Author Topic: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns  (Read 15043 times)

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Offline thackney

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #175 on: April 25, 2018, 05:09:45 pm »
@thackney,  I will try to address your question when I have the time to do so.   

Thanks!
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Offline Restored

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #176 on: April 25, 2018, 05:19:36 pm »
If you buy a gun in a store, it is registered with the state. Have any of you ever bought a gun?
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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #177 on: April 25, 2018, 05:34:36 pm »
If you buy a gun in a store, it is registered with the state. Have any of you ever bought a gun?

What happens when you move out of the state?  It seems to me that data retention policy would change from state to state.
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Offline Restored

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #178 on: April 25, 2018, 05:37:59 pm »
The State as in The Feds. It's part of the background check. When the Virginia Tech gunman shot up the school, the cops immediately knew where he bought the guns because he filed out the paperwork for the background check. The paperwork includes the serial number of the weapon.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 05:38:32 pm by Restored »
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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #179 on: April 25, 2018, 05:38:11 pm »
Thanks!

I hope he does a better job of it than the time @Meldrew asked that question.  He just repeated the same platitudes about it being our responsibility to be good little citizens, sign zee papers and take the arrows coming our way, as he's been doing this entire thread (and every other one on the subject, come to think about it).
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #180 on: April 25, 2018, 05:44:39 pm »
The State as in The Feds. It's part of the background check. When the Virginia Tech gunman shot up the school, the cops immediately knew where he bought the guns because he filed out the paperwork for the background check.

The paper form is required to be on file at the gun store for 20 years.  The Feds are prohibited by law to retain the NICS record of the search (my best recollection here).  Of course, we already know how good the Feds are at following their own laws, so there's that...

AFAIK, they retrieved the purchase information of the various shooters by physically locating all the FFL licenses in proximity to the shooting, and actually digging out the forms.  But, how they really do it is secret, so I assume they've broken the law and just go to the database they keep illegally.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Restored

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #181 on: April 25, 2018, 05:48:13 pm »
Correct. The paperwork is there so it is essentially a registration. Now Jazz can rest easily knowing his plan is in place.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #182 on: April 25, 2018, 05:52:15 pm »
AFAIK, they retrieved the purchase information of the various shooters by physically locating all the FFL licenses in proximity to the shooting, and actually digging out the forms.  But, how they really do it is secret, so I assume they've broken the law and just go to the database they keep illegally.

Of course they do.  "Laws" are just for us little people.  The government and the reps who enslave us, the courts that pass decrees and the lobbyists who buy them are exempt from any "laws" that inhibit their rule over us.

Which is why anyone that trusts government NOT to abuse mechanisms to 'keep us all safe' such as Jazzy's harebrained registration scheme, are either idiots or lying scumbag tyrants. 

Government and their courts and their agents are the greatest threat and danger to your liberty on the planet aside from morons in the populace who make government their god to abuse you.
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #183 on: April 25, 2018, 06:01:23 pm »
When you purchased a gun in a store in 2002 in California, I think they fired a round to keep on file, for forensic purposes. 
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #184 on: April 25, 2018, 06:16:20 pm »
The paper form is required to be on file at the gun store for 20 years.  The Feds are prohibited by law to retain the NICS record of the search (my best recollection here).  Of course, we already know how good the Feds are at following their own laws, so there's that...

AFAIK, they retrieved the purchase information of the various shooters by physically locating all the FFL licenses in proximity to the shooting, and actually digging out the forms.  But, how they really do it is secret, so I assume they've broken the law and just go to the database they keep illegally.

They would never break the law.   Just like they didn't lie to get warrants or lie to cover up crimes committed by their favorite politician.

Of course they have a database.   They are also using secret govt surveillance for criminal prosecutions.

But since I haven't done anything wrong I don't have anything to worry about. 
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #185 on: April 25, 2018, 06:17:25 pm »
When you purchased a gun in a store in 2002 in California, I think they fired a round to keep on file, for forensic purposes.

Both of my revolvers (purchased in Texas) came that way.
Had a little note in the case from Ruger, along with the spent shell, about test fired for accuracy, etc.
I have no doubt that information on the groove pattern, etc, is on file.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #186 on: April 25, 2018, 06:22:07 pm »
Both of my revolvers (purchased in Texas) came that way.
Had a little note in the case from Ruger, along with the spent shell, about test fired for accuracy, etc.
I have no doubt that information on the groove pattern, etc, is on file.

It's one reason why purchasing our firearms person-to-person off the back of a pickup truck is the best way to ensure the government and meddlesome tyrants like Jazzhead have no idea what kind of weaponry we possess that they want to confiscate in the near future.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #187 on: April 25, 2018, 06:39:21 pm »
It's one reason why purchasing our firearms person-to-person off the back of a pickup truck is the best way to ensure the government and meddlesome tyrants like Jazzhead have no idea what kind of weaponry we possess that they want to confiscate in the near future.

I pass a hone down the barrel when I buy anything. Let em try that against their records..  :beer:

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #188 on: April 26, 2018, 02:24:05 am »
I pass a hone down the barrel when I buy anything. Let em try that against their records..  :beer:
I was gonna say, rebarrel, do a little work on the parts of the action that mark the cases and always police your brass if possible.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #189 on: April 26, 2018, 02:28:38 am »
I was gonna say, rebarrel, do a little work on the parts of the action that mark the cases and always police your brass if possible.

Yep...
But the hone works fine... just one pass and its different

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #190 on: April 26, 2018, 11:31:55 am »
I would like to explore this claim.

Let us start with use.  How does registration of a firearm enforce responsible use of a firearm as compared to an unregistered firearm?  What has changed impacting use?

The efficacy of registration upon the safe use of firearms is influenced in part by whether (as is the case with motor vehicles) it is coupled with an insurance requirement.  If we assume that is not the case,  then to me the primary value of registration is that it links a firearm to the person who is legally responsible for its transfer and disposition.   That affects usage in that the legal owner will likely take care to keep the firearm secured against theft, and will inventory his firearms to detect theft and unauthorized usage.   When a firearm is used in a crime, it can traced back to its owner.  At that point,  other aspects of the law determine whether the legal owner is responsible for the harm caused.   If he has documented the transfer of his firearm,  then he is off the legal hook.   If he has reported the theft, then he is (IMO) off the legal hook.

 Obviously,  the state of a local jurisdiction's rules on liability for unauthorized use will play a role.   In the context of motor vehicles,  some states do not hold the owner responsible for unauthorized use of his car, but in other states, in certain circumstances, the owner is deemed responsible especially if has acted irresponsibly (such as leaving the keys in the ignition of an unlocked car).    If linked with an insurance regime,  victims of gun violence (just as the victims of motor vehicle use) can be compensated for medical costs under a no-fault system funded by premiums paid from a broadly-funded pool.   

The liability regime for motor vehicles is obviously different than that for firearms,  and will vary from place to place.   But registration is the tool by which the deadly device (car or gun) is linked to the person with color of legal responsibility,  and effectively compels him to dispose of the device in a documented manner.   

In short, registration is consistent with reasonable notions of owner responsibility.   Confiscation is not the objective, and the Constitution's protections are the means to ensure that.     
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Offline thackney

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #191 on: April 26, 2018, 11:56:57 am »
The efficacy of registration upon the safe use of firearms is influenced in part by whether (as is the case with motor vehicles) it is coupled with an insurance requirement.  If we assume that is not the case,  then to me the primary value of registration is that it links a firearm to the person who is legally responsible for its transfer and disposition.  That affects usage in that the legal owner will likely take care to keep the firearm secured against theft, and will inventory his firearms to detect theft and unauthorized usage.   When a firearm is used in a crime, it can traced back to its owner.  At that point,  other aspects of the law determine whether the legal owner is responsible for the harm caused.   If he has documented the transfer of his firearm,  then he is off the legal hook.   If he has reported the theft, then he is (IMO) off the legal hook.


Do you really believe that gun owners without registration don't care if their guns are stolen and don't do anything to protect them?

And guilty until proven innocent?  That isn't about use of the gun, but documentation.

 
Quote
Obviously,  the state of a local jurisdiction's rules on liability for unauthorized use will play a role.   In the context of motor vehicles,  some states do not hold the owner responsible for unauthorized use of his car, but in other states, in certain circumstances, the owner is deemed responsible especially if has acted irresponsibly (such as leaving the keys in the ignition of an unlocked car).    If linked with an insurance regime,  victims of gun violence (just as the victims of motor vehicle use) can be compensated for medical costs under a no-fault system funded by premiums paid from a broadly-funded pool. 


Are you claiming if someone steals my car, runs over a kid, my insurance would be responsible for paying the kid's medical bills?  I do not believe that is true in any state.

Quote
The liability regime for motor vehicles is obviously different than that for firearms,  and will vary from place to place.   But registration is the tool by which the deadly device (car or gun) is linked to the person with color of legal responsibility,  and effectively compels him to dispose of the device in a documented manner.   

In short, registration is consistent with reasonable notions of owner responsibility.   Confiscation is not the objective, and the Constitution's protections are the means to ensure that.

You seem to play both sides of the argument when you claim the Constitution protection prevents confiscation, while at the same time you claim only the Heller decision and not the Constitution provides individual right to own a gun.  Which is it?
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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #192 on: April 26, 2018, 12:53:48 pm »
Do you really believe that gun owners without registration don't care if their guns are stolen and don't do anything to protect them?

That is consistent with everything he's been saying about guns for as long as I've been seeing his posts.  Registration would "incentivize" us to be responsible, as if we aren't already.  It's really rather insulting.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #193 on: April 26, 2018, 01:02:44 pm »
That is consistent with everything he's been saying about guns for as long as I've been seeing his posts.  Registration would "incentivize" us to be responsible, as if we aren't already.  It's really rather insulting.

I do protect my firearms.  I lock my house when I leave.

Why should I be responsible for what a criminal does with my property?
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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #194 on: April 26, 2018, 01:04:41 pm »
I do protect my firearms.  I lock my house when I leave.

Why should I be responsible for what a criminal does with my property?

Because they're "Murder Machines." *****rollingeyes*****

And they should be taken away from the yahoos who waltz about with them.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline thackney

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #195 on: April 26, 2018, 01:05:00 pm »
I do protect my firearms.  I lock my house when I leave.

Why should I be responsible for what a criminal does with my property?

You would not be.  It is just another ruse to try to justify an unjustifiable position.  It is as if he imagines we leave them on the sidewalk in front of the house while we sleep.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #196 on: April 26, 2018, 01:05:03 pm »
Do you really believe that gun owners without registration don't care if their guns are stolen and don't do anything to protect them? 

Some do, some don't.   The point is there is far more incentive for the owner of a registered gun to report it stolen than the owner of an unregistered and untraceable gun.   

Quote
  That isn't about use of the gun, but documentation.

Documentation is helpful to the police by linking guns to their owners.   It is hardly a radical notion to ask a citizen to be responsible for the use and safekeeping of the killing devices he/she chooses to own.   

 

Quote
Are you claiming if someone steals my car, runs over a kid, my insurance would be responsible for paying the kid's medical bills?  I do not believe that is true in any state.

It is, in some states.  A couple of weeks ago I posted detailed information about that.   

Quote
You seem to play both sides of the argument when you claim the Constitution protection prevents confiscation, while at the same time you claim only the Heller decision and not the Constitution provides individual right to own a gun.  Which is it?

Good question!  Unlike most here,  I am worried that a small change in the SCOTUS's composition could well lead to a ruling that the Second Amendment does not protect the individual right to own a gun.   As I've explained a number of times, I think the reasoning and logic of the Heller decision provides an alternative basis for that protection - rooted in the Ninth amendment - but my recommendation that Congress take steps to codify that position has not met with favor from those who (naively, in my view) think the 2A is just fine as it is.   

So I'll put the question back to you - do YOU believe the individual RKBA in the Constitution is secure?  If not, why not?  If we both believe it is not secure, what can be done about it?  I've proposed something concrete to fix and secure the right.  What about you?     
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #197 on: April 26, 2018, 01:07:29 pm »


@thackney

I don't believe they actually think any of their proposals will help.  I don't think they care.

What they do care about is adding anything possible to make it more difficult to legally possess a firearm.  Anything that adds to the hassle, cost, liability is a step towards their utopia of only the govt having firearms.  Well the govt and rich people who can afford private security teams.

Along with this will be the barriers to lawful self-defense.     People in the UK have been prosecuted for using things like bb guns, golf clubs, bats, pens, and knives to defend their lives from criminals.  Not because they went too far but because they hurt the perpetrator.
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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #198 on: April 26, 2018, 01:15:16 pm »
@thackney @driftdiver @INVAR

If ever there was a ball teed up better than this one, I've never seen it.  Here's your 2-wood, this should be good for a few hundred yards down the fairway....
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Offline thackney

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Re: Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns
« Reply #199 on: April 26, 2018, 01:17:30 pm »
Some do, some don't.   The point is there is far more incentive for the owner of a registered gun to report it stolen than the owner of an unregistered and untraceable gun.

Reporting it stolen does nothing to prevent a crime being used by the stolen weapon.  It isn't about preventing a crime, injury or death; it is about assigning blame without know who actually committed the crime. 

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Documentation is helpful to the police by linking guns to their owners.

It does nothing to prevent the crime.

Quote
It is hardly a radical notion to ask a citizen to be responsible for the use and safekeeping of the killing devices he/she chooses to own.   

Negligence actions already have a consequence.  Registration does nothing to prove Duty, Breach, Causation or Damages.

 
Quote
It is, in some states.  A couple of weeks ago I posted detailed information about that.   

My searching (quick and limited) has shown different results.  I would like to find that info.  I believe it would also require negligence, not the equivalent of someone breaking into my home or garage and taking my property without permission.

 
Quote
Good question!  Unlike most here,  I am worried that a small change in the SCOTUS's composition could well lead to a ruling that the Second Amendment does not protect the individual right to own a gun.   As I've explained a number of times, I think the reasoning and logic of the Heller decision provides an alternative basis for that protection - rooted in the Ninth amendment - but my recommendation that Congress take steps to codify that position has not met with favor from those who (naively, in my view) think the 2A is just fine as it is.
   

Then can we say your claim we are protected against confiscation by the Constitution is false?  Or will you stop making both claims?

 
Quote
So I'll put the question back to you - do YOU believe the individual RKBA in the Constitution is secure?  If not, why not?  If we both believe it is not secure, what can be done about it?  I've proposed something concrete to fix and secure the right.  What about you?

I believe it is, but it is impacted by the State Government.  If any federal congressional action is taken, I would want it to use the 2nd Amendment for laws restricting government action on the "shall not be infringed" statement.  Anything else would be an establishment of "reasons for infringement".
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