Author Topic: A proper place for sports and the national anthem  (Read 2349 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« on: May 27, 2018, 08:13:41 pm »
By Yours Truly
https://throneberryfields.blogspot.com/2018/05/a-proper-place-for-sports-and-national.html


Members of the Washington Nationals lined up
for "The Star Spangled Banner" before Opening
Day, including Bryce Harper (second from
left).


Is there a way to resolve the hoopla over national anthem protests before sporting events without driving everyone even crazier than they may have been driven already? Maybe. It might depend on what your definition of "crazy" is, of course, but there's also plenty to be said for the precept that patriotism and respect can't, and shouldn't, be compelled officially, whether by the government or by an employer.

Once such employer, the National Football League, whose former employee Colin Kaepernick started the whole take-a-knee anthem protest business in the first place, has now made it compulsory for players and team personnel to stand for "The Star Spangled Banner," unless they elect to remain in the locker room during its playing.

There's one school suggesting President Trump has the NFL scared to death, considering his fumings over the protests. (Wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say, "Get that son of a bitch off the field right now, out, he's fired. He's fired!") There's another suggesting the falling attendances at NFL games since Kaepernick first took his knee had the league and its lords scared to death.

The truth may be somewhere in the middle. Even if, when the NFL announced its new policy, Trump couldn't resist opening his big trap yet again: You have to stand proudly for the national anthem, or you shouldn't be playing, you shouldn't be there, maybe you shouldn't be in the country. (The thought that there are far more grotesque ways to protest than kneeling doesn't seem to occur to him.)

What hath baseball wrought?

Baseball, you say? You must have missed when I wrote a few days ago about the national anthem tradition beginning somewhat organically, during Game One of the 1918 World Series, when Red Sox third baseman Fred Thomas (himself a Navy man on furlough to play in the Series) heard the U.S. Navy band begin to play "The Star Spangled Banner" (which wasn't yet our official national anthem), faced the American flag, and saluted, all spontaneously, prompting others in the dugouts, on the field, and around the ballpark to do likewise.

Today baseball still has no official policy regarding "The Star Spangled Banner," which may have been the wisest course even if the song's playing before games remains a tradition. (Only one known major league baseball player, Oakland catcher Bruce Maxwell, has ever taken a knee as an anthem protest.) And perhaps professional sports might step back, think twice, and ponder whether it's time to modify the national anthems tradition.

Mandatory patriotism is antithetical to the sound idea that loving your country springs  properly from your heart alone. John Hirschauer of The Daily Wire kind of isolated the point a few days ago, when he wrote, "By choosing to make standing for the anthem a matter of coercion rather than a voluntary act of patriotism, it (quite wrongly) suggests that NFL executives and the kneeling movement's many malcontents in the country are unable to provide a coherent reason why America is worth honouring in spite of its flaws."

There's an argument that playing national anthems before every last game or race ("O Canada" features, too, at competitions involving Canadian teams) actually dilutes the anthems' meaning. American military services begin and end each official duty day with a flag raising ceremony and a playing of "The Star Spangled Banner." Professional sports, many fans' rhetoric notwithstanding, aren't exactly businesses that become matters of life and death, if you don't count the occasional NASCAR race crash. A foreign adversary wishing to start a war with the United States won't do it because they think the Astros are imperialist dogs.

I've loved baseball since boyhood. I've been a Mets fan since the day they were born, a Red Sox fan since that remarkable 1967 pennant race, an Angels fan from living for a time in southern California, though I thought Vin Scully's retirement should have been declared a national holiday (day of mourning?) in its own right. I've never flinched from hearing and saluting when "The Star Spangled Banner" was played before a game I attended in person. 

And I still find it touching that Casey Stengel, in 1975, dying of cancer in a hospital bed, watching a game on television, may have slid out of bed, picked up his old Mets cap from his hospital nightstand, stood with the cap held over his heart as the broadcast began with one and all risen for "The Star Spangled Banner," and said to himself, "I might as well do this one last time."

We might suggest American (and Canadian, for that matter) professional sports leagues can it with national anthems before every last game or race but save it for games played on significant national holidays. Would it be terribly un-American if "The Star Spangled Banner" was saved for opening baseball games played on Memorial Day, Independence Day, and Labour Day, to name the three major such holidays occurring during baseball season? Before football, basketball, and hockey games played on Veteran's Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Presidents' Day? Before NASCAR races run on most of those holidays? (For that matter, would Canada consider it terribly unpatriotic if its home sports teams limited "O Canada" to their home games played on Canada's national or provincial holidays?)

Restoring real meaning at the same time that you honour the sound precept that real patriotism is not induced at gunpoint, metaphoric or otherwise, in the centennial of Fred Thomas's spontaneous salute and its spontaneous inspiration, would be wisdom for a country that was founded by uncommonly wise men, one of whom ended the nation's first presidency in part with a warning against "the postures of pretended patriotism." Wisely.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
@Polly Ticks
@Applewood
@Machiavelli
@Bigun
@catfish1957
@Cyber Liberty
@DCPatriot
@dfwgator
@flowers
@Freya
@GrouchoTex
@Mom MD
@musiclady
@mystery-ak
@Right_in_Virginia
@Slip18
@TomSea
@truth_seeker
@WarmPotato
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 08:14:43 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Online catfish1957

  • Laken Riley.... Say her Name. And to every past and future democrat voter- Her blood is on your hands too!!!
  • Political Researcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,432
  • Gender: Male
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2018, 08:18:19 pm »
For a $13B revenue business, you'd figure the NFL would have more PR savy.  They've botched this issue from day 1.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2018, 08:19:48 pm »
For a $13B revenue business, you'd figure the NFL would have more PR savy.  They've botched this issue from day 1.
@catfish1957
I dare say that if they'd thought then the way I just enunciated my thoughts, they (and every other professional sports league) would save themselves a heap of disaster. Makes you wonder if football players aren't the only people working in the NFL who are feeling the effects of too many concussions.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 08:20:21 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,075
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2018, 08:29:48 pm »
Assuming they're not going to do away with the Anthem, I prefer the idea of a penalty that cannot be sold away.  The Jets owner already said he will pay the fines caused by the players, so it will have zero effect on the players.

I saw it mentioned in a story there would be a 15 yard penalty on the team for each player who kneels on the field during the Anthem.  I didn't  see it anywhere else, so it's probably not in the rule, but I like that idea a lot better than this crap the NFL came up with.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline endicom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,113
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2018, 08:48:41 pm »

Why should sports games start with the anthem? Why not operas?


Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2018, 08:51:11 pm »
Why should sports games start with the anthem? Why not operas?
@endicom
Or symphonies? Jazz concerts? Museum openings?

You got the idea, my friend.

But if you must do it, do it as I suggested in my essay. On the holidays that have deep meaning when such events take place on them.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Machiavelli

  • Curmudgeon
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,222
  • Gender: Male
  • Realist
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2018, 08:59:37 pm »
@EasyAce - another fine article.   goopo

Online mountaineer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 78,629
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2018, 09:04:57 pm »
 :thumbsup:
Support Israel's emergency medical service. afmda.org

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2018, 09:11:09 pm »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Applewood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2018, 10:03:41 pm »
Why should sports games start with the anthem? Why not operas?

How about opera and the Anthem?  Maybe Enrico Pallazo can do the honors.


! No longer available

« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 10:05:24 pm by Applewood »

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,689
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2018, 10:03:51 pm »
Why should sports games start with the anthem? Why not operas?

Because they do. The sports I attend have a prayer beforehand too. Were that not so, I would soon enough forego that attendance.

The NFL is going to find that out the hard way.

Offline goatprairie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,950
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2018, 12:25:39 am »
Why should sports games start with the anthem? Why not operas?
Good point.  I've never heard the NA played before a golf tournament. Are pro golfers and fans unpatriotic? Obviously not. Most American pro golfers tend to be conservative.
There is a time and place for the NA, but sports events are not necessarily them.  They Olympics is one sports event where it makes sense during the medal ceremony.  It would also take away one of the prime occasions for obnoxious protesters.

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2018, 12:33:28 am »
Good point.  I've never heard the NA played before a golf tournament. Are pro golfers and fans unpatriotic? Obviously not. Most American pro golfers tend to be conservative.
So far as I know, the PGA doesn't sound the national anthem before tournaments, anyway.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Applewood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2018, 04:35:17 am »
I want the Anthem to continue.  So there is no law or rule, but it is a tradition at some sporting events.  And I'm dam tired of so many people trying to take away our traditions. 

As far as I'm concerned, the problem with the Anthem comes from a minority of malcontents.  If they hate the US and its symbols, they can always leave.  I for one won't  miss them.

Online Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 79,658
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2018, 02:59:31 pm »
I want the Anthem to continue.  So there is no law or rule, but it is a tradition at some sporting events.  And I'm dam tired of so many people trying to take away our traditions. 

As far as I'm concerned, the problem with the Anthem comes from a minority of malcontents.  If they hate the US and its symbols, they can always leave.  I for one won't  miss them.

 goopo

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,746
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2018, 09:11:17 pm »
Good point.  I've never heard the NA played before a golf tournament. Are pro golfers and fans unpatriotic? Obviously not. Most American pro golfers tend to be conservative.
There is a time and place for the NA, but sports events are not necessarily them.  They Olympics is one sports event where it makes sense during the medal ceremony.  It would also take away one of the prime occasions for obnoxious protesters.
Completely different venue.

Upon initial tee-off, just a few players and spectators are in attendance, unlike a baseball or football game when the entire teamand audience is present.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 10:00:46 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Suppressed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,921
  • Gender: Male
    • Avatar
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2018, 09:23:16 pm »
Would it be terribly un-American if "The Star Spangled Banner" was saved for opening baseball games played on Memorial Day, Independence Day, and Labour Day, to name the three major such holidays occurring during baseball season? Before football, basketball, and hockey games played on Veteran's Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Presidents' Day? Before NASCAR races run on most of those holidays?

Softball fans sing national anthem after being told it wouldn't be played
+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2018, 10:12:40 pm »
Completely different venue.

Upon initial tee-off, just a few players and spectators are in attendance, unlike a baseball or football game when the entire teamand audience is present.
Doesn't that depend on the tournament? At tournaments such as the Masters you see a lot of spectators there. Same, I think, with such as the U.S. Open,
the PGA Championship, and the British Open . . .


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2018, 10:22:28 pm »
Softball fans sing national anthem after being told it wouldn't be played
@Suppressed
I saw that. And I wondered to myself, isn't it likewise possible that, had they not been told the anthem wouldn't be played, they might have done it spontaneously, anyway? It goes to part of what I argued in my original essay: spontaneous, from-the-heart exercises in patriotism mean far more, and say far more, than compulsory, under-orders patriotism. We are the United States of America, after all, we're not North Korea or some other such hellhole where patriotism is enforced at the end of a gun (or whatever other means Little Fat the Dear Leader deploys to liquidate those who demur from that sort of patriotism).

Which reminds me, regarding the "tradition" argument: There are traditions best kept. There are traditions best adjusted or modified. There are traditions best done away with. America has done, mostly, an admirable if not always perfect job of all three when need be, and will surely do it again. Singing "The Star Spangled Banner" before sports events qualifies as a tradition best adjusted or modified, really. Not done away with entirely, but brought to a more appropriate---and, yes, more meaningful---place.

All around the country today, baseball games kicked off with it. Tonight, a hockey playoff game between the Washington Capitals and the Las Vegas Golden Knights will kick off with it, too. But today is Memorial Day. That's a perfect and perfectly appropriate day on which to do it.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,075
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2018, 10:28:09 pm »
Doesn't that depend on the tournament? At tournaments such as the Masters you see a lot of spectators there. Same, I think, with such as the U.S. Open,
the PGA Championship, and the British Open . . .

The venues are still different. The spectators are spread out over many hundreds of yards at a golf course. They are concentrated in football stadiums, so a performance is viewed by all at the same time.

About limiting the SA to special days, that won't stop the protests because they will still happen, but it will anger the fans even more when done on a day like today. Eliminating the SA for most days will only please the protesters because that's exactly what they want.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 10:29:29 pm by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2018, 10:50:10 pm »
About limiting the SA to special days, that won't stop the protests because they will still happen, but it will anger the fans even more when done on a day like today. Eliminating the SA for most days will only please the protesters because that's exactly what they want.
@Cyber Liberty
There is also the chance that such a limitation might even deter such protesters. (And, I say again, such protesters can surely find more sinister ways of lodging a protest than kneeling.) You may find one or two stubborn recalcitrants who'd do it, but the ostracism factor would likely play big enough to deter most. And I think we know that spontaneous social ostracism is far to be preferred in such matters in a free society (what's left of it) than official mandates.

We bear in mind, of course, that anyone has a right to protest anything he or she pleases by other means, there does remain such a thing as the First Amendment. If Colin Kaepernick had chosen to write of his objection to police brutality (the issue that animated his original anthem protest in the first place), or to speak of it during an interview if the opportunity opened for him to do so, no one but a damned fool would reject his right to do so whatever they thought of his particular point of view on the matter. Protesting during a playing of the national anthem isn't to my taste, either, I should be very clear about that, if I wasn't earlier, but that said, I'd be far less outraged by an athlete--or a fan, for that matter---taking a knee during the anthem than by him or her, say,
burning an American flag.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 10:51:34 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,075
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2018, 11:47:14 pm »
@Cyber Liberty
There is also the chance that such a limitation might even deter such protesters. (And, I say again, such protesters can surely find more sinister ways of lodging a protest than kneeling.) You may find one or two stubborn recalcitrants who'd do it, but the ostracism factor would likely play big enough to deter most. And I think we know that spontaneous social ostracism is far to be preferred in such matters in a free society (what's left of it) than official mandates.

We bear in mind, of course, that anyone has a right to protest anything he or she pleases by other means, there does remain such a thing as the First Amendment. If Colin Kaepernick had chosen to write of his objection to police brutality (the issue that animated his original anthem protest in the first place), or to speak of it during an interview if the opportunity opened for him to do so, no one but a damned fool would reject his right to do so whatever they thought of his particular point of view on the matter. Protesting during a playing of the national anthem isn't to my taste, either, I should be very clear about that, if I wasn't earlier, but that said, I'd be far less outraged by an athlete--or a fan, for that matter---taking a knee during the anthem than by him or her, say,
burning an American flag.

Nothing would please the knee-kneelers more than seeing the SA done away with even in some games.  I prefer a solution that does not give them what they want.  The new rule will not stop the performances, either, because the leftist owners will pay the fines from their own pockets (thus holding the players harmless). 

I still like the 15-yard penalty for each player on his knees during the Anthem.  Do something that affects them personally that cannot be sold off.  I know this scoffs the premise of your article, but I don't agree with the plan to stop having a National Anthem because it's a relatively new tradition.  I know the NA is only a 100 year old tradition in Baseball, but God Bless America has only been a tradition since 2001.  I don't see people trying to soil that (yet).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 11:47:55 pm by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,746
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2018, 12:21:23 am »
Doesn't that depend on the tournament? At tournaments such as the Masters you see a lot of spectators there. Same, I think, with such as the U.S. Open,
the PGA Championship, and the British Open . . .
Obviously you have never watched golf tournaments.

It takes sometimes 5 hours to get everyone off at the #1 tee, and they do not all sit around waiting their turn.  Also, most all the spectators are already out of one of the 18 holes spread out over a typical +4 miles course to get their good view on a particular hole.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 12:24:46 am by IsailedawayfromFR »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
Re: A proper place for sports and the national anthem
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2018, 12:28:36 am »
. . . I don't agree with the plan to stop having a National Anthem because it's a relatively new tradition.  I know the NA is only a 100 year old tradition in Baseball, but God Bless America has only been a tradition since 2001.  I don't see people trying to soil that (yet).
My point wasn't to stop having the national anthem, just to modify its presence to points where it isn't a mere habit but something with real meaning. (I'd even throw in Game One of the World Series along with the major holidays, just because. ;) ) It's kind of like the way George Burns playing God in Oh, God! explained to John Denver playing the supermarket manager about cutting back on miracles, "People remember the miracle and forget why I did it." In a lot of ways, the habitual playing of a national anthem before a sports event might be like that. People rise and listen to or sing it but maybe forget what it was (and is) supposed to mean.

As for "God Bless America" during the seventh inning stretch, that actually seems to be petering out on its own. Not because of anyone "soiling" it, but as organically as it kind of began in the first place, the way "The Star Spangled Banner" became a baseball thing organically, without anyone's conscious prompting. (The last time I went to an Angels game it wasn't used in the seventh inning stretch; neither was it done here in Vegas during a 51s game this year, though I'd seen and heard it in the past here.) It may be as well that people associate singing "God Bless America" at ball games with the 9/11 atrocity and the actual meaning of doing it in its wake may have dissipated over time, you never know.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.