Author Topic: How much of your money should the government take?  (Read 2935 times)

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Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2018, 11:20:21 AM »
1. Consumers of the product(s) or service(s) produced as a component of the sales price of those things
In todays highly competitive marketplace, online competition etc  if you add on to the consumer price people will stop buying from you. Many times corporations have to eat the increased cost. If it was so easy to just increase prices lol

2. Employees of the corporation in the form of reduced pay and benefits

If we did that to our employees today, their butts would be out the door  after their their two week notice. We have had to increase pay and benefits to keep employees.


3. Stake holders in the corporation in the form of reduced ROI

Yep we have taken a pay cut. Guess what? we still pay taxes on profits at the end of the year.


I'm going to tell my wife tonight we don't pay any corporates taxes. She need a laugh.

I work with hundreds of corporations and trust me 1. they just don't increase the price of their product or service, nearly all my business groups are increasing pay and benefits and yes most have less in their own paycheck

@Bigun

You summed up well a lot of what I was thinking. I also see what Bigun is saying. I think reality ends up muddying up these waters and makes it all a lot more complicated than just "Corporations don't pay taxes."
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline mirraflake

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2018, 11:22:29 AM »
As a corp./ company your taxes are part of a business expense.   You "never" passed that cost down to your customers/consumers?

I built an apartment complex back in 2004 andI did well for 10 years . Oil and gas companies came in around 2012 and brought in thousands of temporary workers.  Everyone and their brother built apartment complexes. A gas company built a 70 unit  a few blocks from mine.  The last year or so  all those workers moved on and now there is  a huge glut of apartments. 3/4 of them are empty.

I have had to lower my rents back to 2004 rates to keep people all the while having to pay increase in property tax.

Again tell a business corporation to just increase their pricers and they will laugh themselves silly.

@catfish1957

Offline Bigun

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2018, 11:23:02 AM »
1. Consumers of the product(s) or service(s) produced as a component of the sales price of those things
In todays highly competitive marketplace, online competition etc  if you add on to the consumer price people will stop buying from you. Many times corporations have to eat the increased cost. If it was so easy to just increase prices lol

2. Employees of the corporation in the form of reduced pay and benefits

If we did that to our employees today, their butts would be out the door  after their their two week notice. We have had to increase pay and benefits to keep employees.


3. Stake holders in the corporation in the form of reduced ROI

Yep we have taken a pay cut. Guess what? we still pay taxes on profits at the end of the year.


I'm going to tell my wife tonight we don't pay any corporates taxes. She need a laugh.

I work with hundreds of corporations and trust me 1. they just don't increase the price of their product or service, nearly all my business groups are increasing pay and benefits and yes most have less in their own paycheck

@Bigun

@mirraflake

Thanks for confirming what I said!  Only individuals pay taxes!  Have a great day!

Offline mirraflake

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2018, 11:26:46 AM »
@mirraflake

Thanks for confirming what I said!  Only individuals pay taxes!  Have a great day!

You are playing word games.
@Bigun

Offline Bigun

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2018, 11:32:01 AM »
You are playing word games.
@Bigun

@mirraflake

No sir!  Simply acquainting folks with economic FACTS!

Offline Bigun

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2018, 11:39:23 AM »
You summed up well a lot of what I was thinking. I also see what Bigun is saying. I think reality ends up muddying up these waters and makes it all a lot more complicated than just "Corporations don't pay taxes."

@Dexter

No! It really isn't!  Only individuals pay taxes.

Offline mirraflake

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2018, 11:47:59 AM »
@Dexter

No! It really isn't!  Only individuals pay taxes.

So, I just purchased a new copy machine for my business that  was me paying for it and not the corporation? 

You really have a weird way of looking at things..    And yes corporations pay taxes.  They only pay no taxes if the gov't does not tax corporations.

I'm trying to figure out your weird fixation argument that only individuals pay taxes.  My question is why and who cares?

@Bigun

Offline Bigun

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2018, 11:53:11 AM »
So, I just purchased a new copy machine for my business that  was me paying for it and not the corporation? 

You really have a weird way of looking at things..    And yes corporations pay taxes.  They only pay no taxes if the gov't does not tax corporations.

I'm trying to figure out your weird fixation argument that only individuals pay taxes.  My question is why and who cares?

@Bigun


The copy machine goes on the debit side of your ledger just like the light bill, gas bill, and your taxes and compliance costs!

If you can't see that then there is no help for you.  Those are FACTS! You can think whatever you like but you cannot alter that.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2018, 11:57:32 AM »


You really have a weird way of looking at things..    And yes corporations pay taxes.  They only pay no taxes if the gov't does not tax corporations.

I'm trying to figure out your weird fixation argument that only individuals pay taxes.  My question is why and who cares?

@Bigun

So, I just purchased a new copy machine for my business that  was me paying for it and not the corporation? 

The manufacturer of that copier sold it to a retailer at a higher price to cover the manufacturers tax burden.
The retailer sold it to you at a higher price to cover the retailers tax burden.
If you purchased this for your business, you too will add it in to your cost of doing business, which you have a choice to either absorb, or increase the rates you charge your costumer to recoup the cost, as you do now when you pay taxes.

See?

The copier manufacture does pay taxes, but he passes that cost to the retailer.
The retailer pays taxes, but he passed that cost to you.
You will pay taxes, and it is up to you to pass that cost onto customers.
I would think if you stop and think about it, you already do this, and have since day one.

@Bigun is correct.

Offline mirraflake

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2018, 11:59:38 AM »
The copy machine goes on the debit side of your ledger just like the light bill, gas bill, and your taxes and compliance costs!



Wait I though you said only individuals paid corporate tax?   So now it's going onto the debit side of my ledger with all my other cost?

@Bigun

Offline Bigun

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2018, 12:02:40 PM »
Wait I though you said only individuals paid corporate tax?   So now it's going onto the debit side of my ledger with all my other cost?

@Bigun

@mirraflake

YOU seem to be the one trying to play word games here but it isn't working.   :seeya:
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:48:35 PM by Bigun »

Online EasyAce

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2018, 12:46:37 PM »
What it was constitutionally authorized to fund.

Which is a tiny fraction of what it is doing these days.
@DB
King George III was a piker compared to King Washington DC.

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Offline DB

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2018, 02:25:29 PM »
Wait I though you said only individuals paid corporate tax?   So now it's going onto the debit side of my ledger with all my other cost?

@Bigun

You don't normally pay taxes on the debt side of your ledger.

Now...

Capital equipment is more complicated than it has been made out to be on this thread. Higher cost capital equipment generally has to be depreciated over time on the businesses tax return. So it takes time to offset the expense for tax purposes. Some equipment (computers for example) can become obsolete faster than the government allows you to depreciate it. And with the addition of inflation over the time it takes to depreciate something you may never fully offset your tax burden on the purchase.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2018, 04:36:01 PM »
Long story short. We are getting royally screwed by public education in Texas and I would be very surprised to find it any different elsewhere.

@Bigun
That's right... Not to mention the always superior education available from pretty well any private school. When I fell on hard times and could no longer afford Christian school for my kids, they literally loafed for nearly two years before encountering 'new' information in the public system.

There is no question about it - Like with just about everything else, the private sector does a far superior job when compared to government... and at a much better price.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2018, 04:38:42 PM »
No public education would lead to high rates of illiteracy in the states. Not everybody can afford to pay for a private school. You think crime is bad now? Just wait until people have even less access to education.

No... In fact, home-schooled kids invariably get better grades than public school kids do.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2018, 04:39:50 PM »
If that can be done without crippling public education I am fine with it. I care about the results. I want people in the United States to be the most educated in the world.

Then get government out of it.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2018, 04:44:51 PM »
My wife and I own 3 companies (corporations)   Trust me we pay taxes at the end of the corporate year.

@Bigun

@mirraflake

If you are making profit, then the costs of those taxes are obviously transmitted to your clients.

Offline skeeter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2018, 04:53:11 PM »
@mirraflake

If you are making profit, then the costs of those taxes are obviously transmitted to your clients.

In some industries, usually ones in the business of selling commodities, it is not possible to raise prices concomitant with corporate or any other tax increases.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2018, 04:55:36 PM »
In some industries, usually ones in the business of selling commodities, it is not possible to raise prices concomitant with corporate or any other tax increases.

True, but Roamer's point still stands - if you have enough $ left over to take profits, then someone is paying all of those costs including the taxes.  That would be the customers.
Cui bono?

Walk in Wisdom
See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

But the noble make noble plans, and by noble deeds they stand.

Offline skeeter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2018, 04:59:04 PM »
True, but Roamer's point still stands - if you have enough $ left over to take profits, then someone is paying all of those costs including the taxes.  That would be the customers.

I'm involved in a business that can only charge a certain amount or I'll lose my customers. True, for the time being I'm able to pay my taxes and make some profit.

But with each increase in taxes, rent, etc I take home a little less. So its hard for me to accept his/her point, philosophically anyway.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 05:01:15 PM by skeeter »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2018, 05:01:34 PM »
In some industries, usually ones in the business of selling commodities, it is not possible to raise prices concomitant with corporate or any other tax increases.

I understand that - But you are still making profit, or you would cease doing business. You are merely making less profit. EVERYTHING, from Schedule C, to Depreciation, to Taxes... all of it is figured into that bottom line - IOW, EVERYTHING is figured in and passed on as cost to your clients in order to produce that profit. The entire cost is built into the end product.

@Bigun  is right. Any business structure is merely a mechanism, The end is paid for by the consumer. 

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2018, 05:07:52 PM »
I'm involved in a business that can only charge a certain amount or I'll lose my customers. True, for the time being I'm able to pay my taxes and make some profit.

But with each increase in taxes, rent, etc I take home a little less. So its hard for me to accept his/her point, philosophically anyway.

I feel your pain. But you are talking about profitability, even yet. If you can charge no more, and there is an increase on the debit side, your margin (profit) goes down. Inevitably, at some point, the margin is less than the effort it is worth, and you would be better off folding up and getting into something else... Or increase the price regardless and see how it goes... Either way, you are merely playing with the profit side. All the costs are necessarily passed on.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2018, 05:26:23 PM »
I'm involved in a business that can only charge a certain amount or I'll lose my customers. True, for the time being I'm able to pay my taxes and make some profit.

But with each increase in taxes, rent, etc I take home a little less. So its hard for me to accept his/her point, philosophically anyway.

I understand that, but at the point you can't pass the costs on to your customers, what happens?
Cui bono?

Walk in Wisdom
See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

But the noble make noble plans, and by noble deeds they stand.

Offline Bigun

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2018, 05:39:41 PM »
I'm involved in a business that can only charge a certain amount or I'll lose my customers. True, for the time being I'm able to pay my taxes and make some profit.

But with each increase in taxes, rent, etc I take home a little less. So its hard for me to accept his/her point, philosophically anyway.

@skeeter The hard fact is that the three places I spoke of earlier on this thread are the only places costs can accrue.  When a business can no longer recover all the  costs of doing business and enough extra to keep the stakeholders happy it makes no sense to keep it going.  Unfortunately some have found a way around that hard rule of economics via government subsidies.  The corn ethanol industry being a prime example.

Offline skeeter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2018, 05:42:55 PM »
I understand that, but at the point you can't pass the costs on to your customers, what happens?

We walk out on our lease.


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