Author Topic: Civil war warning: Immigration issue will tear America apart if we don’t split up peacefully now  (Read 2983 times)

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Offline Fishrrman

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https://thenationalsentinel.com/2019/01/21/civil-war-warning-immigration-issue-will-tear-america-apart-if-we-dont-split-up-peacefully-now/

Civil war warning: Immigration issue will tear America apart if we don’t split up peacefully now

by Jon Dougherty
January 21, 2019



Democrats, especially those vying for their party’s 2020 presidential nomination, have resolutely come out in opposition to POTUS Donald Trump’s extremely generous compromise offer on border security and immigration reform, proving once more they couldn’t care less about the safety and security of our country.

Even before the president finished laying out his proposal on Saturday, which included money for his sought-after wall along with border security technology (something Dems claimed all last week they supported) and three-year extentions for DACA recipients and others facing deporation, top Democrats including Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) were rejecting it.

Why? Because before any negotiations can begin on border security, Democrats insist, POTUS must cave and give in on his demands — which, of course, is an obvious political tactic aimed ultimately at giving the president (and the American people) nothing in terms of real border security.

...

How can you reasonably expect to lead a country so hopelessly divided over a singular issue, especially one like immigration which, to the Left and Right, has become as politically explosive as slavery was in the 19th century?

There is not going to be any compromise on either side, so the next logical question becomes: How will it be possible, moving forward, to govern an entire nation that is so bitterly and hopelessly divided over a singular issue that one side sees as a law enforcment and cultural preservation issue while the other sees it as the civil rights movement of our time?

More at URL above...

Offline Fishrrman

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See the partition of India in 1947:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

... and the subsequent migrations of large populations afterwards.

Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Since black race hustlers are howling about reparations for slavery, how about those of us who have been enslaved by Democrat Confiscations of our Liberties, Labor and Goods getting Financial Reparations from Them?

So we can Afford to Move into Real America after the split?

Slavery was 7 or 8 generations ago.

Democrat Tyranny is Enslaving us on their plantation Today.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 11:32:06 pm by To-Whose-Benefit? »
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Offline truth_seeker

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Securing the border, was a major position of Cesar Chavez, who co-founded the United Farm Worker Union in the 1960s.

He felt illegal immigrants drove down the pay of his members.

Likewise low income blacks, etc., should be against illegal immigration, in their best interests.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

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No country for white men.

Offline goatprairie

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Although the great bulk of the American people have far more in common than differences,  our Dem neighbors are being led around by the nose by radical leaders whose only interest in getting power and keeping it.
I seriously doubt most middle-class  Dems want hordes of uneducated, disease-prone, criminally-inclined people as their neighbors.
But they can't let go of the liberal dream of egalitarianism where everybody in the world is the same and holds the same values.
Most of the people trying to escape from sh*t-hole countries are the same people who made them sh*tholes.  They have no interest in assimilating. They make it plain they want to hang onto their culture while ruining their new country's culture.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for the few sane Dems to come to their senses, but I don't want to see the greatest country in the history of the world split up because of radical leftists messing things up.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 10:55:54 pm by goatprairie »

Offline Free Vulcan

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When the financial markets no longer allow us to spend ourselves into ever growing deficits, it will happen anyway.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Jazzhead

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The original Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, abhorred the option of "splitting up peacefully".   He chose to fight to preserve the Union.   

No peaceful split up.   If these issues cannot be resolved by political compromise utilizing the Constitution the Founders gave us, then civil war is the way to go.   
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Offline HoustonSam

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The original Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, abhorred the option of "splitting up peacefully".   He chose to fight to preserve the Union.   

No peaceful split up.   If these issues cannot be resolved by political compromise utilizing the Constitution the Founders gave us, then civil war is the way to go.   

I have to disagree here.  The irreconcilable desire of peoples to live according to their own, differing, principles should not be considered an adequate cause for war.  Frankly @Jazzhead I'm surprised that someone who argues as passionately as you do against enforced religious principles would believe that enforced political union is worth widespread, violent loss of life.

What is routinely called "The American Civil War" was not actually a civil war.  The Confederates were not vying for control of the Federal Government, they were vying to be free of it.  The clear geographical division of the day contributed to the political division the Confederates attempted, and indirectly enabled the resulting war.

Differing opinions on immigration might be irreconcilable, but they don't fall as neatly on geographic lines; it's much harder, at least for me, to envision a geographic division of the United States consistent with different beliefs on immigration policy.  No one would be trying to secede, everyone would be trying to control, and the front would not coincide with a river or state line, it would exist everywhere people experienced disagreement.  If this division did lead to nationwide violence, it would be a true civil war, the first in the nation's history, with the winning side taking control of the entire country.
James 1:20

Offline Jazzhead

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@HoustonSam ,  note how I phrased my post.  I said IF would couldn't compromise and resolve our differences under the Constitutional framework the Founders gave us.   It is a tremendous gift we were given. It is about time we tried in good faith - all of us- to work out our differences and abide by the result.   As Stephen Stills sang, we are not helpless, we are men.   But if we are to behave like bullying children,  then civil war it will be.
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Offline HoustonSam

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@HoustonSam ,  note how I phrased my post.  I said IF would couldn't compromise and resolve our differences under the Constitutional framework the Founders gave us.   It is a tremendous gift we were given. It is about time we tried in good faith - all of us- to work out our differences and abide by the result.   As Stephen Stills sang, we are not helpless, we are men.   But if we are to behave like bullying children,  then civil war it will be.

I'm afraid your position is too nuanced for me to follow.  I recognize that you are calling for compromise within the Constitutional framework.  But are you not further advocating that if such compromise is unachievable, war is preferable to peaceful division?

I can't imagine a better example of behaving like bullying children than killing someone for disagreeing with you.  And that's what a civil war would be.
James 1:20

Offline truth_seeker

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Breaking or broken up: Norway-Sweden (1906). Austro-Hungary. Czech-Republic. Yugoslavia.

USSR. UK. Ireland. India-Pakistan-Bangladesh.

etc.

I could see the US devolving into semi-autonomous states.

I don't like the idea. My family has served during every conflict since the French-Indian War. (Except Grenada and Balkans.)
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I'm afraid your position is too nuanced for me to follow.  I recognize that you are calling for compromise within the Constitutional framework.  But are you not further advocating that if such compromise is unachievable, war is preferable to peaceful division?

I can't imagine a better example of behaving like bullying children than killing someone for disagreeing with you.  And that's what a civil war would be.

As far as I'm concerned,  states peacefully withdrawal from a government they freely joined IS within the framework of the Constitution and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that doing so may be the only way out of the current mess.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline ABX

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There isn't going to be a civil war. Sure, some people may thrown on some blue or red hats and waive some signs, a few small groups on both sides may make protests violent, but at the end of the day, the American publics attention span is about as long as a sitcom season  and their willingness to act doesn't extend beyond the keyboard.

I've met some of the loudest internet voices calling for CWII and most would have trouble getting their mobility scooters over a curb. They have 13 year old fantasies of playing cowboys and Indians. The frightening reality as well is that those with, let's call it moral flexibility, to fire on another citizen aren't on the right. They aren't the old cowboy in church. They are the criminal gangs who are very well armed and wouldn't think twice about pulling a trigger- they do it all the time now.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:32:42 am by ABX »

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There isn't going to be a civil war. Sure, some people may thrown on some blue or red hats and waive some signs, a few small groups on both sides may make protests violent, but at the end of the day, the American publics attention span is about as long as a sitcom season  and their willingness to act doesn't extend beyond the keyboard.

I've met some of the loudest internet voices calling for CWII and most would have trouble getting their mobility scooters over a curb. They have 13 year old fantasies of playing cowboys and Indians. The frightening reality as well is that those with, let's call it moral flexibility, to fire on another citizen aren't on the right. They aren't the old cowboy in church. They are the criminal gangs who are very well armed and wouldn't think twice about pulling a trigger- they do it all the time now.

With all due respect,  I'm certain that you are woefully misinformed.  It's coming, and if we can't cite irreconcilable differences and part peacefully it's going to hell on earth.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline Jazzhead

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I'm afraid your position is too nuanced for me to follow.  I recognize that you are calling for compromise within the Constitutional framework.  But are you not further advocating that if such compromise is unachievable, war is preferable to peaceful division?

I can't imagine a better example of behaving like bullying children than killing someone for disagreeing with you.  And that's what a civil war would be.

Maybe the term I'm looking for isn't "civil war", @HoustonSam     I don't consider our present troubles the result of fundamental hatred between neighbors who belong to different political parties.   This is a problem with the politicians we elect, and more specifically political leaders whom, perhaps driven by the opportunities for smashmouth presented by social media,  act like this is all sport and reality show and not about public service.  You know it's gotten bad when you realize that it's Trump who's acting like the adult in the room!

Political division was contemplated by the Founders,  and addressed in a remarkably successful manner by the Constitution's checks and balances, and mandates for the protection of civil liberties and individual sovereignty.  But like one of the big ones said (you remind me who it was, please (Jefferson?)),  it's a Republic if we can keep it,  a country that believes in the ideals of the melting pot if we can keep it. 

I am willing to fight to keep it.    I have no beef with my neighbors,  they absorb everything they hear in the context of wanting what's best for us.    It's the politicians who deserve to be forcibly removed from office in civil insurrection if they do not have the good faith intended by any fair expectation of the Founders -and of my neighbors! - that they perform their tasks with seriousness and cognizant of their responsibility to do their jobs in accordance with a fundamental set of animating principles.    Including, if I may be so bold, that the Republic must remain!       
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 03:11:22 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline HoustonSam

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There isn't going to be a civil war. Sure, some people may thrown on some blue or red hats and waive some signs, a few small groups on both sides may make protests violent, but at the end of the day, the American publics attention span is about as long as a sitcom season  and their willingness to act doesn't extend beyond the keyboard.

I've met some of the loudest internet voices calling for CWII and most would have trouble getting their mobility scooters over a curb. They have 13 year old fantasies of playing cowboys and Indians. The frightening reality as well is that those with, let's call it moral flexibility, to fire on another citizen aren't on the right. They aren't the old cowboy in church. They are the criminal gangs who are very well armed and wouldn't think twice about pulling a trigger- they do it all the time now.

I don't doubt you @ABX.  But those who *aren't* loud voices calling for CWII are the ones who are the most prepared and determined.  And precisely because they *aren't* morally flexible, they would fire on other citizens if push came to shove.  Reluctantly, but accurately.

@Bigun I agree with you.  Appomattox and Texas v White notwithstanding, I absolutely believe in the right of a state to secede.  But you and I are in the minority on that belief.  And as I have argued elsewhere on this thread, I don't see immigration policy being soluble by secession of a state or states.
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Offline TomSea

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I have to disagree here.  The irreconcilable desire of peoples to live according to their own, differing, principles should not be considered an adequate cause for war.  Frankly @Jazzhead I'm surprised that someone who argues as passionately as you do against enforced religious principles would believe that enforced political union is worth widespread, violent loss of life.

What is routinely called "The American Civil War" was not actually a civil war.  The Confederates were not vying for control of the Federal Government, they were vying to be free of it.  The clear geographical division of the day contributed to the political division the Confederates attempted, and indirectly enabled the resulting war.

Differing opinions on immigration might be irreconcilable, but they don't fall as neatly on geographic lines; it's much harder, at least for me, to envision a geographic division of the United States consistent with different beliefs on immigration policy.  No one would be trying to secede, everyone would be trying to control, and the front would not coincide with a river or state line, it would exist everywhere people experienced disagreement.  If this division did lead to nationwide violence, it would be a true civil war, the first in the nation's history, with the winning side taking control of the entire country.

Read the Confederate States letters of secession, it's easy to say all of this, they fought for slavery. That's hardly free. There is not one mention of that word in what you wrote.

http://civilwarcauses.org/corner.htm

That's making a silk purse from a sow's ear if ever there was one.  Talk about sugar coating things.

Offline HoustonSam

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Maybe the term I'm looking for isn't "civil war", @HoustonSam     I don't consider our present troubles the result of fundamental hatred between neighbors who belong to different political parties.   This is a problem with the politicians we elect, and more specifically political leaders whom, perhaps driven by the opportunities for smashmouth presented by social media,  act like this is all sport and reality show and not about public service.  You know it's gotten bad when you realize that it's Trump who's acting like the adult in the room!

No doubt there are many opportunistic politicians who appeal to division and bad faith, who corrupt the obligations and privileges of citizenship by exaggerating tribal divisions within the body politic.  One of the reasons I'm an anti-Democrat is because I find them to be systematically guilty of this kind of cynical appeal.


Quote
Political division was contemplated by the Founders,  and addressed in a remarkably successful manner by the Constitution's checks and balances, and mandate for the protection of civil liberties and individual sovereignty.  But like one of the big ones said (you remind me who it was, please),  it's a Republic if we can keep it,  a country that believes in the ideal of the melting pot if we can keep it. 

Certainly the founders did a remarkable job in overcoming parochial interests and bequeathing to us a basis for continuing to manage and overcome those same parochial interests.  And the big one you're trying to remember was Franklin.  But I'm not sure the ideal he believed in was the melting pot - I think that came about a hundred years later.

Quote
I am willing to fight to keep it.    I have no beef with my neighbors,  they absorb everything they hear in the context of wanting what's best for us.    It's the politicians who deserve to be forcibly removed from office in civil insurrection if they do not have the good faith intended by any fair expectation of the Founders -and of my neighbors! - that they perform their tasks with seriousness and cognizant of their responsibility to do their jobs in accordance with a fundamental set of animating principles.    Including, if I may be so bold, that the Republic must remain!     

But how did those politicians get into office?  Were they not elected?  I detest Nancy Pelosi, AOC, Maxine, etc, but I don't question their legitimacy.  Each in fact was elected by their constituency.  A half-hour's drive from where I sit is the district of Sheila Jackson Lee.  If anyone ever deserved to be forcibly removed from office it's she, but she is the duly elected representative of her district, with the complete legitimacy of their imprimatur.  So my problem really isn't with her, it's with those who routinely re-elect her.  Stated differently, I believe our fundamental division *is* at the level I've underlined in the first quote above - division among the people, not just among their opportunistic, self-interested elected representatives.  Those people continue to get elected, and government is divided, because the voters continue to elect them, and are themselves divided.  Some want to see the opposing tribe subjugated, others merely want to be free of them, but *the electorate is divided*, not just manipulated by the politicians.  Diagnosing the causes of the division goes far beyond the civic mechanisms of the Constitution, and gets to issues of faith and culture, issues which divide even the contributors to TBR regularly, and we all claim to be conservatives.

I respect greatly the humanitarian ideals and the tolerance you regularly present here @Jazzhead, but I'm afraid the ship of civic comity sailed long ago.  Each side regularly sends its representatives to office, neither side is willing to compromise its principles, the left long ago made it personal and the right has finally reciprocated in the person of Trump.  In a democracy you get the government you deserve; we get the government we elect, division and all.  The division isn't just in Washington, it's on main street in every town in the country.

In the words of Pogo, we have met the enemy and he is us.  Personally I would prefer to dissolve political bonds that have become chains in a knife fight, allow my current countryman to live according to his own values and me to live according to mine, and restore friendly relationships with him, free in my own sovereignty over my own affairs and happy to accord him the same freedom.  I just don't know how to accomplish that when that countryman might literally be my next door neighbor, so that even an appeal to state sovereignty is inadequate to the problem.
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Quote
In the words of Pogo, we have met the enemy and he is us.  Personally I would prefer to dissolve political bonds that have become chains in a knife fight, allow my current countryman to live according to his own values and me to live according to mine, and restore friendly relationships with him, free in my own sovereignty over my own affairs and happy to accord him the same freedom.  I just don't know how to accomplish that when that countryman might literally be my next door neighbor, so that even an appeal to state sovereignty is inadequate to the problem.

Pretty much my position as well.  I'm afraid that the sea to shining sea United States is completely lost to us and we must now return to the collection of sovereign states we once were or it's all going up in smoke and flames.
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Offline HoustonSam

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Read the Confederate States letters of secession, it's easy to say all of this, they fought for slavery. That's hardly free. There is not one mention of that word in what you wrote.

http://civilwarcauses.org/corner.htm

That's making a silk purse from a sow's ear if ever there was one.  Talk about sugar coating things.

Your argument is in the first place completely irrelevant because I'm talking about the definition of "civil war,"  not the cause of the American "Civil War."  It is inarguable that the Confederates were *not* fighting to control the Federal government, they were fighting to leave it.  The reasons they wanted to leave are irrelevant to the definition of "civil war."

And in the second place you are factually incorrect, although certainly in today's majority.  The states of the deep south *did* secede from the union to preserve slavery, and they *did* write a constitution for their own confederacy which required slavery.  But they did not declare war on the union.  The war took place because Lincoln insisted on it, insisting on war rather than the freedom of people to govern themselves, even if their culture was corrupted by a practice we now recognize as a hideous sin.  The Confederates did not fight for slavery, they fought for their own right to determine their own affairs.  They fought because they were invaded.  Had Lincoln not waged war against the Confederates there would have been no American "Civil War."  And had he not begun raising an army the states of the upper south would not have seceded.

You are certainly correct that *some* of the articles of secession identify slavery as the cause of secession (note : not of war).  Mississippi for example was absolutely clear about it.  Georgia, Texas, and even South Carolina were less clear, but I will readily concede that the Confederate States of America were formed to preserve slavery.  What about Virginia, North Carolina, Arkansas, and Tennessee?  Can you cite their "letters of secession" and demonstrate that they fought for slavery?  More to the point, can you cite a declaration of war, of the Confederate States against the Union, stating that the Confederates *fought the war* to preserve slavery?

In fact @TomSea the reference to which you link, a speech by Alexander Hamilton Stephens, says this :

"Our object is peace, not only with the North, but with the world. All matters relating to the public property, public liabilities of the Union when we were members of it, we are ready and willing to adjust and settle upon the principles of right, equity, and good faith. War can be of no more benefit to the North than to us."

Many here on TBR will reject my argument, and consider me fundamentally treasonous or even racist.  The verdict of history, right or wrong, came in long ago, and I have no desire for lengthy debates over a subject now relegated to mere academic consideration.  I won't defend the Confederacy's foundation on slavery.  That is a fact and it is indefensible.  But I won't let pass a position which is demonstrably false, no matter that Lincoln raised it in his Second Inaugural, and regardless of how widely accepted and sacrosanct it is now considered.  Why were union armies on Confederate soil from the spring of 1861 until the Emancipation Proclamation took effect January 1 1863?  Clearly it wasn't to end slavery, because there was no law, ordinance, or other order in place to end slavery.  So why was there a war for those 21 months? Why, and more importantly *where*, were those men in grey fighting?
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Offline Absalom

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Read the Confederate States letters of secession, it's easy to say all of this, they fought for slavery. That's hardly free. There is not one mention of that word in what you wrote.

http://civilwarcauses.org/corner.htm

That's making a silk purse from a sow's ear if ever there was one.  Talk about sugar coating things.
------------------------------------------
While the Plantation Oligarchy "fought for slavery", they represented but a minority of the
pre-Civil War Southern power structure. A large majority embraced the principles and
values of Henry, Jefferson, Madison, Rutledge, Hall; among hundreds.
The Agrarian/Rural South supported States Rights and Free Trade while the Mercantile/Industrial
North supported centralized government and trade protectionism.
That was the essence of the Civil War fight; rather than slavery.   

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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As far as I'm concerned,  states peacefully withdrawal from a government they freely joined IS within the framework of the Constitution and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that doing so may be the only way out of the current mess.

"they freely joined" can lead to some interesting questions.  Does that mean that TX has the right to secede, but AK doesn't?  Where does VA fit in, original signatory or conquered territory?

IMO, the question comes down to:

1) Do people have the right to choose their own form of governance, or...

2) Are people bound by the pacts made by people who have been dead for centuries, just because one group of people came first?
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Breaking or broken up: Norway-Sweden (1906). Austro-Hungary. Czech-Republic. Yugoslavia.

USSR. UK. Ireland. India-Pakistan-Bangladesh.

etc.

I could see the US devolving into semi-autonomous states.

I don't like the idea. My family has served during every conflict since the French-Indian War. (Except Grenada and Balkans.)
That completely misses the original concept of These United States, which were until the 1860s semi autonomous political entities, each with their own army, secretary of state, treasury, and executive, courts, and legislature.
It was only after the coerced retention of those states which sought separation that those states rights were overshadowed by a Federal Government which had, in effect, become a National Government.

I am not in favor of balkanization, but it grows increasingly apparent that some of the more heavily populated states (actually, relatively small areas of those who outvote the rest) live, and desire lifestyles and forms and levels of government which are increasingly incompatible with the less heavily populated remainder of the country. While those population islands are dispersed about the nation, they have one factor more distinguishing than any other: population density.
Their politics differ, their desires from government, the very level of control their citizenry will tolerate and yet stay within the law varies wildly from the relationship between people and government desired elsewhere.
Unfortunately, a single county in California can outvote, in terms of popular vote, vast regions of the inter-mountain west comprised of number of states. Gather the votes from those major urban centers and an area the size of one state outvotes the rest, or nearly so, and a couple of counties set the political tone of politics for an entire state.
That divide does not have the clear sectional boundaries that were present in the last such conflict. Instead, the battle lines would be between urban and rural.

We have the framework for reconciling those differences, or at least making them more manageable. Restore the power and rights to the several States the Federal Government has usurped and work with the framework of original intent. De centralize all but the basics, those powers and duties originally granted that government without the twisted application of the commerce clause and a couple of other phrases, and I think we could sort it out.

However, in the current shrill and polarized political environment, such peaceful, rational reconciliation is unlikely.
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Offline HoustonSam

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  • Gender: Male
  • old times there are not forgotten

We have the framework for reconciling those differences, or at least making them more manageable. Restore the power and rights to the several States the Federal Government has usurped and work with the framework of original intent. De centralize all but the basics, those powers and duties originally granted that government without the twisted application of the commerce clause and a couple of other phrases, and I think we could sort it out.


Repeal of the 16th and 17th Amendments, and rejection of the Incorporation Doctrine, would go a long way.
James 1:20