Author Topic: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy  (Read 3084 times)

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2018, 08:01:26 pm »
Always thought 'neocon' meant, sort of like "new money'... up and coming generations...never Jewish.

WTF do I know?    (that's rhetorical)   :laugh:

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2018, 08:21:13 pm »
I'm not saying that we should ban the use of the word neocon. It depends on how it's used. Context is everything.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2018, 08:29:02 pm »
I always considered 'neoconservative' as referring to those classic democrats who, seeing the political handwriting on the wall, joined the 'conservative movement' in the wake of Reagan's obvious success.

They were especially impressed by his muscular foreign policy. The other distinguishing characteristic they share is they kept most of their socially liberal proclivities, unfortunately, and have always disliked 'paleocons'.

The fact that many who met this description were of jewish heritage was incidental.

I realize others have used the term as an antisemetic dog whistle, though, so I avoid use of the term.

Yes, and since @Absalom's statement referenced Communist Russian Jews, antisemitism is a reasonable conclusion:

Quote
In my judgement, he is another of the neo-con (men) gang, which includes Kristol,
Podhoretz and many others at the Nat'l Review, Weekley Standard and Commentary.
These are the offspring of post WW1 Russian Jewish Marxists who lectured at NYC
Universities; all devotees of Leon Trotsky (real name Davidovish Bronstein).
This offspring evolved and morphed in time but never lost touch w/their radical
roots, which is apparent in their politics and the ideas they promote.

To quote another Jew: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2018, 08:31:41 pm »
That's what I thought too...never associated it with Jewish faith.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2018, 08:37:27 pm »
I always considered 'neoconservative' as referring to those classic democrats who, seeing the political handwriting on the wall, joined the 'conservative movement' in the wake of Reagan's obvious success.
If I remember right, the first of those thinkers to be called (or to call themselves) neoconservatives in the 1970s were Nathan Glazer, Irving Kristol, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Seymour Martin Lipset, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Norman Podhoretz (who steered Commentary away from the left during that decade), and Ben Wattenberg. (His book, The Real Majority, is thought by some to have been the earliest neoconservative argument in full book form.) Their turns toward it began when the New Left drove them to endorse Washington Sen. Henry Jackson for the presidency over South Dakota Sen. George McGovern in 1972, seeing McGovern as a New Left co-opting and Jackson as anything but, especially in foreign policy. The socialist intellectual Michael Harrington first hung the tag "neoconservative" on them, but Irving Kristol fashioned it into a badge with his famous remark about a neoconservative being a liberal mugged by reality and in his 1979 essay, "Confessions of a True, Self-Confessed Neoconservative"---written in response to Peter Steinfels' book-length attack on the early neoconservatives. (Kristol, in fact, called his second anthology of writings---his first had been, of course, Two Cheers for Capitalism---Reflections of a Neoconservative in 1983.

The original neoconservatives themselves weren't exactly a movement. The aforesaid Irving Kristol essay included another once-famous wisecrack, "When two neoconservatives meet they are more likely to argue with one another than to confer or conspire." James Q. Wilson, himself an early neoconservative, noted that those neoconservatives had no "manifesto, credo, religion, flag, anthem or secret handshake." And none of those original neoconservatives ever argued with that.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 08:39:35 pm by EasyAce »


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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2018, 09:13:41 pm »
Always thought 'neocon' meant, sort of like "new money'... up and coming generations...never Jewish.

Neo-con is an accurate and necessary description. Neo-con was coined by moderates for moderates in an attempt to distinguish themselves as different from Conservatism, while trying to hi-jack the popular branding of Conservatism.

Neoconservatism is always 'kinder, gentler conservatism' (one of their slogans), but inevitably divides the factions of Reagan Conservatism - Preferring the Christian Right for their votes, and the Military for their uses in nation building, but eschewing fiscal conservatism, and especially the Goldwater Libertarianism that all true Conservatism is founded upon.

To wit:
Neoconservatism comes from the moderate wing of the Republican party (the Bushes, McCain, etc), and is not conservative, but pays lip service to Conservative causes.

Conservatism comes from the Goldwater wing, and holds to libertarianism, principles, and merit.

You can tell the difference most distinctly, because Conservatives tend to get along with the principles of Libertarianism, and demand fiscal responsibility, and Neo-cons do not.

To banish the term would be a mistake.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2018, 09:25:25 pm »
Neo-con is an accurate and necessary description. Neo-con was coined by moderates for moderates in an attempt to distinguish themselves as different from Conservatism, while trying to hi-jack the popular branding of Conservatism.

Neoconservatism is always 'kinder, gentler conservatism' (one of their slogans), but inevitably divides the factions of Reagan Conservatism - Preferring the Christian Right for their votes, and the Military for their uses in nation building, but eschewing fiscal conservatism, and especially the Goldwater Libertarianism that all true Conservatism is founded upon.

To wit:
Neoconservatism comes from the moderate wing of the Republican party (the Bushes, McCain, etc), and is not conservative, but pays lip service to Conservative causes.

Conservatism comes from the Goldwater wing, and holds to libertarianism, principles, and merit.

You can tell the difference most distinctly, because Conservatives tend to get along with the principles of Libertarianism, and demand fiscal responsibility, and Neo-cons do not.

To banish the term would be a mistake.

Thanks for the details/info...but the definitions/examples you set forth were already no mystery to me.

SOCON = social conservative
NEOCON = "new" conservatives.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2018, 10:38:36 pm »
Thanks for the details/info...but the definitions/examples you set forth were already no mystery to me.

SOCON = social conservative
NEOCON = "new" conservatives.

Except that SOCONs are a legitimate Conservative faction, preserving the principles of the Judeo-Christian ethic, and welcomed to the Conservative table by RWR...
SOCON
FICON
DEFCON

and I would add, CIVCON = In Reagan era Conservatism, civil libertarians were lumped in with FICON.. I would consider that to be inaccurate. The two conserve different principles respectively.

NEOCONs preserve nothing.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2018, 10:49:22 pm »
Except that SOCONs are a legitimate Conservative faction, preserving the principles of the Judeo-Christian ethic, and welcomed to the Conservative table by RWR...
SOCON
FICON
DEFCON

and I would add, CIVCON = In Reagan era Conservatism, civil libertarians were lumped in with FICON.. I would consider that to be inaccurate. The two conserve different principles respectively.

NEOCONs preserve nothing.

I'm good with the first three (or four) and want nothing to do with the last so I guess I'm just plain conservative.
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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2018, 10:55:47 pm »
I'm good with the first three (or four) and want nothing to do with the last so I guess I'm just plain conservative.

That's right.  :beer:

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2018, 11:03:41 pm »
Neo-con is an accurate and necessary description. Neo-con was coined by moderates for moderates in an attempt to distinguish themselves as different from Conservatism, while trying to hi-jack the popular branding of Conservatism.

Neoconservatism is always 'kinder, gentler conservatism' (one of their slogans), but inevitably divides the factions of Reagan Conservatism - Preferring the Christian Right for their votes, and the Military for their uses in nation building, but eschewing fiscal conservatism, and especially the Goldwater Libertarianism that all true Conservatism is founded upon.

To wit:
Neoconservatism comes from the moderate wing of the Republican party (the Bushes, McCain, etc), and is not conservative, but pays lip service to Conservative causes.

Conservatism comes from the Goldwater wing, and holds to libertarianism, principles, and merit.

You can tell the difference most distinctly, because Conservatives tend to get along with the principles of Libertarianism, and demand fiscal responsibility, and Neo-cons do not.

To banish the term would be a mistake.

I would not want to start banishing terms, either.  Especially one that represents a clear mode of thought.  Where things run into trouble of the type that gets Mods stepping in, is when a term like Neoconservative gets linked with some Jewish conspiracy that is detrimental to the USA.  Pat Buchanan does that all the time.
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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2018, 11:18:55 pm »
I would not want to start banishing terms, either.  Especially one that represents a clear mode of thought.  Where things run into trouble of the type that gets Mods stepping in, is when a term like Neoconservative gets linked with some Jewish conspiracy that is detrimental to the USA.  Pat Buchanan does that all the time.

All of these terms have become muddled, and what is needed is direct and informed return to their definitions.

SOCON and NEOCON are often conflated too - I understand why, considering that the NEOCONS needed Christian votes and swept the FICONS and CIVCONS under the bus, causing a whole lot of butthurt.

But the two are not synonymous - NEOCONS play ever toward liberal (read 'moderate') Christianity, and while lip-syncing conservative Christianity, much to the detriment of Christian Conservatives.

I ain't saying that other Conservative factions don't have a bone to pick, but all the butthurt has to stop. The TEA PARTY would not have succeeded without the Christian Right, and neither will any other Conservative venture. SOCONS have more votes than the rest put together.


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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2018, 11:50:27 pm »
All of these terms have become muddled, and what is needed is direct and informed return to their definitions.

SOCON and NEOCON are often conflated too - I understand why, considering that the NEOCONS needed Christian votes and swept the FICONS and CIVCONS under the bus, causing a whole lot of butthurt.

But the two are not synonymous - NEOCONS play ever toward liberal (read 'moderate') Christianity, and while lip-syncing conservative Christianity, much to the detriment of Christian Conservatives.

I ain't saying that other Conservative factions don't have a bone to pick, but all the butthurt has to stop. The TEA PARTY would not have succeeded without the Christian Right, and neither will any other Conservative venture. SOCONS have more votes than the rest put together.

Neocons have a reputation for being too happy to get involved with external armed conflicts.  That's my rap on them.  Leave Turkey to the Turks, like the old song.  I don't give a rip if they want to call it Istanbul not Constantinople.  Not my Circus, not my monkeys.
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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2018, 12:08:26 am »
If I remember right, the first of those thinkers to be called (or to call themselves) neoconservatives in the 1970s were Nathan Glazer, Irving Kristol, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Seymour Martin Lipset, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Norman Podhoretz (who steered Commentary away from the left during that decade), and Ben Wattenberg. (His book, The Real Majority, is thought by some to have been the earliest neoconservative argument in full book form.)...

I'll defer to your far and away more complete understanding of the issue. I really didn't start paying close attention until the Reagan era. Anyway it seems to confirm my view.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2018, 12:25:46 pm »
Jonah Goldberg
National Review
August 9, 2018

More

@Machiavelli

Thanks for posting this.  My husband and I have always liked "They Live" as sort of a campy fun piece. 

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2018, 12:28:15 pm »
---------------------------------
Goldberg is no more a principled conservative than Herbert Hoover
or George Bush was.
Suggest you lose the sentimental malarkey about these neo-cons
and get real about these frauds and hustlers.

@Absalom

Congratulations on one of the absolute dumbest posts I've seen since I've been here.

I suggest you read Jonah's "Suicide of the West".  You might learn a few things.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2018, 02:53:49 pm »
@Absalom

I agree with @Sanguine. Your posts on this thread are dangerously close to being anti-Semitic. Please drop the neocon stuff immediately.

@Machiavelli

Is it still permissible to criticize neo-cons who AREN'T Jewish,comrade?
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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2018, 02:58:06 pm »
@Machiavelli

Is it still permissible to criticize neo-cons who AREN'T Jewish,comrade?

Sneakypete, please stay on topic.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2018, 03:02:08 pm »
Always thought 'neocon' meant, sort of like "new money'... up and coming generations...never Jewish.

WTF do I know?    (that's rhetorical)   :laugh:

@DCPatriot

I always thought it was a term for stealth Dims like Kristol and actual Dims that switched parties in order to get elected after Reagan was elected. Had/has nothing to do with their religion or where their ancestors came from.

I still see it this way,and I see the "anti-Semitism" shrieks as one more example of a group of people,in this case Jews,trying to establish the status of being beyond criticism,much like the blacks of today.

If it looks like a duck,sounds like a duck,and speaks like a duck,it's a freaking duck!

When did the 1st Amendment become obsolete,anyway?
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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2018, 03:05:02 pm »
Quote
I always considered 'neoconservative' as referring to those classic democrats who, seeing the political handwriting on the wall, joined the 'conservative movement' in the wake of Reagan's obvious success.
 
 
The fact that many who met this description were of jewish heritage was incidental.

 888high58888

@skeeter
Quote
I realize others have used the term as an antisemetic dog whistle, though, so I avoid use of the term.

You will NEVER win any argument where you allow your opponent to define the terms.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 03:05:35 pm by sneakypete »
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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2018, 03:07:48 pm »
I just call them fake republicans and move on.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2018, 03:09:03 pm »
@DCPatriot

I always thought it was a term for stealth Dims like Kristol and actual Dims that switched parties in order to get elected after Reagan was elected. Had/has nothing to do with their religion or where their ancestors came from.

I still see it this way,and I see the "anti-Semitism" shrieks as one more example of a group of people,in this case Jews,trying to establish the status of being beyond criticism,much like the blacks of today.

If it looks like a duck,sounds like a duck,and speaks like a duck,it's a freaking duck!

When did the 1st Amendment become obsolete,anyway?

Just curious - what does you opinion on neocons have to do with the topic of this thread?

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2018, 03:10:23 pm »
Neo-con is an accurate and necessary description. Neo-con was coined by moderates for moderates in an attempt to distinguish themselves as different from Conservatism, while trying to hi-jack the popular branding of Conservatism.

Neoconservatism is always 'kinder, gentler conservatism' (one of their slogans), but inevitably divides the factions of Reagan Conservatism - Preferring the Christian Right for their votes, and the Military for their uses in nation building, but eschewing fiscal conservatism, and especially the Goldwater Libertarianism that all true Conservatism is founded upon.

To wit:
Neoconservatism comes from the moderate wing of the Republican party (the Bushes, McCain, etc), and is not conservative, but pays lip service to Conservative causes.

Conservatism comes from the Goldwater wing, and holds to libertarianism, principles, and merit.

You can tell the difference most distinctly, because Conservatives tend to get along with the principles of Libertarianism, and demand fiscal responsibility, and Neo-cons do not.

To banish the term would be a mistake.

@roamer_1

Thank you! I tried to explain it several times,but you did a better job than me with just this one post.
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Offline Machiavelli

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2018, 03:21:24 pm »
@Machiavelli

Is it still permissible to criticize neo-cons who AREN'T Jewish,comrade?

@sneakypete

You may criticize neocons of all stripes, but show discretion when you post.

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Re: Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2018, 03:35:11 pm »
Sneakypete, please stay on topic.

@Mod5

Are you saying I can ONLY comment about Jews on this thread,and MUST ignore the non-Jewish neocons?

Please explain this so a simple creature like me can understand it.

Thanks in advance.
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