Author Topic: How much of your money should the government take?  (Read 2987 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 27,636
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2018, 05:44:22 PM »
We walk out on our lease.

Because you can't pass the costs on to your customers. 
Cui bono?

Walk in Wisdom
See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

But the noble make noble plans, and by noble deeds they stand.

Online skeeter

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,686
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2018, 05:46:19 PM »
Because you can't pass the costs on to your customers.

Correct.

I've lost track of the reason for this line of discussion so I went back and looked at Bigun's original point. Its true, corporations typically don't pay taxes, they pass along those costs.

The distinction is lost on an individual who happens to have set up their small business a 'corporation' in order to limit personal liability. To them (me) there is very little difference between tax on them as an individual and tax on them as a 'corporation'.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 05:59:24 PM by skeeter »

Online mirraflake

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,154
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2018, 05:52:36 PM »
Unfortunately some have found a way around that hard rule of economics via government subsidies.  The corn ethanol industry being a prime example.

Farm subsidies to farmers keep food prices stable and realtively cheap.

 If the price of corn per bushel dropped really low and there was silos full of it  selling less than what is cost to plant and harvest , no farmers would plant it the following year and then there would be a shortage the following year(s) and the price would skyrocket.

You would have huge price swings in food and also worse yet, food shortages. One year a can of corn would be 25 cents , the next $8.00

Farmers also know by the price being stable they can purchase that new piece of equipment knowing the following years they have a market to sell their crops or at least enough profit to pay for the equipment. Farmers have enough to worry about, the weather, than worrying if the crop in their silos would sell

Our  economy could not survive with food shortages or huge price swings. Talk about  a hot mess, Third World style

@Bigun

« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 06:20:57 PM by mirraflake »

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 13,461
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2018, 06:09:20 PM »
The current conversation(s) are tangential to the original topic... But useful because It can lead the uninitiated to the fact that sticking it to businesses and the rich inevitably means sticking it to yourself. Every single regulation, every single tax, every single thing raked off that bottom line profit are things that !!!!YOU!!! pay for in increased retail price.

Returning to that original question with that in mind might induce epiphany.

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 27,636
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2018, 06:36:54 PM »
Correct.

I've lost track of the reason for this line of discussion so I went back and looked at Bigun's original point. Its true, corporations typically don't pay taxes, they pass along those costs.

The distinction is lost on an individual who happens to have set up their small business a 'corporation' in order to limit personal liability. To them (me) there is very little difference between tax on them as an individual and tax on them as a 'corporation'.

Oh, I see what the issue was now.  OK, we're now in agreement.
Cui bono?

Walk in Wisdom
See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

But the noble make noble plans, and by noble deeds they stand.

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 13,461
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2018, 06:46:29 PM »
Outside of the head-fake of personal income tax, and outside of the previously demonstrated insidious and exponential taxation and regulation of business mechanisms, I will add another aspect:

Every authority granted to government is authority taken away from the people.
Liberty IS responsibility.
When you are no longer responsible for the care of your elders, you have lost liberty.
When you are no longer responsible for the education of your children, you have lost liberty.
When you are no longer responsible for your own defense, you have lost liberty.

Law is by and large, written for the lawless. Taxation is the price of that law.

With that in mind, 'How much of your money should the government take? ' is answered with another question: How much liberty are you willing to give up?


Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 30,465
  • The income tax: Root of all evil!
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2018, 06:53:59 PM »
Outside of the head-fake of personal income tax, and outside of the previously demonstrated insidious and exponential taxation and regulation of business mechanisms, I will add another aspect:

Every authority granted to government is authority taken away from the people.
Liberty IS responsibility.
When you are no longer responsible for the care of your elders, you have lost liberty.
When you are no longer responsible for the education of your children, you have lost liberty.
When you are no longer responsible for your own defense, you have lost liberty.

Law is by and large, written for the lawless. Taxation is the price of that law.

With that in mind, 'How much of your money should the government take? ' is answered with another question: How much liberty are you willing to give up?

@roamer_1

An EXCELLENY post to which I will add only one thing at this time.  When you take a government subsidy it comes with many strings attached all of which infringe on your liberty

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 13,461
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2018, 06:59:06 PM »
@roamer_1

An EXCELLENY post to which I will add only one thing at this time.  When you take a government subsidy it comes with many strings attached all of which infringe on your liberty

 That's right. :beer:


Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 30,465
  • The income tax: Root of all evil!
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2018, 07:02:11 PM »
I can't say it any better than it was said by an old white man who left this world a LONG time ago now.

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

Daniel Webster


Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 13,461
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2018, 07:05:45 PM »
I can't say it any better than it was said by an old white man who left this world a LONG time ago now.

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

Daniel Webster

Oh, man! Is that ever a quote for the ages!

Online InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,840
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2018, 07:23:11 PM »
Farm subsidies to farmers keep food prices stable and realtively cheap.

 If the price of corn per bushel dropped really low and there was silos full of it  selling less than what is cost to plant and harvest , no farmers would plant it the following year and then there would be a shortage the following year(s) and the price would skyrocket.

You would have huge price swings in food and also worse yet, food shortages. One year a can of corn would be 25 cents , the next $8.00

Farmers also know by the price being stable they can purchase that new piece of equipment knowing the following years they have a market to sell their crops or at least enough profit to pay for the equipment. Farmers have enough to worry about, the weather, than worrying if the crop in their silos would sell

Our  economy could not survive with food shortages or huge price swings. Talk about  a hot mess, Third World style

@Bigun

That's what the futures markets are for.
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Offline Fishrrman

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 16,167
    • Fishrrman Speaks!
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2018, 07:30:47 PM »
Dexter is a leftist and he's tryin' to trap y'all.

How much should they "take"?

ZERO.
Nothing.
Zilch.
Nada.
Nicht.

How's that?

How much did the feds "take" from individuals before the 16th...?

Online Axeslinger

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2018, 07:47:21 PM »
Fabulous conversation gang and why this place rocks.  And even though @Dexter is just trying to kick a hornets nest, it’s still been a nice productive thread...oh and @Bigun and @roamer_1  et al are absolutely correct.
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Online Dexter

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,943
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2018, 08:15:29 PM »
No... In fact, home-schooled kids invariably get better grades than public school kids do.

Home schooling well requires one parent to not work usually, and they also need to be good at actually educating; not everybody can do that. A lot of households have two working parents and a lot of parents are not qualified to teach. If you got rid of public education illiteracy rates in this country would skyrocket.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 08:16:01 PM by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online Dexter

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,943
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2018, 08:18:56 PM »
And even though @Dexter is just trying to kick a hornets nest

I'm not exactly one to troll, as you may have noticed. I like good conversations on touchy subjects. These things need to be talked about.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online Dexter

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,943
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #90 on: November 08, 2018, 08:23:52 PM »
he's tryin' to trap y'all.

If your logic is sound you won't be trapped by anything. I think my presence leads to a lot of good conversation. Do you disagree?
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,840
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #91 on: November 08, 2018, 08:30:46 PM »
Home schooling well requires one parent to not work usually, and they also need to be good at actually educating; not everybody can do that. A lot of households have two working parents and a lot of parents are not qualified to teach. If you got rid of public education illiteracy rates in this country would skyrocket.

Or some that are good at teaching could take in a few neighbor kids for home schooling for a small fee.  Imagine how much more we could do for our kids if we didn't have to send all those tax dollars to DC to be redistributed, but instead used our education money directly on our childrens' education.  If you got rid of public education literacy rates in this country would skyrocket.
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Online Dexter

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,943
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2018, 08:33:19 PM »
Or some that are good at teaching could take in a few neighbor kids for home schooling for a small fee.  Imagine how much more we could do for our kids if we didn't have to send all those tax dollars to DC to be redistributed, but instead used our education money directly on our childrens' education.  If you got rid of public education literacy rates in this country would skyrocket.

No matter how you slice it removing free access to education would increase rates of illiteracy, especially because they'd have no way to make education mandatory for children at that point. To me this seems incredibly obvious. In no universe would the removal of public education increase literacy rates.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 08:34:20 PM by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online Axeslinger

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2018, 08:37:58 PM »
I'm not exactly one to troll, as you may have noticed. I like good conversations on touchy subjects. These things need to be talked about.
@Dexter

I’ll agree with that when I take note of you conceding a point that you hadn’t previously.   

Please note, that was not an attack, you may have already done so.  And I will also give you credit for engaging in actual conversation.  I’m just saying that I’ve yet to meet an intellectually honest lib, so my spidey sense is on high alert.
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Online InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,840
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2018, 08:43:20 PM »
No matter how you slice it removing free access to education would increase rates of illiteracy, especially because they'd have no way to make education mandatory for children at that point. To me this seems incredibly obvious. In no universe would the removal of public education increase literacy rates.
 

There are plenty of "solutions" (to non-existent problems) if you just can't stand allowing parents to raise their children without proper national government oversight.  Expensive, inefficient, and often incompetent public schools aren't exactly producing a literacy rate to be proud of, or kids that even want to be literate.


My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Online Dexter

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,943
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2018, 08:44:50 PM »
@Dexter

I’ll agree with that when I take note of you conceding a point that you hadn’t previously.   

Please note, that was not an attack, you may have already done so.  And I will also give you credit for engaging in actual conversation.  I’m just saying that I’ve yet to meet an intellectually honest lib, so my spidey sense is on high alert.

Have you ever met a liberal that's against gun regulations? How about one that wants to keep out ALL IMMIGRANTS unless they make enough money to pay into the Federal income tax? Have you met one that thinks a private business should be allowed to tell gay people to piss off and get the hell out of their store? Every one of those positions I came to through discussion with conservatives. Sometimes I just want to see what y'all say, and sometimes I still disagree but let it go because I don't want the quality of discussion to devolve.


EDIT: How many liberals do you know that want to build the wall? How many are considering voting for Trump in 2020?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 08:51:20 PM by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online Dexter

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,943
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2018, 08:45:35 PM »
 

There are plenty of "solutions" (to non-existent problems) if you just can't stand allowing parents to raise their children without proper national government oversight.  Expensive, inefficient, and often incompetent public schools aren't exactly producing a literacy rate to be proud of, or kids that even want to be literate.

Our public education isn't great, but I don't think scrapping it is the solution.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online Axeslinger

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2018, 08:54:48 PM »
Our public education isn't great, but I don't think scrapping it is the solution.
Nope...just gotta scrap it at the federal level.   Like everything else, let there’s be 50 little petri dishes to see what works and what doesn’t AND that also gives people the option of voting with their feet if they don’t like the education their kids are receiving.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 07:28:45 AM by Axeslinger »
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Online Dexter

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,943
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #98 on: November 08, 2018, 08:56:03 PM »
Nope...just gotta scrap it at the federal level.   Like everything else, let there’s be 50 little peteindishes to see what works and what doesn’t AND that also gives people the option of voting with their feet if they don’t like the education their kids are receiving isn’t up to par.

I am all about giving power to the states. I just want to make sure all the little ones can get an education; it's important.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 30,465
  • The income tax: Root of all evil!
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2018, 08:58:45 PM »
I am all about giving power to the states. I just want to make sure all the little ones can get an education; it's important.

What they get in Public schools these day is NOT an education! It's an indoctrination!


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf