Author Topic: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration  (Read 6064 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« on: April 23, 2018, 04:56:05 pm »
The “but Gorsuch…” rallying cry for voting GOP is starting to run out of gas as the judiciary gets worse and worse and even “our” appointees find some convoluted reason to go along with the left-wing judicial supremacists who make a mockery of the will of the people.

In case you thought courts granting new rights to criminal aliens was a pastime only of the left-wing judges on the Ninth Circuit, think again. Yesterday, Neil Gorsuch joined with the four most extreme-left justices to rule that an entire statute of Congress mandating deportation for criminal aliens convicted of a crime of violence is “unconstitutionally vague.” While many conservative commentators defending and even championing his opinion are focusing on the regulatory aspect of Gorsuch’s rationale as it applies to general criminal law, they fail to observe that this is truly unprecedented and divorced from our entire history of immigration jurisprudence on deportations.

The case, Sessions v. Dimaya, was about a foreign national who was convicted twice of burglary and was ordered to be deported by the Obama administration. The Ninth Circuit stepped in and said the clause of the law used to deport him was unconstitutional, because it is evidently unconstitutional to enforce our own immigration laws unless we spell out every possible crime in the statute so that foreign nationals know the entire laundry list of crimes for which they can be deported. A right to know!

The Supreme Court score was tied at 4-4, as even Anthony Kennedy agreed that we have a sovereign right to deport anyone pursuant to statute. By definition, a deportation statute cannot be unconstitutional unless the individual is a citizen. This was the quintessential case that was reheard so that Gorsuch could hear the case and cast his vote. Surprise! He was the deciding vote for the other side.

<snip>

Gorsuch’s entire argument misses the point that immigration is different altogether. No foreign national has the right to remain here against the will of the political branches. Gorsuch dealt with this point in only one sentence when he acknowledged the president’s power over immigration, but charged that “to acknowledge that the president has broad authority to act in this general area supplies no justification for allowing judges to give content to an impermissibly vague law.”

This is a very disturbing line of argument. Gorsuch is suggesting that it is automatically the court’s job to control the permissibility of a deportation. In reality, courts have no authority to block deportations unless a statute explicitly allows someone to stay. In this case, no sane person could have thought that committing two burglaries wouldn’t risk the criminal’s immigration status. Indeed, not a single judge ever thought to mess with this statute for decades. Similar statutes have been on the books since colonial times. Yet Gorsuch has the hubris to throw out the plenary power doctrine on immigration without even addressing it. â€œThis Court has repeatedly emphasized that ‘over no conceivable subject is the legislative power of Congress more complete than it is over’ the admission of aliens.”

What is even more disconcerting and broadly consequential is that Gorsuch conflates deportation with a criminal penalty. Even if Gorsuch were correct about adding a strict “fair notice standard” into the due process clause and even broadly applying it to foreign nationals, he fails to acknowledge that an uninterrupted stream of settled case law deems deportation as an extension of sovereignty, not a criminal punishment. Sure, we can’t indefinitely detain (without intent to deport) even an illegal alien without due process, but we can say goodbye to any illegal or legal immigrant we don’t want.

James Iredell, one of the authors of Article III of the Constitution and a founding member of the Supreme Court, addressed this principle in 1799:

Quote
“[A]ny alien coming to this country must or ought to know, that this being an independent nation, it has all the rights concerning the removal of aliens which belong by the law of nations to any other; that while he remains in the country in the character of an alien, he can claim no other privilege than such as an alien is entitled to, and consequently, whatever [risk] he may incur in that capacity is incurred voluntarily, with the hope that in due time by his unexceptionable conduct, he may become a citizen of the United States.”

https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/gorsuch-dead-wrong-immigration/
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2018, 05:01:40 pm »
So much for the rock-ribbed originalist...

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2018, 05:04:47 pm »
Gorsuch dealt with this point in only one sentence when he acknowledged the president’s power over immigration, but charged that “to acknowledge that the president has broad authority to act in this general area supplies no justification for allowing judges to give content to an impermissibly vague law.”

This is a very disturbing line of argument.


I disagree.
It was the proper ruling.
He won't  (the judiciary, that is) fill in the blanks and legislate from the bench, a vague law.
We would hope no conservative judge does this.
This will have to go back to congress to have a more defined bill passed, as it should.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2018, 05:10:59 pm »
Gorsuch dealt with this point in only one sentence when he acknowledged the president’s power over immigration, but charged that “to acknowledge that the president has broad authority to act in this general area supplies no justification for allowing judges to give content to an impermissibly vague law.”

This is a very disturbing line of argument.


I disagree.
It was the proper ruling.
He won't  (the judiciary, that is) fill in the blanks and legislate from the bench, a vague law.
We would hope no conservative judge does this.
This will have to go back to congress to have a more defined bill passed, as it should.

He's trying to equate criminal law with immigration law to come to his wrong conclusion.  Conservative justices made the right ruling...based on case history and immigration law going back to the founding of the country...sadly they were in the minority.

This is like when Roberts decided a penalty was actually a tax therefor constitutional and Obamacare could stand.

Gorsuch rewrote what immigration law is supposed to be and do based on criminal law and is in danger of creating due process rights for people who have never had them in the pasts...nor should they have them now.

Gorsuch just helped the left's cause for stealing our sovereignty by allowing illegals to stay in this country regardless of what the immigration laws says.


As the article said what Gorsuch did was to "throw out the plenary power doctrine on immigration without even addressing it."
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline ABX

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2018, 05:13:50 pm »
So much for the rock-ribbed originalist...

So far this is his first major ruling to judge where he goes....

John Roberts was also originally sold as a rock-ribbed originalist and an appeasement to Conservatives after the whole Harriet Meyers fiasco.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2018, 05:18:49 pm »
So fix the law, specify classes of crimes by US code (and any State or local law covering the same criminal acts), and toss them out. AMF!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Offline cato potatoe

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2018, 05:59:01 pm »
Unfortunately, this law is not going to be revisited while Schumer is the leader of his party.  If by some miracle it is, any replacement is bound to have some degree of vagueness ... unless they can list every circumstance leading to the arrest of an illegal immigrant.  It looks like Gorsuch screwed us over & I don't blame Trump for being upset about it.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2018, 06:21:42 pm »
So far this is his first major ruling to judge where he goes....

John Roberts was also originally sold as a rock-ribbed originalist and an appeasement to Conservatives after the whole Harriet Meyers fiasco.

That's right, and precisely why I was reticent in giving praise wrt his appointment. BOHICA  *****rollingeyes***** **nononono*

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2018, 06:34:21 pm »
HBR
GBR
TBR

Hannity, Gorsuch are merely surrogatess, for Trump and Trump Bashing Room's daily media feed of anti-Trump stories.

Wash, rinse, repeat. Gotcha, gotcha.


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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2018, 06:34:49 pm »
He's trying to equate criminal law with immigration law to come to his wrong conclusion.  Conservative justices made the right ruling...based on case history and immigration law going back to the founding of the country...sadly they were in the minority.

This is like when Roberts decided a penalty was actually a tax therefor constitutional and Obamacare could stand.

Gorsuch rewrote what immigration law is supposed to be and do based on criminal law and is in danger of creating due process rights for people who have never had them in the pasts...nor should they have them now.

Gorsuch just helped the left's cause for stealing our sovereignty by allowing illegals to stay in this country regardless of what the immigration laws says.


As the article said what Gorsuch did was to "throw out the plenary power doctrine on immigration without even addressing it."

I agree.  I think he's wrong.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2018, 06:39:03 pm »
HBR
GBR
TBR

Hannity, Gorsuch are merely surrogatess, for Trump and Trump Bashing Room's daily media feed of anti-Trump stories.

Wash, rinse, repeat. Gotcha, gotcha.

Care to discuss any of the merits of the article...the legal basis for the dissent and the majority opinion?

Or are you just here again to crap on the carpet and start a fight?
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline corbe

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2018, 06:49:40 pm »
HBR
GBR
TBR

Hannity, Gorsuch are merely surrogatess, for Trump and Trump Bashing Room's daily media feed of anti-Trump stories.

Wash, rinse, repeat. Gotcha, gotcha.




   I'm of the opinion @truth_seeker  that there are enough Trumpers here (who incidentally can post articles, also) to give TBR an aire of legitimacy.  Am I wrong?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:50:19 pm by corbe »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2018, 06:49:58 pm »
Some folks here may despise immigrants, but they're entitled to the due process of law.  And due process is imperiled if the law is unconstitutionally vague, leaving its disposition up to the arbitrary discretion and potential abuse of the government.

Gorsuch's opinion may have been in the context of protecting someone belonging to a class of human beings that some folks here revile,  but the principle he stands for protects the rights of you and me too. 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:51:45 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2018, 06:52:27 pm »
Folks here may despise immigrants, but they're entitled to the due process of law.  And due process is imperiled if the law is unconstitutionally vague, leaving its disposition up to the discretion and potential abuse of the government.

Gorsuch's opinion may have been in the context of protecting someone folks here revile,  but the principle he stands for protects the rights of you and me too.

First off no one here "despises" immigrants.

Illegal immigrants are NOT entitled to due process of U.S. law.  They never have been in the history of this country...and they shouldn't be allowed going forward.

Gorsuch wrongly mixed criminal and immigration law to side with the Liberals on the court.

He wiffed on his first major ruling where his vote was the deciding factor.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2018, 06:52:39 pm »
Folks here may despise immigrants, but they're entitled to the due process of law.  And due process is imperiled if the law is unconstitutionally vague, leaving its disposition up to the discretion and potential abuse of the government.

Gorsuch's opinion may have been in the context of protecting someone folks here revile,  but the principle he stands for protects the rights of you and me too.

@Jazzhead
Nobody here despises immigrants.  Most of us came from immigrants.

What we despise is contempt for the law and the undermining of our national security.

Our immigration law is a mess and is broken.   Fix it instead of ignoring the law and giving preferential treatment to those who break it.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2018, 06:53:08 pm »
@Jazzhead
Nobody here despises immigrants.  Most of us came from immigrants.

What we despise is contempt for the law and the undermining of our national security.

Our immigration law is a mess and is broken.   Fix it instead of ignoring the law and giving preferential treatment to those who break it.

Exactly.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2018, 06:56:29 pm »
Care to discuss any of the merits of the article...the legal basis for the dissent and the majority opinion?

Or are you just here again to crap on the carpet and start a fight?
I'm just here to "crap on the carpet," with my bias. Just like the never ending feed of anti-Trump biased material which is the main emphasis here.

The curated feed, if you will.


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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2018, 06:56:56 pm »
Some folks here may despise immigrants, but they're entitled to the due process of law.  And due process is imperiled if the law is unconstitutionally vague, leaving its disposition up to the arbitrary discretion and potential abuse of the government.

Gorsuch's opinion may have been in the context of protecting someone belonging to a class of human beings that some folks here revile,  but the principle he stands for protects the rights of you and me too.

Chew on this counselor.

Quote
The consequences of Gorsuch’s conflation of deportation with a criminal penalty are grave and sweeping. This will not only be used for criminal alien crime cases, which alone will open the door for thousands of terrible criminals to stay in this country. It will be used to grant rights even to illegal aliens. Gorsuch is reading case law on due process for aliens as a right to judicial review, not just an executive hearing, and he is applying it to deportation instead of only to indefinite detention.

The tens of thousands of truculent immigration lawyers will now litigate every single deportation to death. Section 212 of the INA gives broad authority to the executive branch to keep out those who are determined to be drug users. Are we now going to question such determinations?
What else do immigrants have the right to know before we can deport them? District and appellate judges are already granting a right to advanced notice of deadlines of asylum applications and mandating that illegal alien teenagers be told of their “right” to an abortion.

Gorsuch cleverly uses a left-wing trick of creating a surreptitious, yet broadly consequential new right, but couches it as a narrow textual reading that can easily be remedied by a new law. “It’s important to note the narrowness of our decision today,” declared a disingenuous Gorsuch. Yup, very narrow, inverting the fundamental relationship between the sovereign citizen and a foreign national.

https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/gorsuch-dead-wrong-immigration/

And don't sweep away the legal argument against what Gorsuch did with your vague generalities and dismissive tone like you always do.

Explain to us exactly how it's the right decision when never in our history has criminal law been applied to immigration law cases. the way that it is now in an attempt to do an end run on criminals being deported.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2018, 06:58:25 pm »
I'm just here to "crap on the carpet," with my bias. Just like the never ending feed of anti-Trump biased material which is the main emphasis here.

The curated feed, if you will.

And you're one of the biggest reasons why there is such a divide at TBR.  You foment it...and encourage it and purposely do what you can to keep the sh*t stirred.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2018, 07:03:49 pm »
And you're one of the biggest reasons why there is such a divide at TBR.  You foment it...and encourage it and purposely do what you can to keep the sh*t stirred.

Yeah all those comments that lump any and all Trump supporters into one evil smelly group has nothing to do with it.  Like the one that said all people who voted for Trump surrendered their principles.  (actually accused us of surrendering our principals but we understood what you meant.)
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2018, 07:07:49 pm »
Yeah all those comments that lump any and all Trump supporters into one evil smelly group has nothing to do with it.  Like the one that said all people who voted for Trump surrendered their principles.  (actually accused us of surrendering our principals but we understood what you meant.)

ANd you were doing so well...we were actually in agreement on a subject against a Liberal.

*sigh*

Oh well it was good while it lasted.

How about you get as pissed at the person that purposely disrupted a thread that was actually sticking to the topic?

Or is that too hard for you to do?
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2018, 07:32:38 pm »
Chew on this counselor.

https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/gorsuch-dead-wrong-immigration/

And don't sweep away the legal argument against what Gorsuch did with your vague generalities and dismissive tone like you always do.

Explain to us exactly how it's the right decision when never in our history has criminal law been applied to immigration law cases. the way that it is now in an attempt to do an end run on criminals being deported.
This might even have implications for the expulsion of foreign diplomats engaged in espionage, because it isn't 'violent' enough.

A solution might be to declare these people a national security risk, whisk 'em away to GITMO, and send them home. If we can't secure our borders, our nation is at risk.

Also, did Gorsuch conflate illegal aliens with those here legally when he was doling out rights from the bench? There IS a difference, and one does not equal the other.

Unfortunately, this is a disappointing setback on the illegal immigration issue.

IMHO, Gorsuch and 4 others own this decision, no one else, except the people in Congress.
Considering that out of that bunch there are over 200 lawyers and 100 whose profession was "education", they should be able to craft Bills which pass muster. ( Source: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43869.pdf p.5).

This implies some nonfeasance on their part, or intentional loopholes left to feed the lawyers and ensure invasion.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2018, 07:40:22 pm »
This might even have implications for the expulsion of foreign diplomats engaged in espionage, because it isn't 'violent' enough.

A solution might be to declare these people a national security risk, whisk 'em away to GITMO, and send them home. If we can't secure our borders, our nation is at risk.

Also, did Gorsuch conflate illegal aliens with those here legally when he was doling out rights from the bench? There IS a difference, and one does not equal the other.

Unfortunately, this is a disappointing setback on the illegal immigration issue.

IMHO, Gorsuch and 4 others own this decision, no one else, except the people in Congress.
Considering that out of that bunch there are over 200 lawyers and 100 whose profession was "education", they should be able to craft Bills which pass muster. ( Source: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43869.pdf p.5).

This implies some nonfeasance on their part, or intentional loopholes left to feed the lawyers and ensure invasion.

I believe the issue strictly dealt with deportation of illegals.  Not legal resident aliens.

I like your suggestion on how to deal with the illegals because of this ruling.  It might be an eye opener for some of those MS13 cretins being let out and set free to see what GITMO is really all about.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2018, 07:47:00 pm »
I believe the issue strictly dealt with deportation of illegals.  Not legal resident aliens.

I like your suggestion on how to deal with the illegals because of this ruling.  It might be an eye opener for some of those MS13 cretins being let out and set free to see what GITMO is really all about.
Well, if the illegals who have committed violent offenses get released because they have 'rights', how long before domestic mother rapers and father stabbers demand Equal Protection under the Law?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gorsuch is dead wrong on immigration
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2018, 07:48:33 pm »
First off no one here "despises" immigrants.

 :silly: :silly: :silly:

Quote
Illegal immigrants are NOT entitled to due process of U.S. law.  They never have been in the history of this country...and they shouldn't be allowed going forward.

EVERYONE is entitled to the due process of law.   The law will differ significantly with respect to those here illegally, but that does not mean the government can act arbitrarily without regard to the law.  And besides, the individual in this case was NOT an illegal alien.  He is a lawful permanent resident of the United States.  The fact that you didn't bother to ascertain that key fact is the reason that your first statement above is followed by three  :silly:.   

Quote
Gorsuch wrongly mixed criminal and immigration law to side with the Liberals on the court.

He wiffed on his first major ruling where his vote was the deciding factor.

His decision was based on the due process right afforded to all of us.   Due process is guaranteed to both criminals and immigrants.   

The solution is simple - fix the statute if you want lawful permanent residents to be subject to deportation for simple burglary.  Otherwise, be glad that Justice Gorsuch is ruling as a true and impartial Constitutional conservative should.     
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 07:49:53 pm by Jazzhead »
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