Author Topic: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities  (Read 2928 times)

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Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2018, 09:13:05 AM »
How fortunate we are to live in areas communities that think as we do, and do not have such laws.

We don't risk any sanctions from laws that don't exist.  And we will work to see that they don't exist.

Your hypothetical situation claiming moral authority remains hypothetical.

The notion that a "community" outweighs the "individual" is repulsive to me.  There's an Ayn Rand quote about the smallest minority.

I don't think "licensure" is something the grabbers are going to allow to be decided at the local level.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:14:24 AM by Cyber Liberty »
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2018, 09:13:45 AM »
I give no credit to slippery slope arguments.   A law requiring the licensure of gun owners and/or the registration of firearms is compatible with the Second Amendment,  and the potential abuse of such a law is addressed by the Constitution's protections.   I will stand right with you if your Constitutional rights are infringed.   Confiscation of property is the act of a tyrant, and must be opposed.   But licensure and registration for the purposes of efficient and effective law enforcement,  to lift more gun transactions out of the shadows and off of the back of trucks,  is both Constitutional and, it sure as heck seems to me, simple common sense.   

What you do not have is the Constitutional right to be a law unto yourself.  If the community decides that as a gun owner you must be licensed, just as you are with respect to the cars you drive,  then yes, you are no longer law-abiding if you refuse to comply.   Because such a law is lawfully enacted and consistent with the Constitution, and you are a member of the community.

 It is up to you whether to risk the law's sanction.  Will you come out with guns blazing?  If you do, you may or may not lose your life.  But you will surely have lost your moral authority, in the eyes of man and of God.   

Sorry Pope Jazzhead, this is nothing but empty moralizing and pontificating, and convoluted logic.

Licensing and registration will not affect 'to lift more gun transactions out of the shadows and off of the back of trucks' because those aren't sold legally to begin with. If they are breaking the law now, they won't obey the new one.

By your logic if 'the community' (which is not how our govt works) decides that the rural areas must be cleared of all people for the sake of the environment and moved to the cities or camps en masse, then they must comply or they have ' lost your moral authority, in the eyes of man and of God'.

You keep saying the Constitution will protect us, yet seem to give The Community boundless authority to pass anything they please that citizens must obey.
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2018, 09:18:02 AM »
You keep saying the Constitution will protect us, yet seem to give The Community boundless authority to pass anything they please that citizens must obey.

It's the fatal conceit in the argument.  Gun grabbers are 100% sure the "constitution" will protect "them," because they are confident they will get to be the ones interpreting it.  The rest of us are just too stupid, and need guidance from the annointed.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2018, 09:23:52 AM »
I give no credit to slippery slope arguments.   

@Jazzhead
Of course not, liberals have used this approach for decades with great success, why on earth would you want to change it.
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Online thackney

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2018, 09:25:00 AM »
Sorry Pope Jazzhead, this is nothing but empty moralizing and pontificating, and convoluted logic.

Licensing and registration will not affect 'to lift more gun transactions out of the shadows and off of the back of trucks' because those aren't sold legally to begin with. If they are breaking the law now, they won't obey the new one.

By your logic if 'the community' (which is not how our govt works) decides that the rural areas must be cleared of all people for the sake of the environment and moved to the cities or camps en masse, then they must comply or they have ' lost your moral authority, in the eyes of man and of God'.

You keep saying the Constitution will protect us, yet seem to give The Community boundless authority to pass anything they please that citizens must obey.

Private gun sales not involving dealers or government approval are legal today and should always remain so.

I have bought a gun from a co-worker.  We met at his truck as we saw no reason to bring the gun into the office.  Don't legitimize his attempt to demonize private sales.  They are legal, just like cars.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:27:47 AM by thackney »
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2018, 09:25:06 AM »
It's the fatal conceit in the argument.  Gun grabbers are 100% sure the "constitution" will protect "them," because they are confident they will get to be the ones interpreting it.  The rest of us are just too stupid, and need guidance from the annointed.

Its like saying "its the law" when they want it, but ignoring the law when they are trying to bring in illegals or something else on their agenda.
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Offline Restored

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2018, 09:25:13 AM »
Registration doesn't keep guns out of people's hands so it is a useless gesture if you feel there are too many guns. Registering cars did not keep cars out of people's hands nor did registering bicycles or pets. So what is the point of doing it from a gun control aspect?
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2018, 09:31:26 AM »
So what you're saying is the Constitution's just a worthless scrap of paper?   I disagree.  It is the foundation by which our individual rights are protected against the abuse of law by the community.   I trust the checks, balances and protections against tyranny the Founders put in place; you prefer to be a self-appointed lone ranger.     

But whether you like it or not,  the community - by which I mean your town, state or nation of which you are a part - still has the ability to pass laws -  by means of its elected representatives - to address such problems as gun violence and gun trafficking.   No, such laws cannot infringe the RKBA,  but neither do you have the right to be a law unto yourself.

Like I said,  if you refuse to comply, you risk the law's sanction.   That's your choice, but don't give me this crap about moral virtue.  You will just be another criminal,  taking the law into your own hands.     
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2018, 09:31:52 AM »
Registration doesn't keep guns out of people's hands so it is a useless gesture if you feel there are too many guns. Registering cars did not keep cars out of people's hands nor did registering bicycles or pets. So what is the point of doing it from a gun control aspect?

The grabbers want a record of who has them, and they are trying (and failing) to convince us it's not so they'll know where they are when it comes to confiscating them, a process already started in California and Hawaii, and other select "communities."
I will NOT comply.
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2018, 09:47:06 AM »
So what you're saying is the Constitution's just a worthless scrap of paper?   I disagree.  It is the foundation by which our individual rights are protected against the abuse of law by the community.   I trust the checks, balances and protections against tyranny the Founders put in place; you prefer to be a self-appointed lone ranger.     

But whether you like it or not,  the community - by which I mean your town, state or nation of which you are a part - still has the ability to pass laws -  by means of its elected representatives - to address such problems as gun violence and gun trafficking.   No, such laws cannot infringe the RKBA,  but neither do you have the right to be a law unto yourself.

Like I said,  if you refuse to comply, you risk the law's sanction.   That's your choice, but don't give me this crap about moral virtue.  You will just be another criminal,  taking the law into your own hands.     

As I said, you believe the Constitution will protect us, but seem to give The Community boundless powers to pass any laws they please. You have two concepts in direct opposition to each other.

Of course you rely on the 'interpretation' patsy, but if you have a document that can be 'interpreted' by those with the power then you really have no protection at all, just a flimsy pretense.
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2018, 10:18:00 AM »
As I said, you believe the Constitution will protect us, but seem to give The Community boundless powers to pass any laws they please. You have two concepts in direct opposition to each other.

Of course you rely on the 'interpretation' patsy, but if you have a document that can be 'interpreted' by those with the power then you really have no protection at all, just a flimsy pretense.

It's all about who gets to interpret it.  Activist lawyers arrogate all that power to themselves because they know they are so much smarter than the rest of us.  It's why we're called "laymen."  Of course our friend is happy to rely on the constitution to protect him:  His like-minded friends believe they control the meaning of it with clever wordplay.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:20:03 AM by Cyber Liberty »
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2018, 10:22:19 AM »
It's all about who gets to interpret it.  Activist lawyers arrogate all that power to themselves because they know they are so much smarter than the rest of us.  It's why we're called "laymen."  Of course our friend is happy to rely on the constitution to protect him:  His like-minded friends believe they control the meaning of it with clever wordplay.

 :thumbsup:
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2018, 10:30:52 AM »
It's all about who gets to interpret it.  Activist lawyers arrogate all that power to themselves because they know they are so much smarter than the rest of us.  It's why we're called "laymen."  Of course our friend is happy to rely on the constitution to protect him:  His like-minded friends believe they control the meaning of it with clever wordplay.

Kinda like "I don't care who votes I care who counts the votes!"

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2018, 10:42:41 AM »
"I believe no Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner but I believe the community should determine whether the owner's consent is necessary. "

Hahahahaha....No seriously. Who is the President?

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2018, 10:48:58 AM »
Registration doesn't keep guns out of people's hands so it is a useless gesture if you feel there are too many guns. Registering cars did not keep cars out of people's hands nor did registering bicycles or pets. So what is the point of doing it from a gun control aspect?

@Restored
For the control of course.  To further train the subjects that all power comes from the govt, and its only with govt approval that you can defend yourself.  and since that will be taken next so the govt has sole discretion on the use of force.
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2018, 11:00:04 AM »
The notion that a "community" outweighs the "individual" is repulsive to me.  There's an Ayn Rand quote about the smallest minority.

I don't think "licensure" is something the grabbers are going to allow to be decided at the local level.

Quite correct.  Just as.... the Democrats pushed through ObamaCare .... against the will of most Americans....

they will (no doubt about it), some day, attempt to push through their gun-grabbing moist-dream legislation.

It's how the radical left rolls, after all.   Well, that is... as long as they are up against a well-armed populace.  If not, they just swarm in and execute anyone not in complete submission, compliance or agreement.
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2018, 11:07:59 AM »
Kinda like "I don't care who votes I care who counts the votes!"

It's not "kinda like."  It's "perzackly like." :beer:
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2018, 11:15:56 AM »
Registration doesn't keep guns out of people's hands so it is a useless gesture if you feel there are too many guns.

That's not the point.   The purpose of registration is not to limit the number of guns you can own or provide information for unconstitutional confiscation.  Its purpose is very simple - to identify a gun with the owner who is legally responsible for it.  Guns are useful but dangerous implements - what is unreasonable about expecting the gun's owner to be responsible for its use, and its lawful transfer or disposition?  In that sense, the purpose for registration of firearms is very similar to the purpose for registration of cars (although the liability regimes will, of course, differ).     
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:16:52 AM by Jazzhead »
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2018, 11:22:41 AM »
Its purpose is very simple - to identify a gun with the owner who is legally responsible for it.

And how does that prevent crime?
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2018, 11:23:06 AM »
That's not the point.   The purpose of registration is not to limit the number of guns you can own or provide information for unconstitutional confiscation.  Its purpose is very simple - to identify a gun with the owner who is legally responsible for it.  Guns are useful but dangerous implements - what is unreasonable about expecting the gun's owner to be responsible for its use, and its lawful transfer or disposition?  In that sense, the purpose for registration of firearms is very similar to the purpose for registration of cars (although the liability regimes will, of course, differ).     

But the gun problem in this country is due to people who don't obey laws in the first place, not to the people you describe in your post. You seem to have this tinfoil conspiracy that somehow registration is going to out some nefarious activity on otherwise lawful gun purchases by otherwise law abiding citizens.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2018, 11:23:22 AM »
That's not the point.   The purpose of registration is not to limit the number of guns you can own or provide information for unconstitutional confiscation.  Its purpose is very simple - to identify a gun with the owner who is legally responsible for it.  Guns are useful but dangerous implements - what is unreasonable about expecting the gun's owner to be responsible for its use, and its lawful transfer or disposition?  In that sense, the purpose for registration of firearms is very similar to the purpose for registration of cars (although the liability regimes will, of course, differ).     

@Jazzhead
The purpose of registration is control of law abiding citizens.   It does nothing to hinder the criminals who commit the crimes.

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Online thackney

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2018, 11:25:56 AM »
But the gun problem in this country is due to people who don't obey laws in the first place, not to the people you describe in your post. You seem to have this tinfoil conspiracy that somehow registration is going to out some nefarious activity on otherwise lawful gun purchases by otherwise law abiding citizens.

It appears the purpose is to make many current lawful gun purchase illegal, making law abiding citizens into criminals.

At that point, you have laws to take their guns away.
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2018, 11:30:35 AM »
It appears the purpose is to make many current lawful gun purchase illegal, making law abiding citizens into criminals.

At that point, you have laws to take their guns away.

You're 'smellin' what I'm steppin' in' as the say. That's what it's really about - criminalizing private transfers and the 'gun show loophole,' neither of which seem to contribute to the gun crime problem, but rather are on the Lefty laundry list of things they don't like because they can't control.
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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2018, 12:21:45 PM »
But the gun problem in this country is due to people who don't obey laws in the first place

And just who are they?  A number of folks on this board have declared they won't comply with licensure or registration requirements for firearms, notwithstanding that such laws are Constitutional and would be enacted by the peoples' elected representatives.   
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Strict Handgun Laws Lower Gun-Murder Rates in Cities
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2018, 12:27:08 PM »
And just who are they?  A number of folks on this board have declared they won't comply with licensure or registration requirements for firearms, notwithstanding that such laws are Constitutional and would be enacted by the peoples' elected representatives.

@Jazzhead

Who commits gun crime?  FBI data tells us.  80% of the people are already convicted felons

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