Author Topic: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration  (Read 6030 times)

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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2018, 12:30:37 pm »
Wow. One minute we were have a discussion on the fine points of some SCOTUS ruling, the next there are bullets flying everywhere.

Nice work people. I'm proud of you.

No kidding!
A reasonable discussion and then here comes the "You Always/Never" crowd.

I am of the conclusion now, that some just want the fight, and nothing more.
I've learned the lesson from watching enough football, the person who retaliates always gets the flag.
I've decided not to buy into this anymore.
I think we ought to start calling these folks out, from both sides.
I'll just post:

WE'RE ON TO YOU!

...and walk away, and move on to the next thread.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 12:31:20 pm by GrouchoTex »

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2018, 12:33:12 pm »
No kidding!
A reasonable discussion and then here comes the "You Always/Never" crowd.

I am of the conclusion now, that some just want the fight, and nothing more.
I've learned the lesson from watching enough football, the person who retaliates always gets the flag.
I've decided not to buy into this anymore.
I think we ought to start calling these folks out, from both sides.
I'll just post:

WE'RE ON TO YOU!

...and walk away, and move on to the next thread.

I'M ON TO YOU!

Online DCPatriot

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2018, 12:35:36 pm »
I'M ON TO YOU!

LOL!   Excellent!   :laugh:
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2018, 12:41:15 pm »

Offline jpsb

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2018, 12:45:50 pm »
As I understand, the issue was not immigration so much, but rather the definition of that
constitutes a violent crime. Congress needs to do a better job of defining just what is and is not
a violent crime. Bashing Gorsuch over this is silly.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2018, 12:48:38 pm »
As I understand, the issue was not immigration so much, but rather the definition of that
constitutes a violent crime. Congress needs to do a better job of defining just what is and is not
a violent crime. Bashing Gorsuch over this is silly.

Get that shit out of here. Comments like that have no place on a thread like this.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2018, 12:49:49 pm »
Get that shit out of here. Comments like that have no place on a thread like this.

I'M ON TO YOU!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2018, 12:56:25 pm »
Is that some really really awesome sarcasm or what?

I'll go with "or what" for $500
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2018, 01:02:45 pm »
As I understand, the issue was not immigration so much, but rather the definition of that
constitutes a violent crime. Congress needs to do a better job of defining just what is and is not
a violent crime. Bashing Gorsuch over this is silly.

That's right.  Gorsuch's reasoning is sound as a pound.   The Constitutional guarantee of due process is perhaps our greatest bulwark against arbitrary government tyranny.   This guy was NOT an illegal alien, he was here lawfully and the law sets forth the parameters of under what circumstances he could be denied his liberty.   Simple burglary met the conditions for deportation only under a regime willing to twist the statute into knots.  Gorsuch saw through that.  Vague laws are an affront to the rule of law.   

One thing that frosts me - and the both the right and the left are guilty of it - is that we insist on letting the courts do our dirty work.   It's too hard to pass sound laws, or to fix bad laws - that would require right and left to compromise to assemble a majority.  So we hope the courts will overturn bad laws.   But the courts don't represent the people.

And too often, laws that Congress does pass constitute bare frameworks, to be filled in by the bureaucracy in the form of regulations.   But the bureaucrats are unelected too.

Congress has abdicated its responsibilities to the courts and the bureaucrats.    That's not how the Framers envisioned it.   Thank God for sound jurists like Justice Gorsuch who ignore the political howling from the right and do their job under the law and the Constitution.   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2018, 04:25:46 pm »
As I understand, the issue was not immigration so much, but rather the definition of that
constitutes a violent crime. Congress needs to do a better job of defining just what is and is not
a violent crime. Bashing Gorsuch over this is silly.
The way I see it, do we want repeat offenders of any crime, be it 'violent' or just a violation of someone's home and property?

This person may be here legally, but if they won't conduct themselves legally, they should be sent packing. We, as a nation should have the right to determine who we allow to stay, provided they are not citizens. You wouldn't let someone in your house who would steal your stuff.

Our house, our rules, and if they don't like our laws enough to repeatedly break them, Adios!
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2018, 04:29:16 pm »
Vague laws are an affront to the rule of law.   

One thing that frosts me - and the both the right and the left are guilty of it - is that we insist on letting the courts do our dirty work.   It's too hard to pass sound laws, or to fix bad laws - that would require right and left to compromise to assemble a majority.  So we hope the courts will overturn bad laws.   But the courts don't represent the people.

And too often, laws that Congress does pass constitute bare frameworks, to be filled in by the bureaucracy in the form of regulations.   But the bureaucrats are unelected too.

Congress has abdicated its responsibilities to the courts and the bureaucrats.    That's not how the Framers envisioned it.   Thank God for sound jurists like Justice Gorsuch who ignore the political howling from the right and do their job under the law and the Constitution.
For once (mark the calendar!), I agree with you. The Congress has largely abdicated its Constitutional responsibility to legislate and passed that off to bureaucrats and the courts who act with the full force of legislation.  Vague legislation gives far too much latitude to the wannabe petty tyrants secure in bureaucratic niches from which they are difficult to dislodge, and where they are largely free of repercussions for their actions.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2018, 04:55:35 pm »
For once (mark the calendar!), I agree with you. The Congress has largely abdicated its Constitutional responsibility to legislate and passed that off to bureaucrats and the courts who act with the full force of legislation.  Vague legislation gives far too much latitude to the wannabe petty tyrants secure in bureaucratic niches from which they are difficult to dislodge, and where they are largely free of repercussions for their actions.

Well said, @Smokin Joe
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2018, 05:01:16 pm »
Well said, @Smokin Joe

You and @Smokin Joe need to read up on Ting v. United States 1893
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2018, 05:03:06 pm »
Well said, @Smokin Joe

At the risk of "me tooism," I happen to agree with you as well.  It took me a while to research this out, because it wasn't at the top of my list of things to do, but now that I have I think Gorsuch made the correct call on this.  @Smokin Joe, lend me your red pen.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2018, 07:15:03 am »
You and @Smokin Joe need to read up on Ting v. United States 1893
In the Ting case, none of the petitioners had complied with the requirements of the then immigration law to obtain their permits as required to remain in the US legally. Apples and oranges, really.

In this instance, the plaintiff was legally present in the US, but not exhibiting legal conduct. However, the question is one of whether the burglary convictions constituted violent crimes. Therein is the rub, in that the law did not specify that the exhibition of what appeared to be a pattern of nonviolent behaviour which had not yet led to violent acts constituted sufficient cause for removal for violent crimes and revocation of legal status (with deportation).

While, philosophically, I agree we should expect those present inour country to abide by our laws and reserve the right to remove them from among us should they not honor those legalities, violent or not, that is not the way the law was framed. IMHO, that puts the animus for this problem on those who crafted poor legislation, which is where @Jazzhead and I are in agreement. With 200+ lawyers in Congress and another 100+ educators, there is no excuse for poorly written legislation, nor is there any Constitutional basis for them to order some department to 'promulgate regulations' with the force of law, imposing criminal and or civil penalties on the People which the Congress, the Legislators, have not specified. To do so forces the judiciary outside their purview, i.e. to legislate from the bench, and forces those who are tasked with enforcing the law (the executive branch agencies) to legislate, also outside their Constitutional purview except where specified.

No wonder those pusbags can't pass a budget or repeal bad legislation, they are out of practice when it comes to work.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2018, 09:55:17 am »
@Smokin Joe the Ting case states:

Quote
that the power to expel or deport (now "remove") non-citizens rests upon the same ground as the exclusion power and is equally "absolute and unqualified."

The federal government has exclusive and plenary power over immigration. Pepriid end of discussion  Later cases also found the plenary power to be an inherent sovereign power...

Do you begin to see where Gorsuch went wrong now?

Article 1, § 8, clause 4, of the United States Constitution specifically grants Congress the power to establish a "uniform Rule of Naturalization." By expressly allocating this power to Congress, the Constitution prevents the confusion that would result if individual states could bestow citizenship.

It says nothing in there about letting lower circuit courts or the Supreme Court have the ability to usurp this Congressional power set forth by the Constitution.

Nor is there anything that gives the SCOTUS the ability to override the federal government's exclusive and plenary power over immigration.

Or the President's for that matter.

Gorsuch screwed up on this one. Not only as illustrated above but also in using criminal law and trying to apply it where it doesn't belong in a federal immigration case. You've fallen for the Liberals line of defense here.

The heart of the matter is whether the Federal government can deport a resident alien.

At the end of the day whether he was a criminal or not doesn't matter. That's red herring facts introduced by the defense to muddy the water.

Does the federal government have the right to deport non citizen residents of the US?

The answer is yes.

Do non citizen residents have the luxury of due process like you and I?

The answer always has been and still should be a resounding NO.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 10:00:05 am by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2018, 11:00:11 am »

Do non citizen residents have the luxury of due process like you and I?

The answer always has been and still should be a resounding NO.

First of all, due process is no luxury, it is a right recognized by the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

And it is a right belonging not just to citizens,  but to resident aliens too.   Such aliens are lawfully present here - in the parlance,  the law has bestowed its favor upon them -  and such status cannot be reversed without due process.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2018, 11:08:34 am »
First of all, due process is no luxury, it is a right recognized by the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

It applies to citizens of the United States only.

It does not apply to non citizens. On that the court and the law has been clear for two centuries.

Quote
And it is a right belonging not just to citizens,  but to resident aliens too.   Such aliens are lawfully present here - in the parlance,  the law has bestowed its favor upon them -  and such status cannot be reversed without due process.

And your go to source...the sainted Supreme Court ruled otherwise.

Ting v US.

One of the original SCOTUS judges said so.

You're wrong...and Gorsuch is wrong. He may well tirn out to be right on other rumings.

But he screwed the pooch and applied the law incorrectly here in several ways.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 11:10:19 am by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline TomSea

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #93 on: April 25, 2018, 12:09:27 pm »
Yeah, well, we all get drawn in on occasion.  Try to resist taking threads off the rails with ill formed complaints about being mistreated on a forum that you participate in voluntarily.

And don't forget the "ignore" feature as well, don't blame the victim.

@Right_in_Virginia

Really, the main thing I think, is one is able to express an opinion, it's time for good people to just speak up and it's your view that is important, not someone who mainly just cusses at someone, taunts, calls them names and the like.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2018, 12:54:51 pm »
And don't forget the "ignore" feature as well, don't blame the victim.

@Right_in_Virginia

Really, the main thing I think, is one is able to express an opinion, it's time for good people to just speak up and it's your view that is important, not someone who mainly just cusses at someone, taunts, calls them names and the like.

What if I only do those things occassionally?  Would my view still be important?

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2018, 01:19:44 pm »
It applies to citizens of the United States only.

It does not apply to non citizens. On that the court and the law has been clear for two centuries.

And your go to source...the sainted Supreme Court ruled otherwise.

Ting v US.


You miss the point.  Ting merely recognized the Congress had the authority to establish all aspects of the nation's immigration policy, including rules and procedures for alien registration and deportation.

Congress did establish such procedures - but did so in a manner that was unconstitutionally vague.   The plaintiff was a legal resident alien, subject to deportation in accordance with the law established by Congress.   But that doesn't mean that in the application of that law, he isn't entitled to due process.   You are absolutely mistaken that alien residents are not protected by the same due process rights that you and I enjoy.   

The solution is to get Congress to fix the law, to remove the unconstitutional vagueness.   As has been pointed out by several here,  vague laws should be opposed by principled conservatives, for they encourage the arbitrary and capricious exercise of government power.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2018, 01:25:27 pm »
Does the federal government have the right to deport non citizen residents of the US?

The answer is yes.

I agree - subject to the resident alien's right to due process, same as you and I

Quote
Do non citizen residents have the luxury of due process like you and I?

The answer always has been and still should be a resounding NO.

How can you call yourself a conservative when you advocate that the federal government can arbitrarily and capriciously punish an individual who lawfully resides here?    The word "tyranny" gets tossed around a lot on this board,  such as when I suggest that gun owners register their firearms.   But tyranny does not exist when the Constitution mandates due process of law before rights and liberty can be extinguished.  I point that out merely to illustrate when TRUE tyranny is advocated - such as by yourself by your egregious comment above.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2018, 01:51:09 pm »
I agree - subject to the resident alien's right to due process, same as you and I

Resident Alien's do not have du process rights.  The courts have established that fact going back to our founding and supported by rulings in subsequent cases.

Quote
How can you call yourself a conservative when you advocate that the federal government can arbitrarily and capriciously punish an individual who lawfully resides here?    The word "tyranny" gets tossed around a lot on this board,  such as when I suggest that gun owners register their firearms.   But tyranny does not exist when the Constitution mandates due process of law before rights and liberty can be extinguished.  I point that out merely to illustrate when TRUE tyranny is advocated - such as by yourself by your egregious comment above.

If the person who is a legal resident alien...a non-citizen allowed to live in our country breaks the law...then he or she is NOT "lawfully residing here".  They have violated the agreement they signed in order to be granted status to stay in the United States.  Therefore they are subject to the Immigration Laws of the Federal Government and that law says they have to go.

This isn't tyranny.  It's following the rule of law and not making it up on the fly as you seem wont to do here frequently and as Gorsuch has done in this ruling in siding with the Liberal judges.

Tyranny is men in black robes ignoring black letter law and deciding capriciously to grant people rights they don't have according to the Constitution and the Immigration laws of the United States.  Tyranny is affording people who are not citizens rights they have not earned and in doing so sabotaging the very sovereignty of this country.

THAT is tyranny and that is what you're defending counselor.

The Conservative believes in the letter of the law and the law in this case says that the defendant in this case should be deported back to his home country according to the Immigration Laws of the United States.  That is what I'm defending...that is the Conservative stance.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2018, 02:06:01 pm »
You miss the point.  Ting merely recognized the Congress had the authority to establish all aspects of the nation's immigration policy, including rules and procedures for alien registration and deportation.

It seems you're missing the point.  Ting reinforces what the four Conservative justices ruled in the case.  The "rules and procedures" for Alien deportation were followed in this case based on what Congress has established as the nation's immigration policies and laws concerning immigration and deportation.

The U.S. followed the rules set forth buy Congress.  Gorsuch sided with the Liberal justices that sought to bypass and/or ignore the rules and create rights for a resident alien that he doesn't enjoy under U.S. immigration laws.
 
Quote
You are absolutely mistaken that alien residents are not protected by the same due process rights that you and I enjoy.

Really show me the case laws then.  Because I've presented evidence including case law that shows your dead wrong counselor.   

Here's another one for you.  Nishimura Ekiu v. United States (Sup.Ct.1892)

The Chinese Exclusion Case (Sup.Ct.1889)

Chy Lung v. Freeman (Sup.Ct.1875)

Demore v. Kim (Sup.Ct.2003)

Shaughnessy v. Mezei (Sup.Ct.1953) this one determined that non-citizens have no constitutional right to a hearing


Quote
The solution is to get Congress to fix the law, to remove the unconstitutional vagueness.   As has been pointed out by several here,  vague laws should be opposed by principled conservatives, for they encourage the arbitrary and capricious exercise of government power.

Congress was given broad power in the area of immigration and it's enumerated in the Constitution as well.

Article I, § 9, clause 1 The Migration and Importation Clause

Article I, § 8, clause 4 The Naturalization Clause


This claim that the law is vague is nonsensical crap.  It's enumerated in the Constitution and there is case law that supports and upholds the Immigration Laws of the country and what the do and don't provide non citizens who live in this country.

And due process is not and should not be provided to non resident aliens living in this country than they should to the prisoners at Gitmo.

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2018, 02:11:09 pm »
  Tyranny is affording people who are not citizens rights they have not earned and in doing so sabotaging the very sovereignty of this country.

THAT is tyranny and that is what you're defending counselor.

A resident alien has "earned" the right to stay here.  By the government's act of permitting him to stay, he has "earned" the right to due process if he should do something subsequent to potentially merit relinquishing that right.  In this case, the statute set forth criteria for grounds for deportation, that were too vague to be duly applied to this individual. 

It is not an affront to our sovereignty to afford a resident alien his due process rights.  To fail to provide such rights is the act of an arbitrary and capricious government - that is, a tyrant.     

Quote
The Conservative believes in the letter of the law and the law in this case says that the defendant in this case should be deported back to his home country according to the Immigration Laws of the United States.  That is what I'm defending...that is the Conservative stance.

There is no "letter of the law" - it is unconstitutionally vague.   You are defending the arbitrary and capricious exercise of government power.  You should be ashamed of yourself, if you call yourself a conservative.   
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