Author Topic: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government  (Read 1198 times)

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Offline Emjay

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Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« on: January 14, 2019, 05:41:30 pm »
President Trump on Monday said he is standing by his demand for border wall funding, dismissing calls from one of his top Republican allies to temporarily reopen the government.

Asked by reporters about Sen. Lindsey Graham’s (R-S.C.) suggestion that Trump sign a stopgap spending bill to buy more time for talks, Trump responded, “I did reject it.”

“I’m not interested. I want to get it solved. I don’t want to just delay it. I want to get it solved,” he said.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/425185-trump-rejects-grahams-call-to-reopen-government

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Offline Emjay

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2019, 05:42:51 pm »
Absolutely no point in doing anything to attempt to mollify the democrats.  They will not budge on this.

He will eventually have to use the nuclear option and I wish he would go ahead and do it.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2019, 05:43:39 pm »
By the way @corbe some of us 'they' can also post from The Hill.
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2019, 05:47:22 pm »
Trump isn't the one who shut down government.  Congress is.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline corbe

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2019, 05:58:05 pm »
By the way @corbe some of us 'they' can also post from The Hill.

   Thank You @Emjay for posting this, though I don't recall you whining about The Hill]/I] articles here.
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2019, 05:58:32 pm »
Absolutely no point in doing anything to attempt to mollify the democrats.  They will not budge on this.

He will eventually have to use the nuclear option and I wish he would go ahead and do it.

Agreed.  Not quite sure what he's waiting for, but the longer he waits the worse things are going to get.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Emjay

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2019, 06:00:19 pm »
   Thank You @Emjay for posting this, though I don't recall you whining about The Hill]/I] articles here.

C'mon @corbe   You know I never whine and certainly not about a really sweet guy like you.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2019, 06:01:42 pm »
Agreed.  Not quite sure what he's waiting for, but the longer he waits the worse things are going to get.

Not sure what has made Trump back off the nuclear option, but it's become obvious that he needs to do it quickly.
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Offline edpc

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2019, 06:33:39 pm »
Agreed.  Not quite sure what he's waiting for, but the longer he waits the worse things are going to get.


It seems pretty simple, at this point. He says he wants it solved. That obviously means getting cooperation from the House, isn’t likely. The emergency declaration and specifically the allocation of funds will be challenged, legally.  That will take time. During that process, opening the government will force him to shut it down again, at some point, if he loses the legal challenge. So, he is using the threat of declaration as leverage, while the partial shut down continues. I suppose that shows how much of a true emergency it really is.

Once the declaration is made, it’s out of his hands. He’s probably getting advice from Mulvaney and/or other admin members that it’s 50/50, at best, for a legal victory. If it was rejected, forget a bill. They’ll say why should we fund something SCOTUS thought was not constitutional, after the emergency was declared? He’s calculating it’s better to have the issue and his base behind the fight.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 06:44:05 pm by edpc »
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2019, 07:25:04 pm »

It seems pretty simple, at this point. He says he wants it solved. That obviously means getting cooperation from the House, isn’t likely. The emergency declaration and specifically the allocation of funds will be challenged, legally.  That will take time. During that process, opening the government will force him to shut it down again, at some point, if he loses the legal challenge. So, he is using the threat of declaration as leverage, while the partial shut down continues. I suppose that shows how much of a true emergency it really is.

Once the declaration is made, it’s out of his hands. He’s probably getting advice from Mulvaney and/or other admin members that it’s 50/50, at best, for a legal victory. If it was rejected, forget a bill. They’ll say why should we fund something SCOTUS thought was not constitutional, after the emergency was declared? He’s calculating it’s better to have the issue and his base behind the fight.

I dunno, Ed.  50/50 is better odds than the odds for getting Pelosi/Schumer to back down on this issue.

I still think he should do it.  Advisers are often timid.
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Offline edpc

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 07:45:52 pm »
I dunno, Ed.  50/50 is better odds than the odds for getting Pelosi/Schumer to back down on this issue.

I still think he should do it.  Advisers are often timid.


Like I said, it’s a bullet he gets to use once. When the emergency is declared and funds are redirected, it’ll be immediately challenged. Once that process starts, there will be no reason to keep the partial shutdown going. Otherwise, he would just be keeping federal workers hostage. It’s a move that comes with a lot of risk.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 09:15:30 pm »

Like I said, it’s a bullet he gets to use once. When the emergency is declared and funds are redirected, it’ll be immediately challenged. Once that process starts, there will be no reason to keep the partial shutdown going. Otherwise, he would just be keeping federal workers hostage. It’s a move that comes with a lot of risk.

Don't cry for federal workers.  They're getting a paid vacation and will be fully reimbursed when the shutdown is over.  Plus they make about 1.5 times what the average worker makes.

Most people think the risk is worth it.
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Offline edpc

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 09:18:42 pm »
Don't cry for federal workers.  They're getting a paid vacation and will be fully reimbursed when the shutdown is over.  Plus they make about 1.5 times what the average worker makes.

Most people think the risk is worth it.


Most people can’t declare the emergency - only he can - and he’s obviously reluctant. Also, the furloughed workers include personnel that process and distribute aid, loans, and data for farmers. The longer this goes on, the more pressure he’ll get from supporters. His ‘months or years’ threat is an empty one.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/everybody-impacted-shutdown-ruining-trumps-big-farmer-bailout-222417790.html
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:32:16 pm by edpc »
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2019, 09:23:46 pm »

It seems pretty simple, at this point. He says he wants it solved. That obviously means getting cooperation from the House, isn’t likely. The emergency declaration and specifically the allocation of funds will be challenged, legally.  That will take time. During that process, opening the government will force him to shut it down again, at some point, if he loses the legal challenge. So, he is using the threat of declaration as leverage, while the partial shut down continues. I suppose that shows how much of a true emergency it really is.

Once the declaration is made, it’s out of his hands. He’s probably getting advice from Mulvaney and/or other admin members that it’s 50/50, at best, for a legal victory. If it was rejected, forget a bill. They’ll say why should we fund something SCOTUS thought was not constitutional, after the emergency was declared? He’s calculating it’s better to have the issue and his base behind the fight.

I really don't see the legal challenge here.  He has the constitutional authority and took an oath to protect this country.  He wants to do so by erecting a wall.  The Secure Fence Act of 2006 was passed by BOTH Houses and signed into law by 'W'.  So ... again ... what the heck is he waiting for??

IF he has been told that there was a good chance that SCOTUS would shoot the fence down, why in the heck did he even announce declaring a national emergency?

I did notice when he was with Ted at the border in TX and mentioned declaring a National Emergency, Ted's body language changed and he seemed a bit uncomfortable with the comment --- just my personal observation.
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Offline bilo

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2019, 09:40:02 pm »
Absolutely no point in doing anything to attempt to mollify the democrats.  They will not budge on this.

He will eventually have to use the nuclear option and I wish he would go ahead and do it.

The problem isn't with the Rats. We all know they could care less who gets hurt if it increases the odds of them getting power. The problem is the Pub Senators. If Trump declares a national emergency the Pub Senators will insist on reopening the govt, even though the emergency declaration will be stopped by a federal judge and a long court battle will follow. During the court battle the wall doesn't get built and if Trump loses in 2020 it will never get built.

I'm all for declaring a national emergency if the Pubs will support Trump in keeping the govt closed during the court process, or until he gets the money he wants.

This is all out war for our sovereignty. We should be fighting like it.
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Offline edpc

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2019, 09:43:49 pm »
I really don't see the legal challenge here.  He has the constitutional authority and took an oath to protect this country.  He wants to do so by erecting a wall.  The Secure Fence Act of 2006 was passed by BOTH Houses and signed into law by 'W'.  So ... again ... what the heck is he waiting for??

IF he has been told that there was a good chance that SCOTUS would shoot the fence down, why in the heck did he even announce declaring a national emergency?

I did notice when he was with Ted at the border in TX and mentioned declaring a National Emergency, Ted's body language changed and he seemed a bit uncomfortable with the comment --- just my personal observation.


Here’s one of the reasons why the challenges would arise. Declaring the emergency isn’t the problem - appropriating the money and land are.



The fate of such an effort could depend on how courts interpret specific language in federal statutes governing use of the armed forces.

A formal declaration of a national emergency would allow some military construction funds to support “such use of the armed forces” as the crisis requires, according to Section 2808 of Title 10. After former President George W. Bush invoked the Emergencies Act following the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the military used that authority for construction projects in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as to improve counterterrorism security on some stateside bases.


-snip-

Further complicating matters, Section 2808 authorizes construction only on military land — very little of which abuts the border.

“The president would need to use the military to seize hundreds upon hundreds of miles of border land from the states and from private citizens, which there’s no legal authority to and which you can bet would create a political and legal response,” Berger said.


https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/legal-hurdles-trump-emergency-declaration-1069293
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Offline bilo

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2019, 09:46:16 pm »

It seems pretty simple, at this point. He says he wants it solved. That obviously means getting cooperation from the House, isn’t likely. The emergency declaration and specifically the allocation of funds will be challenged, legally.  That will take time. During that process, opening the government will force him to shut it down again, at some point, if he loses the legal challenge. So, he is using the threat of declaration as leverage, while the partial shut down continues. I suppose that shows how much of a true emergency it really is.

Once the declaration is made, it’s out of his hands. He’s probably getting advice from Mulvaney and/or other admin members that it’s 50/50, at best, for a legal victory. If it was rejected, forget a bill. They’ll say why should we fund something SCOTUS thought was not constitutional, after the emergency was declared? He’s calculating it’s better to have the issue and his base behind the fight.

This is why Trump needs to continue the shut down even after declaring an emergency. The key is will the Pubs back him, or will they use the declaration as an excuse to end the shut down. At this point just declaring an emergency plays right into the Rats hands they tie up the issue in the courts and if they beat Trump in 2020 the wall never gets built.
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Offline edpc

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2019, 10:16:38 pm »
This is why Trump needs to continue the shut down even after declaring an emergency. The key is will the Pubs back him, or will they use the declaration as an excuse to end the shut down.


They won’t - at least enough won’t, not for long after a declaration. Keeping the shutdown in place would be correctly viewed as punitive and petty. If McConnell refuses to bring bills to the floor after a declaration, he’ll be ousted.
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Offline EdJames

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2019, 10:24:55 pm »
This is why Trump needs to continue the shut down even after declaring an emergency. The key is will the Pubs back him, or will they use the declaration as an excuse to end the shut down. At this point just declaring an emergency plays right into the Rats hands they tie up the issue in the courts and if they beat Trump in 2020 the wall never gets built.

Let me preface this response by saying that some will view it as being overly pessimistic and jaded.  That my be the case, but from my point of view I just see it as embracing reality.

I would say that they are no "Pubs" to speak of.  In my opinion, there may be a handful of members in each chamber that are truly supportive of Trump's agenda.

For the rest of them (100 + 435) 'party' allegiance is nothing but a part of an act that they may need to use at various times.  I view them as actors on a grand stage.  They are playing roles for remuneration.  The goal of pursuing a position as an actor on this stage is to accumulate some combination of power, influence, and funds.

And the actors on the stage are very much working at some level in a very synchronized, ever evolving, script.  Imagine watching the synchronized swimmers in an Olympic pool.

The motivations and rewards are highly individualistic, each actor defines their roles according to what they perceive as their best vehicle to obtain those goals of power, influence, and funds, on an ongoing basis.  Some of them do very well in their roles and are re-elected many times over, spending a tenure measured in decades with the legislative branch.  Others screw up some aspect of the act early on, and are removed from the stage within a term or two.

To be successful on this stage the actor must have, and constantly hone, a keen sense of balance.  There are two main fulcrum points where that balance must be displayed:

1.  Balancing the needs/requirements of the actor's donors (funders, sponsors) versus the actor's constituency.  The donors (or their related agents) are what supply both the funding & support to obtain a role on the stage (and maintain it), and the rewards sought: power, influence, and funds for personal/familial enrichment.  The constituents still supply the bulk of the votes (even in the most 'rigged' elections) and a level of informal support.  Occasionally the actor must find ways in which he/she can be perceived as being worthy of those votes and support.  This balancing act often requires carefully crafted messaging and the ability of even display a level of support in legislative support and votes.

2.  The second point of balance that each of these actors must pay attention to is maintaining their role within the overall act on the stage.  That includes choosing how to play off both members of their like 'party' as well as members of the other 'party.'  It is within this ongoing balancing act that much of the high drama that unfolds to feed the newscasts, print media, and Internet blogs and memes.  This is where we see the often overly wrought proclamations of "principle" and "what we stand for" unfold.

Therefore, the Executive's challenge is to find ways (positions, statements, policy declarations, etc.) that can garner enough support from enough of the actors to move forward.  As you may imagine it is a very intricate process and requires its own set of 'balancing' to move forward.  Obtaining the support of an individual actor requires providing that actor a means of maintaining her/his individual balancing acts.  As you can imagine, that is very often a non-trivial task and requires a lot of behind the scenes nods, winks, and hand shakes.

It may seem to be too large and too grand of an act to be played out for any length of time.  However, with a populace that becomes less aware, less able to critically think, and less engaged with each generation, the veneer of authenticity required becomes thinner and thinner as time goes on.

If I had more time, I could easily provide numerous examples of each of the main points above to reinforce its veracity.  However I believe that most people here can easily fill in the blanks from their own memory banks.

If you wish, try to take a fresh look at this current drama unfolding within the framework of the balancing acts of all of the actors on the stage, and see if it becomes more understandable!

Offline bilo

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2019, 10:33:20 pm »

They won’t - at least enough won’t, not for long after a declaration. Keeping the shutdown in place would be correctly viewed as punitive and petty. If McConnell refuses to bring bills to the floor after a declaration, he’ll be ousted.

A continuing shutdown would only be viewed that way by people who don't negotiate deals for a living.

Trump has to keep the pressure on from as many angles as possible.
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Offline edpc

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2019, 11:27:15 pm »
A continuing shutdown would only be viewed that way by people who don't negotiate deals for a living.

Trump has to keep the pressure on from as many angles as possible.


Except now, he only has one angle - declaring the emergency, because he said he would probably almost possibly definitely do it - maybe - but we'll see.


Jan 04 - “I haven’t done it. I may do it. We can call a national emergency and build it very quickly.”

Jan 10 - “I have the absolute right to declare a national emergency,” he continued. “I haven’t done it yet. I may do it. If this doesn’t work out, probably I will do it. I would almost say definitely.”

Jan 14 - "I'm not looking to call a national emergency. This is so simple we shouldn't have to," he told reporters on the South Lawn Monday before leaving for an event in New Orleans.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 11:49:04 pm by edpc »
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2019, 11:43:19 pm »
Has the House passed a bill yet?  The Senate?  Anything for Trump to sign?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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-Ayn Rand-

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Trump rejects Graham's call to reopen government
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 01:52:30 am »
Emjay wrote:
"Not sure what has made Trump back off the nuclear option, but it's become obvious that he needs to do it quickly."

Using the "nuclear option" of "national emergency" to get the wall funding and construction underway should be presented to the public as, "look, we need to do this not only for border security but also because we need to get the government functioning again".