Author Topic: The Abortion Index  (Read 2434 times)

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Offline Rapunzel

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The Abortion Index
« on: September 09, 2012, 06:45:34 PM »

Offline KeyserSoze

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 06:48:51 PM »
Of the 54.9 M killed one has to wonder which had the cure for cancer.
All so one party can by votes.
Is it any wonder why we are a failed nation.
I'll believe liberals are sentient when Obama starts attacking them with drones.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 07:14:22 PM »
Of the 54.9 M killed one has to wonder which had the cure for cancer.
All so one party can by votes.
Is it any wonder why we are a failed nation.

Nope... these are statistics to mourn as a civilized society.


Offline wolfcreek

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 03:09:24 PM »
Of the 54.9 M killed one has to wonder which had the cure for cancer.
All so one party can by votes.
Is it any wonder why we are a failed nation.

This country will have worse times ahead because of it.

Offline Oceander

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 03:40:20 PM »
I would be very careful with exercises like this.  Counterfactuals rarely prove anything.

Offline wolfcreek

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 03:45:46 PM »
I would be very careful with exercises like this.  Counterfactuals rarely prove anything.

I don't see what there is to prove, the numbers don't lie.

They're likely low balled.

In my mind, this can't sit well with the Almighty.

Offline Oceander

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 03:59:09 PM »
I don't see what there is to prove, the numbers don't lie.

They're likely low balled.

In my mind, this can't sit well with the Almighty.

I'm sure it doesn't sit well with the Almighty, but whether to make something illegal or not - whether to use the coercive power of the State against an individual for certain activities - is a matter that God has entrusted to Caesar; were that not the case then capital punishment is a sin, period, because it involves the taking of a life.  If the right/power to take a life is justified under certain circumstances, then it cannot be as a direct dictate of God, to whom all murder is an abomination.  It must be, therefore, a matter that God has left to the discretion of Caesar.  The issue then becomes one of personal sin as between the individual and God, with the mediation of Jesus, and not one of simply imposing some version of God's apparent will on the rest of the material world.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" has a harsher bite then simply paying Caesar's taxes with gold coins minted with Caesar's image.

More to the point, these figures (the underline items):

Quote
Typical cost for an abortion in the United States today - $350

Estimated cost of preventing an abortion
through early education of young people - $25

Number of babies who could be saved by a $350 donation - 14
(Early education is the most cost effective way to prevent abortion)

Estimated future GDP gain of a baby saved from abortion: $25,000,000

Ratio to cost of an average abortion: 71,430 to 1

Est. total U.S. GDP loss to date for 54,900,000 abortions:
$43 trillion (2011)

Estimated future U.S. GDP loss by 2040 if abortion continues:
$400 trillion

Your share of this future loss: $129,000


Are based on a wholly speculative counterfactual.  You simply cannot build an argument against abortion on the underline items.  That's a little bit like saying that if only  Gavrilo Princip had not been born, or had been killed before June 28, 1914, or had been plied with drugs and alcohol on the night of June 27, 1914 so that he was unconscious throughout June 28, 1914, then Archduke Franz Ferdinand would not have been assassinated and World War I would not have started.

I trust you can see the weakness in that proposition and why it does not constitute an argument.

Offline wolfcreek

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 04:25:04 PM »
I'm sure it doesn't sit well with the Almighty, but whether to make something illegal or not - whether to use the coercive power of the State against an individual for certain activities - is a matter that God has entrusted to Caesar; were that not the case then capital punishment is a sin, period, because it involves the taking of a life.  If the right/power to take a life is justified under certain circumstances, then it cannot be as a direct dictate of God, to whom all murder is an abomination.  It must be, therefore, a matter that God has left to the discretion of Caesar.  The issue then becomes one of personal sin as between the individual and God, with the mediation of Jesus, and not one of simply imposing some version of God's apparent will on the rest of the material world.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" has a harsher bite then simply paying Caesar's taxes with gold coins minted with Caesar's image.

More to the point, these figures (the underline items):

Are based on a wholly speculative counterfactual.  You simply cannot build an argument against abortion on the underline items.  That's a little bit like saying that if only  Gavrilo Princip had not been born, or had been killed before June 28, 1914, or had been plied with drugs and alcohol on the night of June 27, 1914 so that he was unconscious throughout June 28, 1914, then Archduke Franz Ferdinand would not have been assassinated and World War I would not have started.

I trust you can see the weakness in that proposition and why it does not constitute an argument.

Pardon. I see where you are coming from now. That is mostly speculation.

FWIW, I never have had any respect for Caesar (except the dressing) :smokin:

Offline wolfcreek

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 04:28:47 PM »
I know it will likely never be illegal in my life time (unless there is some sort of plague that ravishes the planet and it become crucial to have births) but, it should never be used as a form of birth control for those with a lack of self control.

Offline Oceander

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 05:05:52 PM »
Pardon. I see where you are coming from now. That is mostly speculation.

FWIW, I never have had any respect for Caesar (except the dressing) :smokin:

:beer:  I can't stand Caesar either, which is why it is the right thing - and the correct thing - to oppose Obama.  Obama and the democrats are Caesar and they are attempting, not only to extend Caesar's reach to all facets of material life, to reap for Caesar that which is God's by, for example, attempting to force the Church to pay for contraceptives (if that succeeds, can forcing the Church to pay for abortions be far behind?).

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 05:05:59 PM »
The numbers in this article says it all. 

While the horse is out of the barn re making abortion illegal, I think we should all feel shame at the sheer volume of babies who have been murdered and continue to be so when contraception is so readily available and cheap in this country.  In addition, the improvements in ultrasound are so advanced that the numbers are turning against instead of for abortion... it is no longer an unseen "blob" in a woman's body... it is a living, beating, feeling, human soul....   and as stated above... we can only imagine what those who were not deemed worthy of being born could have contributed to our society.

Offline wolfcreek

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 05:09:42 PM »
:beer:  I can't stand Caesar either, which is why it is the right thing - and the correct thing - to oppose Obama.  Obama and the democrats are Caesar and they are attempting, not only to extend Caesar's reach to all facets of material life, to reap for Caesar that which is God's by, for example, attempting to force the Church to pay for contraceptives (if that succeeds, can forcing the Church to pay for abortions be far behind?).

IIRC, paid for abortion in Obamacare.

Offline Oceander

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 05:11:18 PM »

Offline wolfcreek

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2012, 05:11:54 PM »

Offline wolfcreek

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2012, 05:17:31 PM »
Not to be too much of a trouble-maker or a blanket wetter, but one can just as easily imagine what those who weren't born might have taken from our society.

That's the trouble, speculating on what might have been knows no limits and, if taken too far, can justify anything.  My counter-proposal, if accepted as an argument (which it is not) would certainly justify a far-reaching program of state-sponsored euthanasia.

I know as a Christian I probably shouldn't agree with the ability of a self aware adult being able to take their own life without fear of retribution but, I have considered it to be something of an option. Especially for those who know they will experience a painful and heartbreaking death.

OTOH, taking the life of a child strictly as a convenience....

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2012, 05:18:25 PM »
Totally agree. It's sickening to see women (and men) take that life for granted.

Perhaps I take this more personally because I was never able to have children and in fact had a total hysterectomy when I was 30.... so it makes me very angry to see women who are able to get pregnant so nonchalantly destroy that life.

Offline Oceander

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2012, 05:22:36 PM »
I know as a Christian I probably shouldn't agree with the ability of a self aware adult being able to take their own life without fear of retribution but, I have considered it to be something of an option. Especially for those who know they will experience a painful and heartbreaking death.

OTOH, taking the life of a child strictly as a convenience....

I agree completely that it is a terrible thing, one that should never be engaged in.  That being said, humanity is capable of a lot of terrible things.  The question is, I suppose, whether and to what extent one has the right to interfere.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2012, 05:40:09 PM »
I agree completely that it is a terrible thing, one that should never be engaged in.  That being said, humanity is capable of a lot of terrible things.  The question is, I suppose, whether and to what extent one has the right to interfere.

If you were walking down the street and saw a woman stabbing a baby in the head would you try to stop her or keep walking?  Given our president is in favor of just that I don't see there is much difference.

Offline wolfcreek

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2012, 05:51:46 PM »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 05:57:25 PM »
You must excuse Dear Leader, he's an idiot puppet guided by horrendous forces and knows not what he does. (or at least we can hope that)

I still cannot believe how he said he would not want his daughters "punished" with a baby.

Offline wolfcreek

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2012, 07:03:03 AM »

Online jmyrlefuller

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2012, 08:45:07 PM »
Numbers can be made up, you know.

Of course the author leaves out the tremendous cost of raising a child, with education, health care, food, nanny-state regulations, etc., much of which is turning out to wipe out much of the economic benefits the modern child will have on society.

The rest of these numbers have no source to them and are no more than random, likely grossly inflated assertions.

Furthermore there have been zero "babies" aborted. By definition, a fetus does not become a baby until it is born; thus, aborting a "baby" is a contradiction and an "aborted baby" is an oxymoron. A fetus does not have legal personhood, U.S. citizenship, or any other rights of a human being. It is a separate life form from the mother, and that is why I oppose the barbaric practice of abortion, but it is not a legal person, and every state that has been put forth the option to recognize feti as legal persons has rejected the idea, even in the most pro-life and conservative states.

If anything, these statistics (if they are to be trusted) show how far gone society has become and that it is the equivalent of tilting at windmills to try and change things.

Online jmyrlefuller

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Re: The Abortion Index
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2012, 08:47:06 PM »
Quote
Total years of life expectancy lost by aborted American babies
since 1967: 4.27 billion life years.

Total distance from one end of the universe to the other:
10 billion light years.

*snickers* Talk about comparing apples to monkey dung.


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