Author Topic: This Is Why We Will Never Register Our Guns Or Cooperate With Government Mandates  (Read 19581 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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My opinions are mixed on the CCW issue. First, correctly and Constitutionally, I should need no license to carry, concealed or openly anywhere in the US, its territories, or possessions.

As a practical matter, though, no one in that town in Oklahoma  or Kansas might know me or my intent (another reason to carry concealed, imho), and that might make some of the locals nervous. That permit should indicate to LEOs and others that I am not the sort of person inclined to criminal activity, i.e., that I am one of 'the good guys'. Unfortunately, it seems as if the hoplophobic indoctrination of even LEOs (who should be trained better) has even more scrutiny placed on a CCW holder than the average person, perhaps in hopes of scoring a weapon or weapons on some local technicality.  For that reason, it is prudent to be familiar with and to keep up with changes to local firearm laws where one travels.

I do not need a CCW in my home state (ND went to Constitutional carry) to carry concealed, and the permit is a holdover from an earlier time. Yet, despite my feelings on the issue, I maintain it, if for no other reason than to have a second form of identification that indicates I am not the felonious type. In addition, my permit includes "other dangerous weapons", and I can carry a pretty wide variety of devices, from knucks to knives to batons, etc., which are proscribed for the average person.  In that sense, I'm fine with having the permit. Let me note, though, that those devices are also items which fall under the broad spectrum definition of "arms", which are not restricted to firearms, even though that is the most common usage. Bows, arrows, spears, swords, and a host of other devices have been traditionally considered 'arms' as well, and the known world was conquered many times by those using such devices before the invention of gunpowder.

National CCW reciprocity should come under 'full faith and credit', or same-sex marriage licenses should not. You can't have it both ways. The former, in re: the RKBA is a stated Constitutional Right, an unalienable Right, and the latter is not specifically listed in the Constitution, and is prohibited by scripture (it's really hard to call something a "God-given Right" when it is declared abomination in scripture).

I have a simple enough solution, personally, I don't travel to states armed which don't grant reciprocity to my CCW--in fact, I don't travel to those states at all, if possible. I don't spend a dime there, so I don't support their tax systems or their way of life any more than is unavoidable. However, I must again note that according to the Constitution, those jurisdictions impose infringements on an enumerated and fundamental civil right. Practically, I have no desire to spend any time in such locations, much less prison time there, so they can sit on their rules and rotate for all I care, even though those rules are fundamentally and Constitutionally wrong.

However if those jurisdictions and the people in them can impose something like their ideations of morality upon mine in other forms, they should have to accept my fundamental, enumerated, unalienable Civil Right to be armed and leave me the hell alone. Anything less would be capricious and arbitrary enforcement of the Constitution. If the Constitution is Supreme law of the Land, in the absence of a severance clause, it should all apply to all, and not let some places pick and choose.
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C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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You've become incomprehensible.   The issue isn't compliance with unconstitutional mandates.  Registration of firearms ownership is perfectly Constitutional.   You demand the right to pick and choose which of the community's laws you will ignore.   You're no better than the illegal aliens you decry.   Your moral authority is zilch.
You cannot discern any differences between a citizen and a non-citizen.  Nor between an existing law and a hypothetical law.

That is a puke attempt on your part.
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Offline roamer_1

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My opinions are mixed on the CCW issue. First, correctly and Constitutionally, I should need no license to carry, concealed or openly anywhere in the US, its territories, or possessions.

Great post @Smokin Joe , as always.  :beer:

Quote
National CCW reciprocity should come under 'full faith and credit', or same-sex marriage licenses should not. You can't have it both ways. The former, in re: the RKBA is a stated Constitutional Right, an unalienable Right, and the latter is not specifically listed in the Constitution, and is prohibited by scripture (it's really hard to call something a "God-given Right" when it is declared abomination in scripture).

There's the hitch. But in fact, it is a whole lot more simple than it seems.
Like your driver's license, 'full faith and credit' does not apply equally in any event. Your competence must be assumed and granted (your DL allows you to drive in any state) but you are still beholden to the laws of the state or locality you are in.

That is what homo marriage broke - The state should be free to define it's requirements for its own license issuance, which must be obeyed within its sovereign borders, and the license holder must comply within that boundary... If a state defines 'one man and one woman', then any other form should by rights, be nullified... That doesn't change interstate actions = As an instance, an insurance company operating in a state that recognizes other marriage forms is free to recognize those marriages even across state lines for its purposes.

The same would apply wrt CCW. The license does not need to conform to any other state, as @thackney worries for... Rather, his CCW must be recognized, and should be reasonably allowed within the parameters of the state he is in. The fact of the CCW is forgone, even as his DL is... But in CA, that means something different from in TX, and he must meet that compliance.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Great post @Smokin Joe , as always.  :beer:

There's the hitch. But in fact, it is a whole lot more simple than it seems.
Like your driver's license, 'full faith and credit' does not apply equally in any event. Your competence must be assumed and granted (your DL allows you to drive in any state) but you are still beholden to the laws of the state or locality you are in.

That is what homo marriage broke - The state should be free to define it's requirements for its own license issuance, which must be obeyed within its sovereign borders, and the license holder must comply within that boundary... If a state defines 'one man and one woman', then any other form should by rights, be nullified... That doesn't change interstate actions = As an instance, an insurance company operating in a state that recognizes other marriage forms is free to recognize those marriages even across state lines for its purposes.

The same would apply wrt CCW. The license does not need to conform to any other state, as @thackney worries for... Rather, his CCW must be recognized, and should be reasonably allowed within the parameters of the state he is in. The fact of the CCW is forgone, even as his DL is... But in CA, that means something different from in TX, and he must meet that compliance.
So, for example, New Jersey would have to honor the CCW, but you are limited to 10 rounds in the mag instead of the standard 15. Just means more magazines...instead of a Felony.

Which would really be "common sense". I have not become a criminal in anything but paperwork if I were to cross that border: my nature, my principles, would have remained unchanged crossing some artificial boundary, only the law changes. I am no more likely to commit murder or mayhem there than I am standing in my front yard at home, and that universal acceptance of my CCW would acknowledge the universal principles for conduct I had manitained and recognize that fact, rather than put me on the 'Group W Bench' with the mother rapers and father stabbers.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline GrouchoTex

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Nice Arlo reference @Smokin Joe

Offline Axeslinger

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So, for example, New Jersey would have to honor the CCW, but you are limited to 10 rounds in the mag instead of the standard 15. Just means more magazines...instead of a Felony.

Which would really be "common sense". I have not become a criminal in anything but paperwork if I were to cross that border: my nature, my principles, would have remained unchanged crossing some artificial boundary, only the law changes. I am no more likely to commit murder or mayhem there than I am standing in my front yard at home, and that universal acceptance of my CCW would acknowledge the universal principles for conduct I had manitained and recognize that fact, rather than put me on the 'Group W Bench' with the mother rapers and father stabbers.
@roamer_1  @Smokin Joe

Hey!  Can y’all dial it back with all that common sense logic, please?!?  Good grief!  Our resident gutless statist tyrant wannabe won’t be able to handle it.  It’s not nearly “efficacious” or “reasonable” enough.
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@roamer_1  @Smokin Joe

Hey!  Can y’all dial it back with all that common sense logic, please?!?  Good grief!  Our resident gutless statist tyrant wannabe won’t be able to handle it.  It’s not nearly “efficacious” or “reasonable” enough.

I wouldn't worry about that. When he gets in over his head he just goes back to an earlier position and starts over, as if nobody ever said anything.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline roamer_1

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So, for example, New Jersey would have to honor the CCW, but you are limited to 10 rounds in the mag instead of the standard 15. Just means more magazines...instead of a Felony.

Which would really be "common sense". I have not become a criminal in anything but paperwork if I were to cross that border: my nature, my principles, would have remained unchanged crossing some artificial boundary, only the law changes. I am no more likely to commit murder or mayhem there than I am standing in my front yard at home, and that universal acceptance of my CCW would acknowledge the universal principles for conduct I had manitained and recognize that fact, rather than put me on the 'Group W Bench' with the mother rapers and father stabbers.

That's right... And I think there should be tolerance in that - You should be treated as one of the good guys if there is some non-compliance, whether correctable or not. Confiscation does not transmit that attitude. An infraction made in ignorance should always be a teachable moment, rather than throwing the book.

A warning issued and the compliance resolved should be enough, even if you have to be followed to a UPS store and witnessed properly sending the firearm to a point out of state/city (as in the case of an illegal weapon). The courtesy should be extended wrt the license, and ignorance of the law assumed...

A second violation in a short period of time would be when to start treating the offender as defiant or criminal.

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I wouldn't worry about that. When he gets in over his head he just goes back to an earlier position and starts over, as if nobody ever said anything.

I stopped talking to him for that very reason.   I don't do circular arguments.
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I stopped talking to him for that very reason.   I don't do circular arguments.

Not much point in it after that.  :shrug:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline roamer_1

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Hey!  Can y’all dial it back with all that common sense logic, please?!?  Good grief!  Our resident gutless statist tyrant wannabe won’t be able to handle it.  It’s not nearly “efficacious” or “reasonable” enough.

Heh heh...
 :beer:

Offline INVAR

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I wouldn't worry about that. When he gets in over his head he just goes back to an earlier position and starts over, as if nobody ever said anything.

Which should serve as a reminder and evidence of the fact that Jazzy is not here on this board to engage in discussion or conversation - he's here to push the Leftist agenda that he insists is the true 'conservative' position.

He is no different than the false teachers and false prophets whom lecture that Jesus was a Socialist and Chrislam is the path to salvation.

We know the true voice to follow - and Jazzy's positions 'aint even a shadow of what we know to be true.

Bullshit. CCW is a license. JUST LIKE a driver's license or a marriage license. Reciprocity - the very same reciprocity with which y'all imposed homo marriage and demanded recognition by the various states - THAT reciprocity demands it. Karma's a bitch.

Well again, the resident Leftist will tell us that some 'laws' are more equal than others, and that a minority of perverts can force us to bake homo wedding cakes with a government gun to our head is Constitutional, while the enumerated right to keep and bear arms can be reasonably regulated to the point of abolishment as long as 'the community' wants it to abolished.

Because you know, he is sick of us 'lawless' Conservatives calling for the refusal to comply with and open defiance of his ideas that he wants to make 'law'.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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@roamer_1  @Smokin Joe

Hey!  Can y’all dial it back with all that common sense logic, please?!?  Good grief!  Our resident gutless statist tyrant wannabe won’t be able to handle it.  It’s not nearly “efficacious” or “reasonable” enough.
Unnnnnnnnnngh!


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How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Well again, the resident Leftist will tell us that some 'laws' are more equal than others, and that a minority of perverts can force us to bake homo wedding cakes with a government gun to our head is Constitutional, while the enumerated right to keep and bear arms can be reasonably regulated to the point of abolishment as long as 'the community' wants it to abolished.

Because you know, he is sick of us 'lawless' Conservatives calling for the refusal to comply with and open defiance of his ideas that he wants to make 'law'.

Oh, heck no.
The liberals set the precedent wrt reciprocity.
If all the various states must accept the most liberal of marriage licenses, then all of the states must also accept the most liberal of CCW licenses... Which is, in fact, Constitutional carry... But since that is not technically an issued license, any issued CCW or classed weapons license must be accepted as a matter of reciprocity...

One state cannot nullify what another state allows any longer.

Offline INVAR

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Oh, heck no.
The liberals set the precedent wrt reciprocity.
If all the various states must accept the most liberal of marriage licenses, then all of the states must also accept the most liberal of CCW licenses... Which is, in fact, Constitutional carry... But since that is not technically an issued license, any issued CCW or classed weapons license must be accepted as a matter of reciprocity...

One state cannot nullify what another state allows any longer.

Except they can and will, with big applause by Jazzy himself.

He specifically told us he does not want 'Texas styled gun culture' imposed in his little neck of Pennsylvania or whatever liberal-left bastion his hovel is.  Yet he lectures us all on how San Francisco sexual behaviors must be imposed on the rest of us under the color of law and the premise of 'equal protection'.

Some laws are more equal than others in their eyes - and some perverted behaviors and hobbies are more goodly and better than others in their eyes.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline skeeter

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Oh, heck no.
The liberals set the precedent wrt reciprocity.
If all the various states must accept the most liberal of marriage licenses, then all of the states must also accept the most liberal of CCW licenses... Which is, in fact, Constitutional carry... But since that is not technically an issued license, any issued CCW or classed weapons license must be accepted as a matter of reciprocity...

One state cannot nullify what another state allows any longer.

Your statement assumes integrity within the legislature and the judiciary. They have none.

Offline txradioguy

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Except they can and will, with big applause by Jazzy himself.

He specifically told us he does not want 'Texas styled gun culture' imposed in his little neck of Pennsylvania or whatever liberal-left bastion his hovel is.  Yet he lectures us all on how San Francisco sexual behaviors must be imposed on the rest of us under the color of law and the premise of 'equal protection'.

Some laws are more equal than others in their eyes - and some perverted behaviors and hobbies are more goodly and better than others in their eyes.

@INVAR couldn't have said it better myself my friend.

You nailed it.
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Offline threadbender

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Wrong.

At that point your government will have totally nullified what little moral authority it has left, having made itself a despotic tyranny attempting to impose itself upon what remains of a free people.  We don't care if your elected reps decide to do what they did to shove ObamaCare on the country and declare it 'legal'.  In fact, we don't care if 90% of the country votes to become Communist and demands we abolish speech, religion, press and arms.  At the point any of that happens, we no longer consent to be governed by such a system.

It will at that time, become our sole duty to refuse and resist compliance by every and all means at our disposal.



And, this is why we need the 2A! It is an inalienable right!

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And, this is why we need the 2A! It is an inalienable right!

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Hadn't seen you here before. Welcome, and my Standard Greeting applies.

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Thank you for the welcome!!!
I am more of a lurker than a poster. This topic is a hot button to me. I hate that when we leave the state, we have to change our habits to please the gun control nazis south of us. Need to go check reciprocity for a few states since we will be taking a short rode trip soon. Illinois will be the worst. Although, if Jazzy is from PA, maybe it will be worse. Great.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Thank you for the welcome!!!
I am more of a lurker than a poster. This topic is a hot button to me. I hate that when we leave the state, we have to change our habits to please the gun control nazis south of us. Need to go check reciprocity for a few states since we will be taking a short rode trip soon. Illinois will be the worst. Although, if Jazzy is from PA, maybe it will be worse. Great.
Welcome to GBR.

Although I am also upset on the vagaries of the state gun laws I visit, in the big scheme of things, this is how it should be.

Keeping federalism strong in this country will keep this country stronger as weaker states succumb to those who have chosen freedom instead of stifling regulations.

Let California or New York lose valuable citizens who yearn for better places to live.
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Offline Jazzhead

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National CCW reciprocity should come under 'full faith and credit', or same-sex marriage licenses should not. You can't have it both ways. The former, in re: the RKBA is a stated Constitutional Right, an unalienable Right, and the latter is not specifically listed in the Constitution, and is prohibited by scripture (it's really hard to call something a "God-given Right" when it is declared abomination in scripture).

None of that is correct.   Civil marriage is a form of contract,  between two parties.   Full faith and credit has always included one state permitting enforcement of a contract entered into in another state.   A party married in New Jersey can move to Arkansas and be able to enforce the marriage contract, just like any other. 

Now,  Arkansas doesn't have to recognize the same rights and privileges to a civil marriage as New Jersey does.  If Arkansas doesn't let a married couple deduct the cost of home renovations on a state income tax return,  then that's the rule in Arkansas even if the deduction is available in New Jersey.   Of course, the that local law must, as per the Constitution, afford equal protection.  The deduction must be provided (or denied) to the parties to a marriage whether gay or straight. 

States (and localities) have traditionally been sovereign with respect to public security and safety issues.   If New Jersey won't allow concealed carry,  then just try to understand that there is simply no tradition of full faith and credit extended to other states to allow their citizens to travel to New Jersey with concealed weapons.

You might try to argue that reciprocity is indicated by the natural and Constitutionally-protected right to travel.  After all, that natural right lies behind why full faith and credit is extended to the enforcement of contracts, including marriage contracts.  But again,  public security and safety are traditionally local concerns,  up to local rules and local law enforcement.  You come to New Jersey,  you play by its rules.   You observe its speed limits, and you also obey its laws when carrying, or not carrying, a gun. 

Capiche? 

Quote
I have a simple enough solution, personally, I don't travel to states armed which don't grant reciprocity to my CCW--in fact, I don't travel to those states at all, if possible. I don't spend a dime there, so I don't support their tax systems or their way of life any more than is unavoidable. However, I must again note that according to the Constitution, those jurisdictions impose infringements on an enumerated and fundamental civil right. Practically, I have no desire to spend any time in such locations, much less prison time there, so they can sit on their rules and rotate for all I care, even though those rules are fundamentally and Constitutionally wrong.
 

That's an excellent policy.  By all means, stay away.  You'd make a poor neighbor with that kind of childish and selfish attitude.  And, as far as the Constitutional and federalism goes, it is you that is fundamentally wrong. 
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 03:08:06 pm by Jazzhead »
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That's an excellent policy.  By all means, stay away.  You'd make a poor neighbor with that kind of childish and selfish attitude.  And, as far as the Constitutional and federalism goes, it is you that is fundamentally wrong.

Hey @Jazzhead

You worked up the guts to volunteer yet?  Or are you still just another tyrant wannabe? 

NO ONE HERE IS BUYING WHAT YOU’RE SELLING.  Peddle it elsewhere statist.

Riddle me this:

Do you believe that any law passed by your “community” is inherently and unquestioningly valid?

Your comments elsewhere indicate yes.

Additionally, your own comments elsewhere indicate that as such, you are perfectly willing to fully empower the government, at the point OF A GUN, to enforce the law passed by your “community”.

You have also intimated that we citizens are forbidden from resisting said laws.

Perhaps I shouldnt have said forbidden...probably should have used a word you’re more familiar with: verboten...because you would have made one hell of a Nazi.  You are an enemy of the people and deserve ALL of the derision, ridicule and lack of respect we can muster.  May posterity forget you were our countryman
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 03:02:48 pm by Axeslinger »
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