Author Topic: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration  (Read 6061 times)

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2018, 07:52:36 pm »
@Jazzhead You are deliberately conflating "immigrants" with "illegal immigrants."  I would remind you that is a hallmark of a far leftist, which is what most of us on this forum claim you really are, in contradiction to your assurances of being a "Reagan Republican."  Your scoffing in the post above merely reinforces our perception of you and your beliefs.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 07:53:32 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2018, 07:54:02 pm »
First off, Dimaya was a legal alien in this country, not an illegal one. Secondly this law was vague and sucked. Someone making an FTD flower delivery could be in violation of this burglary law. Lastly Scalia ruled the same way for the same reasons in Johnson v. US where another shit law with vague details threw a skinhead behind bars.

I would rather have an end to these garbage laws than have this dude deported. Having Dimaya living in the Philippians again doesn't effect the country one bit. Having a dangerous law like this on the books does.

Good decision by Gorsuch.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 07:54:36 pm by Frank Cannon »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2018, 07:59:59 pm »
First off, Dimaya was a legal alien in this country, not an illegal one. Secondly this law was vague and sucked. Someone making an FTD flower delivery could be in violation of this burglary law. Lastly Scalia ruled the same way for the same reasons in Johnson v. US where another shit law with vague details threw a skinhead behind bars.

I would rather have an end to these garbage laws than have this dude deported. Having Dimaya living in the Philippians again doesn't effect the country one bit. Having a dangerous law like this on the books does.

Good decision by Gorsuch.

A better defense of Gursuch's ruling than a row of laughing heads. Thanks.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2018, 08:06:00 pm »
Quote
Lastly Scalia ruled the same way for the same reasons in Johnson v. US where another shit law with vague details threw a skinhead behind bars.

Not so fast.  The Scalia ruling has nothing to do with this case.

Quote
Gorsuch relies on Scalia’s non-immigration decision on vagueness doctrine in Johnson, but as it relates to our immigration jurisprudence and history, he’d be wise to heed Scalia’s own advice. Scalia noted in a speech shortly before he passed away that modern justices place their interpretation of abstract principles over “the lived experiences and customs” of the American people. Referring to long-standing American traditions, Scalia admonished his fellow jurists to approach those issues with the mindset that a jurist “does not judge them; he is judged by them.”

And also:

Quote
Scalia, who in general did not like vague statutes, would be appalled at granting such rights to aliens. He was a strong believer in sovereignty and the plenary power doctrine. In his famous Zadvydas v. Davis dissent, he wrote categorically, “Insofar as a claimed legal right to release into this country is concerned, an alien under final order of removal stands on an equal footing with an inadmissible alien at the threshold of entry: He has no such right.”

Scalia made fun of the majority opinion that “obscured” the distinction between deportation and criminal punishment in “legal fog” to somehow suggest aliens have rights to remain in the country. The court used similar case law that merely prevented the government from throwing an alien in a labor camp without a judicial trial. “I am sure they cannot be tortured, as well–but neither prohibition has anything to do with their right to be released into the United States,” scoffed Scalia.

https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/gorsuch-dead-wrong-immigration/

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2018, 08:06:45 pm »
Quote
The case, Sessions v. Dimaya, was about a foreign national who was convicted twice of burglary and was ordered to be deported by the Obama administration.

At issue was not whether he received Due Process of law: He had been TWICE convicted of his particular crime. What was at issue was whether the Obama Administration could deport him.
Whether here legally or illegally, a foreign national can be deported for persistent criminal activity, including being here illegally. We are under no obligation to continue to tolerate such behaviour from our guests, and criminal behaviour is sufficient cause to revoke any legal status. We have expelled diplomats over such (generally espionage), we can sure kick out anyone else. IMHO, Gorsuch is in error.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2018, 08:14:44 pm »


EVERYONE is entitled to the due process of law.   The law will differ significantly with respect to those here illegally, but that does not mean the government can act arbitrarily without regard to the law.  And besides, the individual in this case was NOT an illegal alien.  He is a lawful permanent resident of the United States.  The fact that you didn't bother to ascertain that key fact is the reason that your first statement above is followed by three  :silly:.

The court settled this point long ago in Fong Yue Ting v. United States (1893): “[Deportation] is but a method of enforcing the return to his own country of an alien who has not complied with [statutory] conditions. … He has not, therefore, been deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.”

As Clarence Thomas mentioned in his dissent, none other than judicial strongman John Marshall wrote in an address to the Virginia state legislature that “the right of remain­ing in our country is vested in no alien; he enters and remains by the courtesy of the sovereign power, and that courtesy may at pleasure be withdrawn” without judicial review.

Quote
His decision was based on the due process right afforded to all of us.   Due process is guaranteed to both criminals and immigrants.


Criminal Law and Immigration law are two different things.  It's apples and oranges to try and compare the two.   To conflate the two is bad law.

Quote
The solution is simple - fix the statute if you want lawful permanent residents to be subject to deportation for simple burglary.  Otherwise, be glad that Justice Gorsuch is ruling as a true and impartial Constitutional conservative should.   

Gorsuch just gave a gift to Liberals and the no borders crowd.  You'd think someone with a law degree would KNOW that.

But then you think a  legal scholar would also know that since the beginning of the nation that to throw out the plenary power doctrine on immigration and the case law settled where this concerned is setting a dangerous precedent going forward and threatens the sovereignty of the nation.
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2018, 08:22:26 pm »
First off, Dimaya was a legal alien in this country, not an illegal one. Secondly this law was vague and sucked. Someone making an FTD flower delivery could be in violation of this burglary law. Lastly Scalia ruled the same way for the same reasons in Johnson v. US where another shit law with vague details threw a skinhead behind bars.

I would rather have an end to these garbage laws than have this dude deported. Having Dimaya living in the Philippians again doesn't effect the country one bit. Having a dangerous law like this on the books does.

Good decision by Gorsuch.

@Frank Cannon
I think this is the major difference.
He was a legal resident at the time of the crime, therefore the act of deportation, that you would do with someone here illegally, may or may not be in play, thus the vagueness of the law.

Of course, if a legal resident goes around committing crimes, we may all agree that we don't want them here anymore, but the law isn't that clear on this, and needs to be.

You know, I am all for the wall, more border agents, better techniques to find those who have over stayed visas, etc.
However, the laws being written and enforced correctly are paramount, or we are no better off than some 3rd world country, that makes it up as they go along.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2018, 08:33:48 pm »
Not so fast.  The Scalia ruling has nothing to do with this case.

And also:

https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/gorsuch-dead-wrong-immigration/

See. You are bogged down on immigration when this has nothing to do with immigration. This has to do with if a law is vague or not. This law is as vague as it gets as far as it's violence component. Immigration is just an aside to all of this. If he committed a murder or a rape there wouldn't be an argument here.

BTW if I go to Spain and rob a house, I am afforded the same legal protections as anyone else in that country legal wise. Same for a lot of places. If a Brit robs a house here in the US he is given the same protections. It's how our system works. If not, jurisdictions would be allowed to excite foreigners committing crimes on sight. Punishment though is a different matter. We should be able to eject people once they went through the system. Problem is that we have a vague law being used that doesn't give people a clear set of rules to live by. I've never considered burglary a violent crime and neither do millions of people out there, but it is if this shit law is allowed to stand.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2018, 08:45:17 pm »
I've often said, and I still believe, that there will be times when taking the truly conservative route will anger enough because in the case of a particular law under purview the net result would prove to fly against a particular preference. Gorsuch in his concurrence (he didn't write for the majority) took the properly conservative route and argued against the continuance of a bad law or badly-written law.

The principle Gorsuch enunciates here regarding one provision of immigration law is a scythe sharp enough to slice through
many practices of the administrative state, which translates often vague congressional sentiments into binding rules, a practice
indistinguishable from legislating. Gorsuch’s principle is also pertinent to something pernicious concerning which he has hitherto
expressed wholesome skepticism: “Chevron deference.”

This is the policy (named for the 1984 case in which the Supreme Court propounded it) whereby courts are required to defer to
administrative agencies’ interpretations of “ambiguous” laws when the interpretations are “reasonable.” Gorsuch has criticized this
emancipation of the administrative state from judicial supervision as “a judge-made doctrine for the abdication of judicial duty.” It
also is an incentive for slovenly lawmaking by a Congress too lazy or risk-averse to be precise in making policy choices, and so
lacking in institutional pride that it complacently sloughs off its Article I powers onto Article II entities. Gorsuch wants Article III
courts to circumscribe this disreputable behavior.

Gorsuch represents the growing ascendency of one kind of conservative jurisprudence, “judicial engagement,” over another kind,
“judicial deference.” Many conservatives have embraced populism where it least belongs, in judicial reasoning. They have advocated
broad judicial deference to decisions because they emanate from majoritarian institutions and processes. Progressives favor such
deference because it liberates executive power from congressional direction or judicial supervision. Gorsuch, a thinking person’s
conservative, declines to be complicit in this . . .


---George F. Will.

Before holding a lawful permanent resident alien like James Dimaya subject to removal for having committed a crime,
the Immigration and Nationality Act requires a judge to determine that the ordinary case of the alien's crime of conviction involves
a substantial risk that physical force may be used. But what does that mean? Just take the crime at issue in this case, California
burglary, which applies to everyone from armed home intruders to door-to-door salesmen peddling shady products. How, on that
vast spectrum, is anyone supposed to locate the ordinary case and say whether it includes a substantial risk of physical force? The
truth is, no one knows. The law's silence leaves judges to their intuitions and the people to their fate. In my judgment, the
Constitution demands more.


---Justice Gorsuch, in his concurring opinion, Sessions v. Dimaya.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 08:46:10 pm by EasyAce »


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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2018, 08:46:28 pm »
I've never considered burglary a violent crime and neither do millions of people out there, but it is if this shit law is allowed to stand.

I was just talking to Mrs. Liberty about this robbery definition this weekend (concerning a totally different matter), the topic being "burglary" vs "robbery."  She spent many years as a Court Reporter in LA.  Robbery is much more serious than burglary, because it has the element of "fear or force," making it a crime against a person.  Burglary is more of a property crime, and becomes robbery if somebody is in the house. 

I have not been following this case, but if the defendant is charged with simple burglary, that distinction is important.  I'm one of the millions who does not consider burglary to be a violent crime, at least not until I get my hands on the thug who put the grabs to my stuff.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2018, 08:51:06 pm »
I was just talking to Mrs. Liberty about this robbery definition this weekend (concerning a totally different matter), the topic being "burglary" vs "robbery."  She spent many years as a Court Reporter in LA.  Robbery is much more serious than burglary, because it has the element of "fear or force," making it a crime against a person.  Burglary is more of a property crime, and becomes robbery if somebody is in the house. 

I have not been following this case, but if the defendant is charged with simple burglary, that distinction is important.  I'm one of the millions who does not consider burglary to be a violent crime, at least not until I get my hands on the thug who put the grabs to my stuff.

Exactly. Robbery involved people. Burglary involves stuff. This law stinks and the only people who deserve the blame for this shitshow are the lazy legislators who are trying to split the baby with this garbage without getting and dirt on their hands.

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2018, 12:08:39 am »
HBR
GBR
TBR

Hannity, Gorsuch are merely surrogatess, for Trump and Trump Bashing Room's daily media feed of anti-Trump stories.

Wash, rinse, repeat. Gotcha, gotcha.

@truth_seeker

Cute.  But I haven't been here for days, and I see plenty of pro-Trump articles and threads.  How are you missing them?

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2018, 12:18:25 am »
@truth_seeker

Cute.  But I haven't been here for days, and I see plenty of pro-Trump articles and threads.  How are you missing them?

Did you actually read the threads today, on Hannity and Gorsuch? Bashing Trump or his surrogates is where the action is.

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2018, 12:24:45 am »
Did you actually read the threads today, on Hannity and Gorsuch? Bashing Trump or his surrogates is where the action is.

You said there were only Trump-bashing threads, and she just pointed out there are plenty of pro-Trump threads, and now you've moved to goalpost and claim they're not getting enough traffic
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2018, 12:25:31 am »
@truth_seeker

Cute.  But I haven't been here for days, and I see plenty of pro-Trump articles and threads.  How are you missing them?

I don't get it, Catherine.  I see those threads all the time.
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2018, 12:28:51 am »
I don't get it, Catherine.  I see those threads all the time.
There's pretty much always been a reasonable balance between pro-Trump articles-and-threads and not-pro-Trump articles-and-threads. Obvious enough
that even Ray Charles could have seen it.


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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2018, 12:29:39 am »
   I'm of the opinion @truth_seeker  that there are enough Trumpers here (who incidentally can post articles, also) to give TBR an aire of legitimacy.  Am I wrong?

@Right_in_Virginia posts more pro-Trump articles than anybody else.   And she gets shit upon 24/7 for all her efforts...without one ounce of support from ownership.

The other day, @Frank Cannon called the constant barrage of anti-Trump articles the result of "hate boners".   Crickets.

When I essentially say the same thing....in an EFFING members only thread (put there to soothe the feelings of the NTs) that certain members get "wood" every morning posting negative articles....the thread gets locked.

Go bleep yourself.
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2018, 01:10:57 am »
@Right_in_Virginia posts more pro-Trump articles than anybody else.
In fairness, she has competition at minimum from @rangerrebew .

And that's more than OK.

There should be plenty from and for everyone, pro-Donaldus Minimus and con-Donaldus Minimus alike.

The only echo chamber I ever really wanted to work with was the one in Gold Star Studios. I'd give anything to round up a few
good jazzy blues players and shed some musical blood in that one.


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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2018, 01:29:29 am »
Quote
There should be plenty from and for everyone, pro-Donaldus Minimus and con-Donaldus Minimus alike. 

@EasyAce you and I both know there's a balance...only the people who purposely foment dissent see it differently.
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Online bigheadfred

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2018, 01:43:47 am »
@Right_in_Virginia posts more pro-Trump articles than anybody else.   And she gets shit upon 24/7 for all her efforts...without one ounce of support from ownership.

The other day, @Frank Cannon called the constant barrage of anti-Trump articles the result of "hate boners".   Crickets.

When I essentially say the same thing....in an EFFING members only thread (put there to soothe the feelings of the NTs) that certain members get "wood" every morning posting negative articles....the thread gets locked.

Go bleep yourself.


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Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2018, 01:57:28 am »
@EasyAce you and I both know there's a balance...only the people who purposely foment dissent see it differently.

It's rather disconcerting that on a Forum priding itself on welcoming all views, especially all political views, that presenting an opinion differing from the majority is not only considered "purposely formenting dissent" but that this opinion is so accepted.  To present an alternate point of view here is to be slashed as an "agitator" ... someone with the audacity to "poke conservatives in the eye".

What the hell is this about?

The "injustices" and one-sided political views of TOS brought with it an influx of new members to this Forum --- each professing gratitude for the "fresh air" over here and the chance to express themselves without fear of ridicule or banishment.

I have been a member of this forum just about from its inception---yet I am now called what they were called on TOS --- a troll. 

Me.  A member in good standing for more than nine years.  Me.  A member who stayed through the leaner years only to watch good friends leave to end the snark, the personal disrespect and abuse is now a "troll". 

Those from the great migration may think they're creating the anti-FreeRepublic.  But, my friends, you are creating its mirror image.


« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 02:00:51 am by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2018, 02:02:01 am »
It's rather disconcerting that on a Forum priding itself on welcoming all views, especially all political views, that presenting an opinion differing from the majority is not only considered "purposely formenting dissent" but that this opinion is so accepted.  To present an alternate point of view here is to be slashed as an "agitator" ... someone with the audacity to "poke conservatives in the eye".

What the hell is this about?

The "injustices" and one-sided political views of TOS brought with it an influx of new members to this Forum --- each professing gratitude for the "fresh air" over here and the chance to express themselves without fear of ridicule or banishment.

I have been a member of this forum just about from its inception---yet I am now called what they were called on TOS --- a troll. 

Me.  A member in good standing for more than nine years.  Me.  A member who stayed through the leaner years only to watch good friends leave to end the snark, the personal disrespect and abuse is now a "troll". 

Those from the great migration may think they're creating the anti-FreeRepublic.  But, my friends, you are creating its mirror image.

Anything rattling in there about the topic of this thread, which since you have obviously forgotten is a Gorsuch ruling on immigration?

Offline TomSea

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2018, 02:02:45 am »
It's rather disconcerting that on a Forum priding itself on welcoming all views, especially all political views, that presenting an opinion differing from the majority is not only considered "purposely formenting dissent" but that this opinion is so accepted.  To present an alternate point of view here is to be slashed as an "agitator" ... someone with the audacity to "poke conservatives in the eye".

What the hell is this about?

The "injustices" and one-sided political views of TOS brought with it an influx of new members to this Forum --- each professing gratitude for the "fresh air" over here and the chance to express themselves without fear of ridicule or banishment.

I have been a member of this forum just about from its inception---yet I am now called what they were called on TOS --- a troll. 

Me.  A member in good standing for more than nine years.  Me.  A member who stayed through the leaner years only to watch good friends leave to end the snark, the personal disrespect and abuse is now a "troll". 

Those from the great migration may think they're creating the anti-FreeRepublic.  But, my friends, you are creating its mirror image.

Amen Sister, Bless you and all yours. You are such an asset to this forum. As they say, "haters going to hate" and that certainly doesn't describe you.  What you say is true and others have suffered such treatment too.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2018, 02:05:13 am »
I don't give a rat's patootie what Mark Levin's "Conservative Review" says, if he is so on top of things, he should run for office. I know he didn't author this but it is his website with their "checklist" conservatism.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2018, 02:06:10 am »
Anything rattling in there about the topic of this thread, which since you have obviously forgotten is a Gorsuch ruling on immigration?

Aw, she's just pizzed that the thread that really was all about her got locked....
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed: