Author Topic: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas  (Read 668 times)

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Online Elderberry

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Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« on: December 14, 2018, 04:01:43 PM »
Grits for Breakfast December 14, 2018

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2018/12/federal-legislation-boosts-raise-age.html

 Texas is one of only four states which still charges 17 year olds as adults. But new federal legislation awaiting President Trump's signature will soon prevent the Lone Star State from housing 17-year olds in adult county jails, providing a big incentive to change their status to match 92% of other states and the federal government. The president is expected to sign the measure.

Dubbed the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act, the bill would force Texas to stop housing 17-year olds in adult jails within three years, with narrow exceptions for rural jails, reported the Marshall Project:

    earlier versions of the law contained a loophole: Juveniles charged as adults could be held in adult jails pretrial. As a result, according to a recent UCLA study, more than 32,000 youth spend time in adult facilities each year.

    The new bill would require that problem be fixed within three years, although it would still contain a “rural exception” letting jurisdictions with no juvenile detention facility hold kids in their adult jail for a period of a few hours while they await transportation elsewhere.

Any county with its own juvenile detention facility, in other words, within three years will be barred from housing 17-year olds in the county jail at all. Counties without a juvie-detention facility could only keep them there for a few hours, and still must keep youth separated by sight and sound from adults, as mandated by the Prison Rape Elimination Act.

Both Texas political parties have endorsed raising the age of adult criminal responsibility in their state party platforms. And the Texas House has approved such legislation each of the last two sessions. But Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick, Senate Criminal Justice Committee Chairman John Whitmire, and the state prosecutors association have so far have opposed the measure.

Now that Texas counties are facing a looming crisis - a federal law mandating they stop traditional incarceration practices for 17-year olds - maybe this legislation will make it over the hump in 2019.
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Offline berdie

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2018, 04:56:06 PM »
I'm divided on this. In my world...it depends on the charge. At 17 these people are not 7 year olds. If it is something aggredious. I'm so sorry that you wasted your life, 17 year old .  But more than likely you knew. The 17 year olds of today are not like the ones of earlier times. I read every day about these young people committing horrendous crimes and I am amazed and appalled.

Online austingirl

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2018, 10:07:48 AM »
Another example of one size fits all national government.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2018, 10:40:52 AM »
And, what is the Constitutional basis for this new law?
Cui bono?

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Offline Oceander

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2018, 08:20:06 PM »
And, what is the Constitutional basis for this new law?

Strings tied to spending.  If Texas doesn’t want to follow the rule, it doesn’t have to, but it forgoes certain federal funds.  Perfectly constitutional.

Online RoosGirl

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2018, 08:24:45 PM »
Strings tied to spending.  If Texas doesn’t want to follow the rule, it doesn’t have to, but it forgoes certain federal funds.  Perfectly constitutional.

As long as it doesn't have to pay those certain federal funds.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2018, 08:26:17 PM »
As long as it doesn't have to pay those certain federal funds.

Huh?  If it pays them, then the funds are state funds, not federal funds.

Online RoosGirl

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2018, 08:27:11 PM »
Huh?  If it pays them, then the funds are state funds, not federal funds.

Don't a portion of the federal funds come from tax payers in Texas?
Truth has to be repeated constantly, because Error also is being preached all the time, and not just by a few, but by the multitude. In the Press and Encyclopaedias, in Schools and Universities, everywhere Error holds sway, feeling happy and comfortable in the knowledge of having Majority on its side.

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Offline Oceander

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2018, 08:30:46 PM »
Don't a portion of the federal funds come from tax payers in Texas?

If you want to play stupid games and indulge in specious rhetoric, we’re done.

Online RoosGirl

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2018, 08:44:14 PM »
If you want to play stupid games and indulge in specious rhetoric, we’re done.

I don't know what you're talking about.  Federal tax money comes from tax payers in each state and then it's funneled back to the states.  If Texas chooses not to follow the rules, and then not receive its portion of federal funds back, that in fact originated in Texas to begin with, they shouldn't have to pay that money to begin with.
Truth has to be repeated constantly, because Error also is being preached all the time, and not just by a few, but by the multitude. In the Press and Encyclopaedias, in Schools and Universities, everywhere Error holds sway, feeling happy and comfortable in the knowledge of having Majority on its side.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Offline Oceander

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2018, 08:48:38 PM »
I don't know what you're talking about.  Federal tax money comes from tax payers in each state and then it's funneled back to the states.  If Texas chooses not to follow the rules, and then not receive its portion of federal funds back, that in fact originated in Texas to begin with, they shouldn't have to pay that money to begin with.

Maybe so, but that’s not the way the Founding fathers understood the matter, and that’s not the way the Constitution works.  The federal government’s right to tax people who earn income from within the jurisdiction of the United States is not tied to whether the government of a particular state within the US chooses to accept federal funds or not. 

Making that sort of ludicrous argument as anything other than a wished for policy change that would require a constitutional amendment is playing stupid games and indulging in specious rhetoric. 

Which are you engaged in?

Online RoosGirl

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2018, 08:56:24 PM »
Maybe so, but that’s not the way the Founding fathers understood the matter, and that’s not the way the Constitution works.  The federal government’s right to tax people who earn income from within the jurisdiction of the United States is not tied to whether the government of a particular state within the US chooses to accept federal funds or not. 

Making that sort of ludicrous argument as anything other than a wished for policy change that would require a constitutional amendment is playing stupid games and indulging in specious rhetoric. 

Which are you engaged in?

Did you want to start calling me a liar again also? 
Truth has to be repeated constantly, because Error also is being preached all the time, and not just by a few, but by the multitude. In the Press and Encyclopaedias, in Schools and Universities, everywhere Error holds sway, feeling happy and comfortable in the knowledge of having Majority on its side.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Offline Oceander

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2018, 09:04:52 PM »
Did you want to start calling me a liar again also? 

If you want to indulge in specious rhetoric, I’m going to call you on it.

The fact that the government of Texas chooses not to accept certain federal funds has no bearing on whether individuals and businesses resident in Texas have to pay the federal taxes that gave rise to those federal funds. 

Saying otherwise is indulging in specious rhetoric.

Texans have to pay federal taxes, regardless of whether or not the government of Texas chooses to accept federal funding that was derived from those federal taxes.

Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2018, 09:12:03 PM »
Maybe so, but that’s not the way the Founding fathers understood the matter, and that’s not the way the Constitution works.  The federal government’s right to tax people who earn income from within the jurisdiction of the United States is not tied to whether the government of a particular state within the US chooses to accept federal funds or not. 

Making that sort of ludicrous argument as anything other than a wished for policy change that would require a constitutional amendment is playing stupid games and indulging in specious rhetoric. 

Which are you engaged in?

Don’t use the Founding Fathers in conjunction with the income tax, an amendment passed long after they did.
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Online RoosGirl

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2018, 09:13:31 PM »
If you want to indulge in specious rhetoric, I’m going to call you on it.

The fact that the government of Texas chooses not to accept certain federal funds has no bearing on whether individuals and businesses resident in Texas have to pay the federal taxes that gave rise to those federal funds. 

Saying otherwise is indulging in specious rhetoric.

Texans have to pay federal taxes, regardless of whether or not the government of Texas chooses to accept federal funding that was derived from those federal taxes.

Politics *is* specious rhetoric.  I would bet if you ask, most conservatives would agree with my position on this.  Since you've been named the second least right-wing member on the forum, it doesn't surprise me that you don't.
Truth has to be repeated constantly, because Error also is being preached all the time, and not just by a few, but by the multitude. In the Press and Encyclopaedias, in Schools and Universities, everywhere Error holds sway, feeling happy and comfortable in the knowledge of having Majority on its side.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Offline Oceander

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2018, 09:54:35 AM »
Don’t use the Founding Fathers in conjunction with the income tax, an amendment passed long after they did.

Actually, they would not have had a problem with the income tax-certainly not as it applied to wages. 

Go read the Income Tax Cases carefully, then you can mouth off about what the Constitution permitted viz. taxes. 

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2018, 11:39:36 AM »
Actually, they would not have had a problem with the income tax-certainly not as it applied to wages. 

Go read the Income Tax Cases carefully, then you can mouth off about what the Constitution permitted viz. taxes.

Is it just not possible for you to disagree amiably?  Why the over-the-top snark? 
Cui bono?

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Offline Oceander

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2018, 11:48:53 AM »
Is it just not possible for you to disagree amiably?  Why the over-the-top snark? 

Certainly, when the poster is in good faith.  Otherwise, it just depends on my mood and how willing I am to tolerate fools. 

Offline massadvj

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2018, 11:55:47 AM »
Personally, I think the society has become too complex for a person to be expected to make adult decisions by the age of 18.  I would support raising the age of adulthood to 21 in all circumstances: contracts (especially guns), voting, alcohol, etc.
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Online RoosGirl

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2018, 12:03:25 PM »
Personally, I think the society has become too complex for a person to be expected to make adult decisions by the age of 18.  I would support raising the age of adulthood to 21 in all circumstances: contracts (especially guns), voting, alcohol, etc.

In what way has society become too complex to understand right and wrong in the context of committing a crime?
Truth has to be repeated constantly, because Error also is being preached all the time, and not just by a few, but by the multitude. In the Press and Encyclopaedias, in Schools and Universities, everywhere Error holds sway, feeling happy and comfortable in the knowledge of having Majority on its side.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2018, 12:06:53 PM »
Personally, I think the society has become too complex for a person to be expected to make adult decisions by the age of 18.  I would support raising the age of adulthood to 21 in all circumstances: contracts (especially guns), voting, alcohol, etc.

I support age 25, instead of 21 or 18 or 17, for legal adulthood.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2018, 12:37:36 PM »
Certainly, when the poster is in good faith.  Otherwise, it just depends on my mood and how willing I am to tolerate fools.

Do you really think they don't believe what they are saying and are just doing it to tweak you? 
Cui bono?

Walk in Wisdom
See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

But the noble make noble plans, and by noble deeds they stand.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2018, 02:51:23 PM »
In what way has society become too complex to understand right and wrong in the context of committing a crime?

I didn't mention crime in my post.  I am not suggesting that 18, 19 and 20 year olds should not be held responsible for crimes.  We currently try 15 year-olds as adults for capital crimes.
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Online RoosGirl

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2018, 03:17:44 PM »
I didn't mention crime in my post.  I am not suggesting that 18, 19 and 20 year olds should not be held responsible for crimes.  We currently try 15 year-olds as adults for capital crimes.

No, you did not mention crime. I did because the article is about that.  I'm not sure you can have it both ways though; not expecting people to function as adults until they are 21, but holding them responsible for crimes committed that are adult in nature.  I think kids (and adults) are being too coddled.
Truth has to be repeated constantly, because Error also is being preached all the time, and not just by a few, but by the multitude. In the Press and Encyclopaedias, in Schools and Universities, everywhere Error holds sway, feeling happy and comfortable in the knowledge of having Majority on its side.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Federal legislation boosts Raise-the-Age prospects in Texas
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2018, 10:11:11 PM »
Actually, they would not have had a problem with the income tax-certainly not as it applied to wages. 

Go read the Income Tax Cases carefully, then you can mouth off about what the Constitution permitted viz. taxes.

Cite your sources.
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