Author Topic: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States  (Read 4597 times)

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Offline Bigun

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2014, 04:30:18 pm »
straight back atcha.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, of which you have produced none.

Anyone who believe that Communism fell with the Soviet Union is drinking WAY too much kool-aid! And the proof is all around you!

In Venezuela, The Philippines, Nicaragua, Cuba, Indonesia, All over Africa, Cambodia, Laos, and the good ole USA!

« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 04:46:31 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2014, 04:31:32 pm »
Anyone who believe that Communism fell with the Soviet Union is drinking WAY too much kool-aid!


Thanks for that lovely personal attack. 

Offline Bigun

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2014, 04:34:28 pm »
Thanks for that lovely personal attack.

Nothing personal about it what-so-ever!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline olde north church

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2014, 04:34:47 pm »
Just because your freedom of action is not totally unrestrained does not render "freedom" illusory.  In an earlier age you, I, and everyone else here would have played serf to those few whom you say live so far above us; serfs had precious little freedom compared to the freedom you enjoy.  In days of yore, serfs were regarded as, and legally were, possessions that went with the land they toiled on, as much a part of that land as the cabinetry is of today's houses.  Today, we ordinary mortals possess land; the land does not possess us.

In fact, you probably enjoy greater freedom than did many minor nobles in the middle ages; consider the amount of power available to you for a few thousand dollars:  you can purchase the means to travel several thousand miles in a few days, from the east coast to the west; you can even purchase the means to fly halfway 'round the world in less than 24 hours - making a mockery of that gent who traveled 'round the world in 80 days.  And consider the quantity and quality of food available to you for a relative pittance; not even the nobility of old ate so well as you.  And consider the state of your health; notwithstanding the current attempt to control your health care, your health, and that of most of us, far surpasses that of even most nobles of old.

Yes, days of yore.  Today, we have lost a lot of freedom.  Can you legally open a bank account with a foreign bank?  Not any more you can't.  Try lighting a cigarette in a "private" business, like a bar.  Unpasteurized milk?  No, not commercially.
10,000 other laws on the books you didn't even realize that make you a felon three times a day.
It's an illusion.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Gazoo

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2014, 05:09:43 pm »
Bah.  It won't fall to communism, it'll fall - to adopt your term - to European, specifically French, style socialism.  Communism as such no longer exists as a dominant force anywhere, other than, perhaps, Cuba.  The North Koreans aren't communists, they're Pol-Pot style dictators and tyrants.  The Chinese are communist in name only, having evolved into more or less a hard left corporativist socialism.  And should that fall take place it will, in fact, make other places more safe, not less safe, because part and parcel of that fall will be a reduction in the ability of the US to coerce other nations, economically or militarily, to toe the political line favored by the US (which would at that point be Euro-socialism).




The New Communism (as linked below) derives from communism. You say the Chinese are communist in name only. Well America has a Caucus (as linked below) that has derived from communism principles.

http://www.marxist.com/fascism-and-democratic-slogans.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Communist_Movement#Current_organizations_descended_from_NCM

http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/

http://www.pdamerica.org/about-pda/history



To say America is Euro-Socialists, leaves out the black theologian theology, race-baiting, the new communism party of the new black panthers, as well as the communist progressive portion of the unions/GM-Government Motors and the government.

So Obama is a marxist fascist, euro socialist, new communist party,progressive, radical black theologian, race-baiting, divisive, peter pan, long legged mack daddy. So Bigun is just cutting to the chase and saying, Communist.
"The Tea Party has a right to feel cheated.

When does the Republican Party, put in the majority by the Tea Party, plan to honor its commitment to halt the growth of the Federal monolith and bring the budget back into balance"?

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2014, 05:24:08 pm »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2014, 05:30:22 pm »
Wish we had our own 'George Soros'....to fund national video spots or even major motion pictures that illustrate what that cartoon does so perfectly.

I mean if they can make a politically correct "Noah", why can't Clint Eastwood and Mel Gibson corroborate on films that explain exactly WTF if happening to us?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 05:31:02 pm by DCPatriot »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2014, 06:11:27 pm »
There is only one "ism"... totalitarianism, which itself is a name for the more basic concept of all governance, authoritarianism. Every other "ism" is a variance of that one "ism" developed to address the specific time and place where it's being applied.

Whether it's Soviet-style communism, Italian fascism, Euro socialism, Islamic theologism, British imperialism, Medieval monarchism, or Louis XIV mercantilism, it all boils down to the idea that the few (or the one) is best suited to decide for the many. It is a concentration of power.

The basic idea of the American experiment was the decentralization of that power. We have centralized power again, and are in fact back at that place that we broke away from back in 1776.

We are not going to "fall" to communism, but we are going to evolve into some sort of "ism" that is unique to us but still a form of authoritarianism. It can't be communism because we have been conditioned for decades to recoil at the very mention of the word. The idea of communism generates unalterable visions of brutality and oppression in our minds that will, in and of themselves, defeat any possible implementation of such a system. Socialism has very much the same baggage, so that won' work either, and even as we KNOW that Obama is a Socialist, even Socialists recoil from labeling him as such, because of the negative connotations that the terms carries with it. Proponents of authoritarianism can't sell failed systems to nations. They'll just invent a new "ism" for our time and our nation.

I call it Socialist Managerialism, or Managerial Socialism... take your pick.

There's one important thing to keep in mind about all this. The leaders of all these "ism" movements seldom (if ever) actually believe in the ideals they promote.

Here's an excerpt from an old American Thinker article that mentions one of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's less-known works, "Lenin in Zurich" (fiction):

Quote
What is socialism, whether Bolshevik, Menshevik, national, Maoist, social democrat, liberal, or whatever flavor you can name?  A set of economic principles?  Political values?  An attitude?  Don't head off to a dictionary or Google-land for this.

I commend to you Solzhenitsyn's "Lenin In Zurich", a book I read years ago.  It is fiction, yet invaluable to the understanding of the last century, and the next.  I am about to share with you a secret known to few: Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Deng, Pol Pot, Castro, and Solzhenitsyn himself.  And me.  And now you.

Socialism does not exist except in the imagination of the true believer and the useful idiot.  None of the names I listed believed there was such a thing as socialism.  They knew it for what it was:  a means of fooling mass numbers of people into following them, and thus achieving power.  Political power.  Military power.  Economic power.  Absolute power.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/the_secret_of_socialism.html#ixzz2uGRfc6HC
 
We'll get our own, unique "ism".
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2014, 06:17:41 pm »
There is only one "ism"... totalitarianism, which itself is a name for the more basic concept of all governance, authoritarianism. Every other "ism" is a variance of that one "ism" developed to address the specific time and place where it's being applied.

Whether it's Soviet-style communism, Italian fascism, Euro socialism, Islamic theologism, British imperialism, Medieval monarchism, or Louis XIV mercantilism, it all boils down to the idea that the few (or the one) is best suited to decide for the many. It is a concentration of power.

The basic idea of the American experiment was the decentralization of that power. We have centralized power again, and are in fact back at that place that we broke away from back in 1776.

We are not going to "fall" to communism, but we are going to evolve into some sort of "ism" that is unique to us but still a form of authoritarianism. It can't be communism because we have been conditioned for decades to recoil at the very mention of the word. The idea of communism generates unalterable visions of brutality and oppression in our minds that will, in and of themselves, defeat any possible implementation of such a system. Socialism has very much the same baggage, so that won' work either, and even as we KNOW that Obama is a Socialist, even Socialists recoil from labeling him as such, because of the negative connotations that the terms carries with it. Proponents of authoritarianism can't sell failed systems to nations. They'll just invent a new "ism" for our time and our nation.

I call it Socialist Managerialism, or Managerial Socialism... take your pick.

There's one important thing to keep in mind about all this. The leaders of all these "ism" movements seldom (if ever) actually believe in the ideals they promote.

Here's an excerpt from an old American Thinker article that mentions one of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's less-known works, "Lenin in Zurich" (fiction):
 
We'll get our own, unique "ism".

 goopo

Excellent!!  Yes, they are all a flavor of Authoritarianism.  And unfortunately, in this country we have many Authoritarians from 'both' sides of the aisle.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2014, 06:23:43 pm »
Quote
We'll get our own, unique "ism".

Already have a long time ago! It's called Mercantilism!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2014, 06:35:17 pm »
Already have a long time ago! It's called Mercantilism!

Mercantilism died in the 18th century.

The central idea of Mercantilism was that "maximising net exports is the best route to national prosperity", along with the accumulation of bullion, or "bullionism", the idea that if one nation had more bullion than the other, it was better off.

We import more than we export, and while we still hold more bullion than any other country, Mercantilism requires that both sides of the equation be observed.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 06:48:48 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2014, 06:37:03 pm »
Mercantilism died in the 18th century.

Yeah! Right! Just like Communism died with the fall of the Soviet Union!

GEEEZE Louis!
 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 06:38:51 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2014, 06:46:06 pm »
Yeah! Right! Just like Communism died with the fall of the Soviet Union!

GEEEZE Louis!

I just edited my post. You may want to read it again, as well as the article that I quoted:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/08/economic-history
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2014, 06:48:07 pm »
Yeah! Right! Just like Communism died with the fall of the Soviet Union!

GEEEZE Louis!

Communism is dead.

Now it is a boogie man to frighten the masses while the new "isms" arise.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2014, 06:49:32 pm »
If mercantilism depends on positive balances... well, then it may have ended long ago.  I think that's right. (I somehow posted this on another thread.)
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2014, 06:51:26 pm »
If mercantilism depends on positive balances... well, then it may have ended long ago.  I think that's right. (I somehow posted this on another thread.)

That's the entire idea behind mercantilism.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2014, 06:54:43 pm »
That's the entire idea behind mercantilism.

Wow... so I was kinda right?  Small victory!  My head really hurts today (not from self-inflicted wounds, either).
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Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2014, 06:57:31 pm »
As we are swiftly reestablishing in our society an odd form the middle ages relationship of lords to vassals through our bastardized Republic and federal political system...we might end up all the way back at feudalism.
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2014, 07:05:07 pm »
Wow... so I was kinda right?  Small victory!  My head really hurts today (not from self-inflicted wounds, either).

Mercantilism was the notion that success was achieved via a trade surplus against other nations, and as a result, the accumulation of wealth (bullionism). The publication of Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" in 1776 toppled that idea by arguing that the growth of productivity (increased production output with decreased input) was the key to a nation's economical stability. Since decreasing input (costs) may includes securing cheaper  materials from abroad, the whole notion that more exports was better than more imports died.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2014, 07:10:18 pm »
Communism is dead.

Now it is a boogie man to frighten the masses while the new "isms" arise.

I disagree with you about that! I think the idea that communism is dead is a brilliant propaganda ploy and nothing more but since I agree with what you said about totalitarianism I won't further quibble as to what the current name is.

My interest is in one ism only! Constitutionalism!
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 07:12:37 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2014, 07:20:16 pm »
That's the entire idea behind mercantilism.

Perhaps that is true if you rely only on the technical definition but there are many vestiges of mercantilism still alive and well in this country today and you need look no further than the Obama administration and Solindra to see it!

Do you not believe that corporate welfare is a HUGE problem in this country right now?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 07:26:55 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2014, 07:24:39 pm »
As we are swiftly reestablishing in our society an odd form the middle ages relationship of lords to vassals through our bastardized Republic and federal political system...we might end up all the way back at feudalism.

There is very little 'Republic" left bastardized or not!   For a long time now we have had only a very big mess, regardless of what one chooses to name it, and only a return to the Constitution will fix it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2014, 07:35:11 pm »
Perhaps that is true if you rely only on the technical definition but there are many vestiges of mercantilism still alive and well in this country today and you need look no further than the Obama administration and Solindra to see it!

Mercantilism is mercantilism, "vestiges" of mercantilism does not make ours a mercantilistic nation.

That's like saying that just because Rome still stands and we still use Roman numerals, the Roman Empire still exists.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2014, 07:40:02 pm »
Mercantilism is mercantilism, "vestiges" of mercantilism does not make ours a mercantilistic nation.

That's like saying that just because Rome still stands and we still use Roman numerals, the Roman Empire still exists.

Whatever! I'm tired of the hair splitting. We agree on the basics. At least I THINK we do.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2014, 08:07:56 pm »
There is only one "ism"... totalitarianism, which itself is a name for the more basic concept of all governance, authoritarianism. Every other "ism" is a variance of that one "ism" developed to address the specific time and place where it's being applied.

Whether it's Soviet-style communism, Italian fascism, Euro socialism, Islamic theologism, British imperialism, Medieval monarchism, or Louis XIV mercantilism, it all boils down to the idea that the few (or the one) is best suited to decide for the many. It is a concentration of power.

The basic idea of the American experiment was the decentralization of that power. We have centralized power again, and are in fact back at that place that we broke away from back in 1776.

We are not going to "fall" to communism, but we are going to evolve into some sort of "ism" that is unique to us but still a form of authoritarianism. It can't be communism because we have been conditioned for decades to recoil at the very mention of the word. The idea of communism generates unalterable visions of brutality and oppression in our minds that will, in and of themselves, defeat any possible implementation of such a system. Socialism has very much the same baggage, so that won' work either, and even as we KNOW that Obama is a Socialist, even Socialists recoil from labeling him as such, because of the negative connotations that the terms carries with it. Proponents of authoritarianism can't sell failed systems to nations. They'll just invent a new "ism" for our time and our nation.

I call it Socialist Managerialism, or Managerial Socialism... take your pick.

There's one important thing to keep in mind about all this. The leaders of all these "ism" movements seldom (if ever) actually believe in the ideals they promote.

Here's an excerpt from an old American Thinker article that mentions one of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's less-known works, "Lenin in Zurich" (fiction):
 
We'll get our own, unique "ism".


Communism won't become the US "ism" for the simple reasons that (a) there is no stomache to truly destroy private property and expropriate everything from everyone (not the least because that would require massive armed conflict), and (b) a large segment of the so-called propertied class have in fact learned the lessons from yesteryear and are determined to not get caught flatfooted again; rather than outright opposition to the pro-socialist movement of the federal government, these interests have sidestepped in an effort to retain the essential attributes of their power/wealth - through management of the political process - and are willing to pay substantial "vigorish" to protect themselves.  These interests are, by and large, corporate - Citigroup being a fine example - and extremely wealthy individuals like George Soros.  That this is so is, I believe, evidenced by the growing crony capitalism under Obuttocks and the democrats; e.g., most of the so-called banking reform, like the regulation of "systemically important" banks, is essentially nothing more than protectionism for the big banks against their littler rivals, which is the quid pro quo for allowing the democrats to impose more regulatory burdens on them and to exact more "fines" and etc. from them (that being part of the "vigorish" being paid for protection).  This latter is, in its essential outline, so-called neo-corporatism, and follows the contours of European social corporativism.

This, ultimately, makes the difference between "falling" to communism or to socialism: communism brooks no other rival power bases and has only one class: the proletariat; accordingly, corporativism is anathema to communism; by contrast, corporativism is generally a necessary predicate to any comprehensive socialist government.  This follows because corporativism depends upon the continued existence of a certain significant degree of private property and commerce, so long as the government, in alliance with the large labor and business interests (i.e., the unions and the large corporate businesses, like Citigroup), effectively controls/manages the broader economy and has the ability/power to lavish economic benefits on those it favors and strip all benefits from those it disfavors.  The large labor and business interests are, of course, perfectly happy giving the government that power because that is essentially how they obtain protection from competition by smaller businesses, although few if any of them will ever say so publicly.  Communism sees no need for any detente or compromise with the bourgeoisie - precisely the propertied class from whence the large business owners spring - and sees their continued private control over material resources as nothing more than theft, to be rectified by taking those resources back and giving them to their natural owners, the proletariat.  There being no private business interests to deal with, independent, nongovernmental trade unions become beside the point, at best an inefficient waste of resources and at worst a refuge the bourgeoisie can use to hide from the proletariat and return to attack them at their most vulnerable points.

Ultimately, since corporativism is both the easier route to centralized control of the economy in the West, and since it has already become established in the West, including the US, through existing federal regulation of the economy, some form of socialism, not communism, is the most likely sort of "ism" to which the US will fall prey.