Author Topic: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?  (Read 19466 times)

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2018, 02:04:34 pm »
You've got to be kidding. 

It ain't liberals who want to force woman to reproduce. 

Persuade others of your superior morality.  Don't demand the government impose your morality on others.

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2018, 02:13:36 pm »
Why even speculate on this?  We don't know who is going to be chosen, whether or not they will be confirmed, and what cases may come up to the SCOTUS in the future.  Way too early to be arguing this one.

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2018, 02:21:23 pm »
This isn't about my "beliefs".   It is about your beliefs - and your apparent desire to impose them by force of government on others. 

A woman has the right to choose whether to reproduce.  That choice isn't unlimited, and can (like the gun right) be made subject to reasonable regulation.  But her right of self-determination is guaranteed by the Constitution, just as is your right of self-defense.

And pounding on the table by pontificating your religious beliefs are not going to make them Constitutional. Science has more than proven that the baby is a separate life, and therefore subject to the rights of personhood under the Constitution.

You can scream and hand wave all you want to try and merge mother and child in order to give the mother's 'rights' supremacy over the baby's, but your belief is fairy tale, not science, and certainly not constitutional.
The Republic is lost.

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2018, 02:24:19 pm »
Very good, grasshopper.  Are you going to pay out of your own pocket to support all the preemies?

No, I didn’t think you would.  You’d prefer to use the threat of state-sanctioned violence to make others fulfill your virtues.

Versus neutering the state so I can act on the threat of my personal-sanctioned violence to impose my virtues?
The Republic is lost.

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2018, 02:31:30 pm »
A Constitutional right is a Constitutional right.   It doesn't matter if the right exists by reason of the plain text of the document, or the Supreme Court's interpretation of it.  That's simply a fact, and the law.


I don't dispute that the court's interpretation is treated as equally authoritative as the Constitution itself.  I argue that the equation is illogical and destructive to ordered liberty. 

What Harry Blackmun (or any other Justice) said about the Constitution is *not* the Constitution, and this is easily demonstrated :  a later court can overturn an earlier one - indeed that possibility is the topic of this thread - but no court can overturn even a single punctuation mark in the Constitution. 

Basing the law on an ontological contradiction is a root cause of the conflict that exists in the country today and has contributed significantly to the widespread contempt many hold for the legal profession, including the Supreme Court.
 
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What fascinates me is the attitude of both liberals and conservatives towards Constitutional rights.  It's fundamentally hypocritical.   Conservatives worship the gun right and despise the abortion right.  Liberals view the abortion right as sacrosanct, and deem the gun right illegitimate.   Conservatives fight the abortion right by seeking to regulate and restrict it right up the Constitutional line,  but threaten to shoot peace officers if the state suggests they register their guns.   Liberals adopt a similar hostile attitude regarding the gun right, and claim the sky is falling if the state so much as requires a mother-to-be to look at a pamphlet.

The "abortion right" is a manifestation of the ontological contradiction in law, justified by the same self-serving definitions of "human" used by earlier generations to argue that some exist merely for the convenience of others and therefore enjoy no legal protections.  The day will come when abortion is compared to abolition, and Roe v. Wade will be its Dred Scott.

There is nothing hypocritical in distinguishing the Second Amendment from Roe v. Wade or distinguishing ownership of a gun from ending a human life.  What is fundamentally hypocritical is the assertion that women can freely choose to participate in intercourse and then retroactively shield themselves from the consequences of that choice by taking a human life, but men have no such retroactive choice to shield themselves from the consequences by refusing child support.  That we do not generally make the latter argument reveals the contradiction in our thought.
 
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Constitutional rights are Constitutional rights.  They exist to protect the rights of individuals vis a vis the state.   Those of you who demand the right to keep your guns secretly hidden from prying government eyes ought to have sympathy with the notion that the State cannot demand a woman reproduce against her will.

Owning a gun, whether in secret or in the open, does not end a human life, and is explicitly recognized in the Constitution.  It is trivially easy to distinguish, both constitutionally and practically, that gun ownership is in no way analogous to abortion.

The state makes no demand on any woman that she reproduce against her will , regardless of the legal status of abortion.  Women are completely free to choose not to reproduce, in the same manner that men are completely free to choose not to reproduce.

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But of course, you don't.  Your rights are crucial. A woman's?  Not so much.  You say an abortion ends a human life.  That is a moral perspective you are certainly entitled to.  But it not the right of the State to impose it on others.

It is precisely the role of the state to impose moral beliefs on all members of a society.  Those imposed moral beliefs are called "laws", and as a society we do expect everyone to abide by them, whether as individuals they agree with them or not.

If you really believe the state cannot impose this moral belief, then under what circumstances can it impose any moral belief?  Why are murder, or theft, or rape, or slavery illegal?  All are imposed moral beliefs, why not make a "pro-choice" argument on any of these?  For that matter, why not make a "pro-choice" argument for a baker to make, or not make, a wedding cake?
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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2018, 02:36:06 pm »
@HoustonSam

I do wish you would spend more time posting here!  Great stuff!
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2018, 02:44:21 pm »
@HoustonSam

I do wish you would spend more time posting here!  Great stuff!

Thank you @Bigun.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2018, 02:52:33 pm »
@HoustonSam

I do wish you would spend more time posting here!  Great stuff!

I echo that, @HoustonSam  Your posts are always top notch.   I will respond to your excellent comments later when I have time.   
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2018, 02:53:59 pm »
I echo that, @HoustonSam  Your posts are always top notch.   I will respond to your excellent comments later when I have time.   

Thank you @Jazzhead for your gracious acknowledgement.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2018, 02:40:31 pm »


I don't dispute that the court's interpretation is treated as equally authoritative as the Constitution itself.  I argue that the equation is illogical and destructive to ordered liberty. 

What Harry Blackmun (or any other Justice) said about the Constitution is *not* the Constitution, and this is easily demonstrated :  a later court can overturn an earlier one - indeed that possibility is the topic of this thread - but no court can overturn even a single punctuation mark in the Constitution. 


Yes,  a later court can overturn an earlier one,  but the point is that conservative judging nevertheless respects precedent,  especially when the issue isn't extending rights, but taking them away.    The abortion right has been guaranteed by the Constitution for over 40 years.  To a woman,  I'm sure you'll agree that the right is quite fundamental.  Despite their best efforts and intentions,  women DO have unplanned pregnancies,  and face existential crises as a result.   Yes,  I recognize the irony of using that word in a conversation about abortion,  but it cannot be denied that the term "crisis pregnancy center" is no misnomer.   Women need support, including financial and emotional support, to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.   They have for 40 years now at least had the freedom of knowing the State was not going to take their options away.   

As for "no court can overturn a single punctuation mark in the Constitution",  there are plenty of reasonable folks,  folks I disagree with, who claim the Heller decision read the entire predicate clause out of the Second Amendment!   

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Basing the law on an ontological contradiction is a root cause of the conflict that exists in the country today and has contributed significantly to the widespread contempt many hold for the legal profession, including the Supreme Court.

I'd say that contempt is misplaced,  but I know you won't believe me.  I'll just say there are lots of decent  men and women who consider their work as lawyers as contributing to the betterment of things.     

But you are correct that the original Roe decision was a thundershock in that it wiped away the laws in most of the states,  and substituted the will of the Court for the will of the people.   That is, in and of itself,  disturbing,  and I have always been of the view that Roe would never be legitimized until it was codified in the form of a Constitutional amendment.   That will, of course, never happen,  so it has become the ultimate political football.  No issue divides us more as a people,  and no issue is more directly the root cause of our current distress that some suggest is a budding civil war. 
 
Quote
The "abortion right" is a manifestation of the ontological contradiction in law, justified by the same self-serving definitions of "human" used by earlier generations to argue that some exist merely for the convenience of others and therefore enjoy no legal protections.  The day will come when abortion is compared to abolition, and Roe v. Wade will be its Dred Scott.

I don't think so.  But the day WILL come when women are able to avoid or address unwanted pregnancies without the need for abortion.  The liberty principle underlying the abortion right - the natural right to self-determination, extended to the female of the species - is not going away.   

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There is nothing hypocritical in distinguishing the Second Amendment from Roe v. Wade or distinguishing ownership of a gun from ending a human life.  What is fundamentally hypocritical is the assertion that women can freely choose to participate in intercourse and then retroactively shield themselves from the consequences of that choice by taking a human life, but men have no such retroactive choice to shield themselves from the consequences by refusing child support.  That we do not generally make the latter argument reveals the contradiction in our thought.

 Again, the natural right that is protected is the right of self-determination.   It takes two to tango, but the burden of pregnancy and childbirth is the woman's alone.  And far too often, the burden of raising a child falls, too, on the woman alone.   Is it hypocritical to afford few rights to the father?  What right of self-determination does the father possess?    And if he does,  can it not be dismissed as cavalierly as some do with respect to women, by saying the guy should have just kept his pants zipped? 
 
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Owning a gun, whether in secret or in the open, does not end a human life, and is explicitly recognized in the Constitution.  It is trivially easy to distinguish, both constitutionally and practically, that gun ownership is in no way analogous to abortion.

Not so fast - each is  a tool to effectuate what is perceived as an important natural right.  And where they certainly are the same is that, for each,  one political side thinks that one Constitutional right is sacrosanct, and the other is illegitimate.   And each political side refuses to compromise in its view that the state has no business interfering with the exercise of the right it favors,  and to strip away the right it disfavors.   

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The state makes no demand on any woman that she reproduce against her will , regardless of the legal status of abortion.  Women are completely free to choose not to reproduce, in the same manner that men are completely free to choose not to reproduce.

It is precisely the role of the state to impose moral beliefs on all members of a society.  Those imposed moral beliefs are called "laws", and as a society we do expect everyone to abide by them, whether as individuals they agree with them or not.

If you really believe the state cannot impose this moral belief, then under what circumstances can it impose any moral belief?  Why are murder, or theft, or rape, or slavery illegal?  All are imposed moral beliefs, why not make a "pro-choice" argument on any of these?  For that matter, why not make a "pro-choice" argument for a baker to make, or not make, a wedding cake?

We do not disagree regarding the moral belief.  We disagree regarding the authority of the state to compel a woman to reproduce, in order to protect a fetus that cannot yet survive on its own.   There is no answer I can give that will satisfy you that the fetus is undeserving of protection, especially if you ascribe to the fetus a soul.


But we have chosen to create a secular Republic,  with a Constitution predicated on protecting the individual rights of the living.   It is harsh to say so, but the Constitution does not protect non-viable fetuses,   except as derivative of the rights of the mother.  So an armed robbery gone awry can result in two victims,  when a mother and fetus are killed.   The mother's rights included her expectation that her growing child would have the state's protection.   But vis a vis the mother herself,  the situation of Solomon emerges.  A choice must be made - is the woman's right of self-determination more important than the fetus' right to life?   


I don't think the State can make that choice.   I think the woman, and her support system of partner, family and community should she engage it,  must make that choice.   And so my regular mantra is - persuasion, not coercion.   
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 03:27:19 pm by Jazzhead »
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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2018, 03:07:45 pm »

Yes,  a later court can overturn an earlier one,  but the point is that conservative judging nevertheless respects precedent,  especially when the issue isn't extending rights, but taking them away.    The abortion right has been guaranteed by the Constitution for over 40 years.  To a woman,  I'm sure you'll agree that the right is quite fundamental.  Despite their best efforts and intentions,  women DO have unplanned pregnancies,  and face existential crises as a result.   Yes,  I recognize the irony of using that word in a conversation about abortion,  but it cannot be denied that the term "crisis pregnancy center" is no misnomer.   Women need support, including financial and emotional support, to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.   They have for 40 years now at least had the freedom of knowing the State was not going to take their options away.   

As for "no one can overturn a single punctuation mark in the Constitution",  there are plenty of reasonable folks,  folks I disagree with, who claim the Heller decision read the entire predicate clause out of the Second Amendment!   

I'd say that contempt is misplaced,  but I know you won't believe me.  I'll just say there are lots of decent  men and women who consider their work as lawyers as contributing to the betterment of things.     

But you are correct that the original Roe decision was a thundershock in that it wiped away the laws in most of the states,  and substituted the will of the Court for the will of the people.   That is, in and of itself,  disturbing,  and I have always been of the view that Roe would never be legitimized until it was codified in the form of a Constitutional amendment.   That will, of course, never happen,  so it has become the ultimate political football.  No issue divides us more as a people,  and no issue is more directly the root cause of our current distress that some suggest is a budding civil war. 
 
I don't think so,  The day will come when women are able to avoid or address unwanted pregnancies without the need for abortion.  The liberty principle underlying the abortion right - the natural right to self-determination, extended to the female of the species - is not going away.   

 Again, the natural right that is protected is the right of self-determination.   It takes two to tango, but the burden of pregnancy and childbirth is the woman's alone.  And far too often, the burden of raising a child falls, too, on the woman alone.   Is it hypocritical to afford few rights to the father?  What right of self-determination does the father possess?    And if he has,  can it not be dismissed as cavalierly as some do with respect to women, by saying the guy should have just kept his pants zipped? 
 
We do not disagree regarding the moral belief.  We disagree regarding the authority of the state to compel a woman to reproduce, in protection of a non-viable fetus.   There is no answer I can give that will satisfy you that the fetus is undeserving of protection, especially if you ascribe to the fetus a soul.


But we have chosen to create a secular Republic,  with a Constitution predicated on protecting the individual rights of the living.   It is harsh to say so, but the Constitution does not protect non-viable fetuses,   except as derivative of the rights of the mother.  So an armed robbery gone awry can result in two victims,  when a mother and fetus are killed.   The mother's rights included her expectation that her growing child would have the state's protection.   But vis a vis the mother herself,  the situation of Solomon emerges.  A choice must be made - is the woman's right of self-determination more important than the fetus' right to life?   


I don't think the State can make that choice.   I think the woman, and her support system of partner, family and community should she engage it,  must make that choice.   So my regular mantra - persuasion, not coercion.   


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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2018, 03:24:01 pm »
A fetus is simply an unborn baby.  If a baby has a soul, then, yes, a fetus has a soul.  I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise except perhaps to argue that none of us have souls.  That's a whole different direction with a whole new set of problems.

And, yes, a fetus/baby/toddler, whatever is a unique little human being, otherwise known as a person.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 03:25:36 pm by Sanguine »

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2018, 03:35:38 pm »
A fetus is simply an unborn baby.  If a baby has a soul, then, yes, a fetus has a soul.  I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise except perhaps to argue that none of us have souls.  That's a whole different direction with a whole new set of problems.

And, yes, a fetus/baby/toddler, whatever is a unique little human being, otherwise known as a person.

Thanks for reading my response,  @Sanguine .   I understand and appreciate the moral issue.   The legal and Constitutional issue is the right of the State to have a coercive, rather than a merely persuasive, role with respect to a matter of individual conscience.   
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2018, 03:56:55 pm »
Thanks for reading my response,  @Sanguine .   I understand and appreciate the moral issue.   The legal and Constitutional issue is the right of the State to have a coercive, rather than a merely persuasive, role with respect to a matter of individual conscience.

I understand the argument about persuasion vs. coercion, but if we acknowledge that fetuses have souls, where do we go from there?

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2018, 04:04:11 pm »
I don't think "persuasion" is effective in stopping murder.  There's a reason it's technically against the law.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2018, 04:07:12 pm »
I understand the argument about persuasion vs. coercion, but if we acknowledge that fetuses have souls, where do we go from there?

Do the right thing, and do your best to persuade others to do likewise.   One soul at a time.  Just like the Bible says.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2018, 04:09:39 pm »
I don't think "persuasion" is effective in stopping murder.

It will have to be.  This isn't "murder" by a stranger.   This is a woman, and what is growing in her body.   It is inherently personal.  The state can play no coercive role.   
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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2018, 04:13:33 pm »
It will have to be.  This isn't "murder" by a stranger.   This is a woman, and what is growing in her body.   It is inherently personal.  The state can play no coercive role.

So, murder is OK if it's done by one's mother?  Surely that's not what you are saying.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2018, 04:17:34 pm »
So, murder is OK if it's done by one's mother?  Surely that's not what you are saying.

I didn't say it was OK.   But it is an inherently a personal decision - and the woman's understanding of her faith and the human soul may well be the determinant.   Not the State's.   
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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2018, 04:24:27 pm »
So, murder is OK if it's done by one's mother?  Surely that's not what you are saying.

It’s not murder. 

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2018, 04:34:29 pm »
A woman has the right to choose whether to reproduce. 

Yep... Right up until her knees come apart.

The risk to a man for a moment of ecstasy does not go away because he rejects his spawn. It will cost him from his treasure, by force of law, for twenty years. That is the cost for taking down his zipper.

Where is the consequence for women? If she need not bear the consequence, then neither should the man be so required.

No. The natural point of risk is in the choice to engage in intercourse. Before that point there need be no commitment for either party, and after the fact, there should be commitment for both.

That is why marriage is important. It safeguards that natural act with a natural commitment - BEFORE the fact.

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2018, 04:38:33 pm »
Yep... Right up until her knees come apart.

The risk to a man for a moment of ecstasy does not go away because he rejects his spawn. It will cost him from his treasure, by force of law, for twenty years. That is the cost for taking down his zipper.

Where is the consequence for women? If she need not bear the consequence, then neither should the man be so required.

No. The natural point of risk is in the choice to engage in intercourse. Before that point there need be no commitment for either party, and after the fact, there should be commitment for both.

That is why marriage is important. It safeguards that natural act with a natural commitment - BEFORE the fact.


She has the right to choose right up to the moment of birth.

Until and unless the State can take over the gestation of the fetus, and stands ready to do so, it has no business forcing a woman to continue with a pregnancy she does not want. 

She has as much right to remove a trespasser from her body, by force if necessary, as you do to remove a trespasser from your house, by force if necessary.

And your view of marriage is surreal. Ever heard of marital rape?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 04:44:28 pm by Oceander »

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2018, 04:39:07 pm »


That is why marriage is important. It safeguards that natural act with a natural commitment - BEFORE the fact.

But note that marriage is not compelled by the State.   You know, that pesky right of self-determination and all.   
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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2018, 04:40:16 pm »
Yep... Right up until her knees come apart.

The risk to a man for a moment of ecstasy does not go away because he rejects his spawn. It will cost him from his treasure, by force of law, for twenty years. That is the cost for taking down his zipper.

Where is the consequence for women? If she need not bear the consequence, then neither should the man be so required.

No. The natural point of risk is in the choice to engage in intercourse. Before that point there need be no commitment for either party, and after the fact, there should be commitment for both.

That is why marriage is important. It safeguards that natural act with a natural commitment - BEFORE the fact.

The entire purpose of abortion is to keep women available for easy sex. 
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Re: Will Anthony Kennedy’s replacement really end Roe v. Wade?
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2018, 04:41:41 pm »
The entire purpose of abortion is to keep women available for easy sex.

Now there's the sexist observation of the year!
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