so.

Just - it hurts a wee bit to be reminded. OK?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Nope - and it is your right to do so.

Just - it hurts a wee bit to be reminded. OK?

[Lando Lincoln]

Wow, I missed a lot.  I do not care to revisit specifics of the back and forth of the thread but I'd like to offer my final two cents.  It is offered with respect and humility and I hate it that some here have had horrors visited upon them by others.  It is, as EC has said in various ways, the way it is - despite being horrific.  I will also be presumptuous in suggesting that I think I know where Luis has been coming from so this may speak for him as well.  If not, I'm sure Luis will tell me.

I have no illusions that there are not worse, far worse methods than waterboarding to inflict on another human being for the purposes of extracting information.  And, I have come to understand that some here may have experienced or seen some of those horrors.  I also intuitively, instinctively and intellectually know that there are yet worse experiences.  One can shock themselves in imagining the reality of that.  Some methods, as observed earlier, may not require physical maiming of the body.  Systematic executions of others, or loved ones, is one such method.

So... are we talking about a matter of degree?  What is the bottom rung of the spectrum?  Do we say to the soldier who may have given up intelligence resulting in deaths of others through waterboarding that... it... wasn't ... real... torture?  Would a grieving family be told such a thing?  "Mr. and Mrs. Smith, your son gave his life, but before he did, he gave up crucial info that resulted in the deaths of his fellow soldiers.  And it was only through waterboarding, which isn't real torture."  I think not. 

From the beginning of this narrative, I have said we are trying to define a word.  What we are debating, are examples of it.  I will tell you, I hold that the act of waterboarding is on the torture spectrum.  Otherwise, it would not be effective.  It causes sufficient trauma to change a person's most steadfast heart.  It makes the toughest among us who would otherwise say they would never surrender sensitive information that would result in the deaths of your brothers in arms - relent.  Again, are there more severe, more expedient methods?  Of course.  Absolutely.

So... definitions.  For me, waterboarding is indeed on the torture spectrum.  Undeniably so.  Does it bother me that I believe that?  No.  As I said, I support the employment of the technique in some instances.  But, I won't deny what it is.

I submit this with humility to those of you who served.

----------

Now, back to Sarah Palin.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Wow, I missed a lot.  I do not care to revisit specifics of the back and forth of the thread but I'd like to offer my final two cents.  It is offered with respect and humility and I hate it that some here have had horrors visited upon them by others.  It is, as EC has said in various ways, the way it is - despite being horrific.  I will also be presumptuous in suggesting that I think I know where Luis has been coming from so this may speak for him as well.  If not, I'm sure Luis will tell me.

I have no illusions that there are not worse, far worse methods than waterboarding to inflict on another human being for the purposes of extracting information.  And, I have come to understand that some here may have experienced or seen some of those horrors.  I also intuitively, instinctively and intellectually know that there are yet worse experiences.  One can shock themselves in imagining the reality of that.  Some methods, as observed earlier, may not require physical maiming of the body.  Systematic executions of others, or loved ones, is one such method.

So... are we talking about a matter of degree?  What is the bottom rung of the spectrum?  Do we say to the soldier who may have given up intelligence resulting in deaths of others through waterboarding that... it... wasn't ... real... torture?  Would a grieving family be told such a thing?  "Mr. and Mrs. Smith, your son gave his life, but before he did, he gave up crucial info that resulted in the deaths of his fellow soldiers.  And it was only through waterboarding, which isn't real torture."  I think not. 

From the beginning of this narrative, I have said we are trying to define a word.  What we are debating, are examples of it.  I will tell you, I hold that the act of waterboarding is on the torture spectrum.  Otherwise, it would not be effective.  It causes sufficient trauma to change a person's most steadfast heart.  It makes the toughest among us who would otherwise say they would never surrender sensitive information that would result in the deaths of your brothers in arms - relent.  Again, are there more severe, more expedient methods?  Of course.  Absolutely.

So... definitions.  For me, waterboarding is indeed on the torture spectrum.  Undeniably so.  Does it bother me that I believe that?  No.  As I said, I support the employment of the technique in some instances.  But, I won't deny what it is.

I submit this with humility to those of you who served.

----------

Now, back to Sarah Palin.

[EC]

Wow, I missed a lot.  I do not care to revisit specifics of the back and forth of the thread but I'd like to offer my final two cents.  It is offered with respect and humility and I hate it that some here have had horrors visited upon them by others.  It is, as EC has said in various ways, the way it is - despite being horrific.  I will also be presumptuous in suggesting that I think I know where Luis has been coming from so this may speak for him as well.  If not, I'm sure Luis will tell me.

I have no illusions that there are not worse, far worse methods than waterboarding to inflict on another human being for the purposes of extracting information.  And, I have come to understand that some here may have experienced or seen some of those horrors.  I also intuitively, instinctively and intellectually know that there are yet worse experiences.  One can shock themselves in imagining the reality of that.  Some methods, as observed earlier, may not require physical maiming of the body.  Systematic executions of others, or loved ones, is one such method.

So... are we talking about a matter of degree?  What is the bottom rung of the spectrum?  Do we say to the soldier who may have given up intelligence resulting in deaths of others through waterboarding that... it... wasn't ... real... torture?  Would a grieving family be told such a thing?  "Mr. and Mrs. Smith, your son gave his life, but before he did, he gave up crucial info that resulted in the deaths of his fellow soldiers.  And it was only through waterboarding, which isn't real torture."  I think not. 

From the beginning of this narrative, I have said we are trying to define a word.  What we are debating, are examples of it.  I will tell you, I hold that the act of waterboarding is on the torture spectrum.  Otherwise, it would not be effective.  It causes sufficient trauma to change a person's most steadfast heart.  It makes the toughest among us who would otherwise say they would never surrender sensitive information that would result in the deaths of your brothers in arms - relent.  Again, are there more severe, more expedient methods?  Of course.  Absolutely.

So... definitions.  For me, waterboarding is indeed on the torture spectrum.  Undeniably so.  Does it bother me that I believe that?  No.  As I said, I support the employment of the technique in some instances.  But, I won't deny what it is.

I submit this with humility to those of you who served.

----------

Now, back to Sarah Palin.

My friend. We have a two word explanation of everything.

"Whatever works."

Ain't pretty, leaves zero wiggle room in terms of morals - but it is effective.

[Lando Lincoln]

To my bleep buddies:

[DCPatriot]

Excellent post, Lando!

Proud to be your friend!   

[Lando Lincoln]

Excellent post, Lando!

Proud to be your friend!   

Likewise friend.  Thank you.

[Luis Gonzalez]

To my bleep buddies:

Proud to be one of them.

If we're going to do this, let's do it right.