In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...

[Mesaclone]

@Right_in_Virginia

RIV, not sure how strongly we disagree on this...but you are right that my statement is a bit hyperbolic and does play into some exaggerated stereotypes about the president. In that light, I have likely overstated my description of the President's perspective. I do think the President understands much of what he is facing...and I do think he has a plan and intention for fighting this battle. BUT...I also fear that he underestimates or does not clearly see the scope and intensity of the deep state/media/intelligentsia Triad that he is facing. He IS the right man at the right time to fight this fight, in part because he doesn't fully know or care how powerful the enemy is.

[Bigun]

Superb. 

IF we don't hang together on the core fight that really matters -- the ability to continue to choose our own government rather than have it chosen for us -- we're all going to hang separately.

That is a statement I can definitely agree with!   

I have yet to ever vote for President Trump but that matters not at all now!  This Republic is in GRAVE danger and I'm going to do EVERYTHING in my power to save it!

[INVAR]

That's about what I expected, but find it disappointing all the same.

Seven times seventy.

That comes AFTER repentance dear.  Not before.

And even still, the CONSEQUENCES for breaking trust is not automatically regained without works befitting earning that trust.

I got nothing but a lecture and not a thing said or suggested that would give me any cause to believe they do not hate my beliefs, principles, foundations and guts any less than the Marxist Left does.

[Emjay]

As I said above, given the amount of vitriol directed at the core principles and beliefs that I hold as foundational and necessary for liberty to exist at all, I do not trust you or Trump's fanbase with support, given the amount of crap flung upon it by you and Trump's allies, on this board, elsewhere and in the meat world.

I hear the same contempt and disdain for what my core principles are as I hear from the rabid secular Leftists.

Trust has been killed, so the consequences are that you are going to have to figure out how to 'win' without people like me.

If trust is killed, you killed it, @INVAR   You are a <NOPE> and, by the way, we WILL figure out how to win without people like you.

[XenaLee]

That comes AFTER repentance dear.  Not before.

And even still, the CONSEQUENCES for breaking trust is not automatically regained without works befitting earning that trust.

I got nothing but a lecture and not a thing said or suggested that would give me any cause to believe they do not hate my beliefs, principles, foundations and guts any less than the Marxist Left does.

And the difference between your stance and mine is.... again... I don't give a damn what "they hate".  I have to do what I need to do in order to feel that I did my best and at least tried to thwart the Marxist Left by voting against them this November, in 2020, and from now on (as long as I am able to vote).  Anything less would be unacceptable for my peace of mind, no matter what happens in the future.

[corbe]

    Don't be modest @Emjay tell him what you really think!!!  /s

[INVAR]

You seem to have created a caricature of "Trump" supporters based on some dubious extrapolation from hyperbolic comments made during a bitter election cycle (By the President and by some of his supporters). That is a poor way to analyze ANY group of people...or any individual President...and its led you to some silly condemnations of Trump and Trump supporters.

Not JUST during the election cycle.  It continues to this very moment and it has finally gotten down to the core of argument - to the motivating foundational principles necessary for liberty that are held in the same exact contempt and hatred that the Left holds those things.

There is no trust.  Without that, why should I stand alongside those who hold my views of liberty in the same hatred and contempt that the Left does?

[Emjay]

And the difference between your stance and mine is.... again... I don't give a damn what "they hate".  I have to do what I need to do in order to feel that I did my best and at least tried to thwart the Marxist Left by voting against them this November, in 2020, and from now on (as long as I am able to vote).  Anything less would be unacceptable for my peace of mind, no matter what happens in the future.

I know @XenaLee  and I agree.  Sometimes it's not just about us but about the good of America.

[INVAR]

If trust is killed, you killed it, @INVAR   You are a <NOPE> and, by the way, we WILL figure out how to win without people like you.

Thank you for making my entire point @Emjay

Why should I support your cause with that kind of contempt?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

There is no trust.  Without that, why should I stand alongside those who hold my views of liberty in the same hatred and contempt that the Left does?

Very good question.  I think your characterization is a bit hyperbolic in terms of the scope of the disagreement on substance, (not everyone is equally supportive of Trump or for the same reasons).  However, to answer your question.

Those who support Trump, unlike the leftists, still generally support the idea of a representative democracy, and wish to respect the results of elections even when we disagree with them.  So at a minimum, you at least still have a chance to have your views prevail through the democratic process.  The leftists are no longer willing to do this.  They want to turn this into a far left country, and are willing to run roughshod over the free choices of citizens if necessary to implement and enforce that.

[Right_in_Virginia]

@Right_in_Virginia

RIV, not sure how strongly we disagree on this...but you are right that my statement is a bit hyperbolic and does play into some exaggerated stereotypes about the president. In that light, I have likely overstated my description of the President's perspective. I do think the President understands much of what he is facing...and I do think he has a plan and intention for fighting this battle. BUT...I also fear that he underestimates or does not clearly see the scope and intensity of the deep state/media/intelligentsia Triad that he is facing. He IS the right man at the right time to fight this fight, in part because he doesn't fully know or care how powerful the enemy is.

Methinks any underestimates of what he's facing and what is trying to destroy his Presidency and his life are long gone @Mesaclone   And in a strange turn of events, we have Mr. Mueller to thank.   

[INVAR]

And the difference between your stance and mine is.... again... I don't give a damn what "they hate".  I have to do what I need to do in order to feel that I did my best and at least tried to thwart the Marxist Left by voting against them this November, in 2020, and from now on (as long as I am able to vote).  Anything less would be unacceptable for my peace of mind, no matter what happens in the future.

I'm in a much different place at this point in time Xena.  You are where I was a few years ago politically. 

The real solution is not going to come via politics - we are way past rectifying that as each day's progression into madness demonstrates.

But that said, you must do what you feel is necessary to look yourself in the mirror and believe you did what you could to forestall where we are arriving.

I've just moved on from believing that the way to go about it was what I had been doing for 3 decades.

[Mesaclone]

As I said above, given the amount of vitriol directed at the core principles and beliefs that I hold as foundational and necessary for liberty to exist at all, I do not trust you or Trump's fanbase with support, given the amount of crap flung upon it by you and Trump's allies, on this board, elsewhere and in the meat world.

I hear the same contempt and disdain for what my core principles are as I hear from the rabid secular Leftists.

Trust has been killed, so the consequences are that you are going to have to figure out how to 'win' without people like me.

Some axioms are timeless and always apropos. Consider this one:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Arthashastra

There is wise strategy, and then there is what you're doing. Perhaps you should take some time and read a bit of Sun Tzu.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Also, I just want to say that on those occasions when the various sides in here may actually seem to agree on something, that is perhaps not the best time to try to score rhetorical points on how the other side has finally seen things "the right way".

Concessions, even small ones, should be accepted graciously and with respect.

[XenaLee]

I'm in a much different place at this point in time Xena.  You are where I was a few years ago politically. 

The real solution is not going to come via politics - we are way past rectifying that as each day's progression into madness demonstrates.

But that said, you must do what you feel is necessary to look yourself in the mirror and believe you did what you could to forestall where we are arriving.

I've just moved on from believing that the way to go about it was what I had been doing for 3 decades.

And that is your option, your belief, your choice and your opinion, which we are all entitled to.  It's just a shame that 'some' here can't accept that reality for others they disagree with.

[Jazzhead]

  We are a constitutional republic where most representatives are elected democratically.

And that's exactly what I meant, Sanguine, when I said we are a "representative democracy".  No difference of opinion, just a desire to use fewer words rather than a mouthful.   

[Sanguine]

That comes AFTER repentance dear.  Not before.

And even still, the CONSEQUENCES for breaking trust is not automatically regained without works befitting earning that trust.

I got nothing but a lecture and not a thing said or suggested that would give me any cause to believe they do not hate my beliefs, principles, foundations and guts any less than the Marxist Left does.

@INVAR, Really dear?  Where does it say repentance first?

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

[Mesaclone]

Not JUST during the election cycle.  It continues to this very moment and it has finally gotten down to the core of argument - to the motivating foundational principles necessary for liberty that are held in the same exact contempt and hatred that the Left holds those things.

There is no trust.  Without that, why should I stand alongside those who hold my views of liberty in the same hatred and contempt that the Left does?

Absurd is the word I'd use. There are NT's and Pro Trump folks who "continue to this very moment" to say harsh things about each other...you included. Some of that is reasonable debate and much of it is just childish bickering. But nobody I've seen here is anything but a strong advocate for our "motivating foundational principles"...and certainly do not hold such things in contempt.  The people I've met here are virtually ALL people of strong faith, and those judging them otherwise should look inward.

It is true that not everyone here holds your precise religious beliefs, nor fully concurs with your view of the role of religion in government, but EVERYONE here that I've seen holds their faith dear and believes that faith in god is an important quality in our leadership.

You seem to paint disagreement as contempt and believe that anyone who varies...to ANY degree...from your view of religion and its interaction in government...to be the enemy, or to be unworthy of alliance. If so, you can never have any role in Republican governance...because 97% of the rest of the country, from that lofty and narcissistic perch, are either apostates,  Satanists, heretics or faithless curs. That's a ridiculous position...only a true fool would lump folks like RIV, Emjay, BillMartin, myself and a many other here with "Leftists". You've become akin to the Spanish Inquisition in your politics.

[Sanguine]

And that's exactly what I meant, Sanguine, when I said we are a "representative democracy".  No difference of opinion, just a desire to use fewer words rather than a mouthful.   

Jazzhead, since the term democracy has been co-opted to further the leftist, anti-American and anti-west agenda, it's really not an appropriate term.  Nor is it an appropriate term, by definition.

[Mod5]

Take it outside.  We just mopped the floors and don't need another pissing contest.

[Mesaclone]

Also, I just want to say that on those occasions when the various sides in here may actually seem to agree on something, that is perhaps not the best time to try to score rhetorical points on how the other side has finally seen things "the right way".

Concessions, even small ones, should be accepted graciously and with respect.

Major Bill, that's a good reminder and I will take it to heart.

@Maj. Bill Martin

[Bigun]

Very good question.  I think your characterization is a bit hyperbolic in terms of the scope of the disagreement on substance, (not everyone is equally supportive of Trump or for the same reasons).  However, to answer your question.

Those who support Trump, unlike the leftists, still generally support the idea of a representative democracy Constitutional Republic, and wish to respect the results of elections even when we disagree with them.  So at a minimum, you at least still have a chance to have your views prevail through the democratic process.  The leftists are no longer willing to do this.  They want to turn this into a far left country, and are willing to run roughshod over the free choices of citizens if necessary to implement and enforce that.

@Maj. Bill Martin

Fixed that for you!  I don't want anything to do with any form of Democracy!

[INVAR]

Very good question.  I think your characterization is a bit hyperbolic in terms of the scope of the disagreement on substance, (not everyone is equally supportive of Trump or for the same reasons). 

I do not remember if you were on the same threads that were arguing about foundational precepts of morality necessary for liberty as intended for us.  The disagreement was on the substance of whether or not those moral precepts were an evil and needing to be discarded and silenced for political unity or upheld without compromise.

The argument boiled down to a fight between freedom and liberty, and it appears in all the argumentation that freedom is preferred over liberty.  I do not consider the revelation coming out of those arguments to be hyperbolic. The comments were direct.  The difference is the fact that a few of us believe they are vital and necessary for liberty to exist - and others see them as every bit an intrinsic evil as what the Left believes them to be.

Those who support Trump, unlike the leftists, still generally support the idea of a representative democracy, and wish to respect the results of elections even when we disagree with them.

Well, I am not interested in helping to fight for a 'representative democracy'.  That is where we have already been taken over the last 100 years.

They want to turn this into a far left country, and are willing to run roughshod over the free choices of citizens if necessary to implement and enforce that.

And I have heard the "Trump right" advocating the same exact thing in their own way and manner.   Both do so in the name of 'preservation' and 'freedom'.

[Mesaclone]

Methinks any underestimates of what he's facing and what is trying to destroy his Presidency and his life are long gone @Mesaclone   And in a strange turn of events, we have Mr. Mueller to thank.   

That is an excellent point...I had not thought of the Mueller investigation in that light. I think you are right that it has served as something of an awakening for the President...I hope you are right that he now has a full picture of what is seeking to overthrow him.

[INVAR]

Some axioms are timeless and always apropos. Consider this one:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Arthashastra

There is wise strategy, and then there is what you're doing. Perhaps you should take some time and read a bit of Sun Tzu.

I follow this axiom:

"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" - Amos 3:3