Author Topic: Donald Trump to Republicans: We Have to Go ‘Further Right’ as Democrats Go Further Left  (Read 5234 times)

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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@Right_in_Virginia
If the government is turned back over to the democrats, you'll have to prove that they actually aren't in power now, it won't be because of Invar and voters like us. I twill be because of the republican controlled government out democrating the democrats. We have seen this sorry story before and if the leadership doesn't get their feces together there will be no way to stop Titanic II. If this obscene spending bill goes to Trump and he signs it, I don't see how you are going to excuse it.

I'm not sure what *you* mean by "voters like us" @GtHawk   To me "voters like us" means the people who are overwhelmed and have abdicated their responsibilities.  They prefer to stand off to the side and point fingers at and belittle the people still in the fight.  The mantra for the "voters like us" --- irrespective of actual events --- is "we told you so ...  :tongue2: "

Why on earth would I invest further time and energy in debating those "voters like us"?  I will not join them in the shadows---  and they are immovable.   

But thanks for the ping.

Offline jpsb

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So...I don't get it.

It is very simple they are not conservatives they are NeverTrumpers so no matter what Trump does they will oppose it.  Now there are a few NTers that will grudgingly admit that every now and then,
not very often mind you, but every now and then Trump does something right. 

Offline jpsb

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Awesome, that means he won't sign this new huge spending bill, right?

Right now he is catching absolute hell on twitter. He's got to know his base is very unhappy about
this bill, very unhappy.

Offline GtHawk

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I'm not sure what *you* mean by "voters like us" @GtHawk   To me "voters like us" means the people who are overwhelmed and have abdicated their responsibilities.  They prefer to stand off to the side and point fingers at and belittle the people still in the fight.  The mantra for the "voters like us" --- irrespective of actual events --- is "we told you so ...  :tongue2: "

Why on earth would I invest further time and energy in debating those "voters like us"?  I will not join them in the shadows---  and they are immovable.   

But thanks for the ping.
@Right_in_Virginia
Interesting I make a statement about the situation and you go on the attack, voters like us refers to those who don't just unthinkingly vote the party line. You can go ahead and make all the inferences you want of that, just be aware they are all of your own making. As to immovable? if only someone actually was immovable on they're campaign platform and as for the ping I only did it to be polite, not like some who do it to snark.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 11:18:54 pm by GtHawk »

Offline INVAR

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To me "voters like us" means the people who are overwhelmed and have abdicated their responsibilities. 

In my estimation that applies to party hacks like you who no matter the evidence of adultery and abuse, or the countless Lucy/Charlie football yanks your party performs, you will continue to do a 'Hillary supports her man' and pimp your party and their corruption no matter what.  Like Hillary, somehow you think hitching yourself to a serial adulterer are your coattails to political power.

Unlike you, our responsibilities are not to people and party but principles and oaths your party has discarded and hold in contempt.   

They prefer to stand off to the side and point fingers at and belittle the people still in the fight. 

Stop lying to yourself.  You're not 'fighting' - you're practicing insanity and think the limits of 'fighting' are voting for Republicans.  Loyalty to your masters on the plantation while they rape you is not 'fighting'.

The mantra for the "voters like us" --- irrespective of actual events --- is "we told you so ...  :tongue2: "

Yes, we told you so.  This is repeated so that no one else listens to your pleas to vote for your party or your candidates.

Why on earth would I invest further time and energy in debating those "voters like us"?  I will not join them in the shadows---  and they are immovable. 

True.  We are immovable because facts demonstrate our cause and commentary is right. 

As to debate - you don't have anything worthwhile debating except to toss out snark and intimidation towards anyone who tells the truth about your president and your party.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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I don't believe  damn single thing that comes out of Tump's mouth... And that about covers it for me.

Okay, and I don't get that either.

What he stated was an opinion/suggestion, not a fact, so whether or not you "believe" him is a complete non-sequitor.

He said that the GOP should go right -- do you agree with that opinion, or not?

This is such an odd thread.  This site is full of people angry that the GOP isn't conservative enough, and that it would have more support if it actually became more conservative.  But when Trump says exactly what so many people have been arguing for years, they now disagree with the very thing they've been arguing all along, simply because Trump said it.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with Trump when you think he's wrong about something, even if that's 99% of the time.  But I suspect very few people here actually disagree with what Trump said in this one instance.  But they're disagreeing with him all the same.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Trump does not know what the "right" is.  He just said that on the spur of the moment and tomorrow won't remember he said it.  Tomorrow he may say the GOP needs to move left to cooperate with the left - and he doesn't know what the left is, either.

So what?  Nobody is asking or expecting you to believe that Trump is a conservative.  The thread isn't a referendum on whether or not you like Trump, but is instead about the statement he made that the GOP needs to move to the right.

Should the GOP move right, or not?

Offline INVAR

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Should the GOP move right, or not?

It's not going to, period.  Today speaks to that truth.

So why ask?
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline corbe

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@Applewood

To be totally honest, I've lost interest in politics.  Not totally, but I'm almost there.  It's all a kabuki show, in my opinion.  And I've come to believe there are far more important things.

    I have also @CatherineofAragon but it's like the proverbial car wreck on the Freeway, or in this case 'THE' Train Wreck, you inherently slow down, gawk and give thanks you weren't involved.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline EasyAce

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    I have also @CatherineofAragon but it's like the proverbial car wreck on the Freeway, or in this case 'THE' Train Wreck, you inherently slow down, gawk and give thanks you weren't involved.
You don't "inherently" slow  down for the wreck, you slow down because you're given no choice by all the jackasses who do it
in front of you. ;)


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline corbe

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         That Too @EasyAce, but this is what I had envisioned.




     I know there were many here, I saw them, we stood on the platform and told those Trump Trainers that the bridge up ahead was OUT, but NO they were pissed at Washington DC, now $2T later, they still are figuring it out.
 

« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 04:31:10 am by corbe »
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline EasyAce

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         That Too @EasyAce, but this is what I had envisioned.




     I know there were many here, I saw them, we stood on the platform and told those Trump Trainers that the bridge up ahead was OUT, but NO they were pissed at Washington DC, now $2T later, they still are figuring it out.
 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 04:41:31 am by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline roamer_1

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Okay, and I don't get that either.

What he stated was an opinion/suggestion, not a fact, so whether or not you "believe" him is a complete non-sequitor.

He said that the GOP should go right -- do you agree with that opinion, or not?

This is such an odd thread.  This site is full of people angry that the GOP isn't conservative enough, and that it would have more support if it actually became more conservative.  But when Trump says exactly what so many people have been arguing for years, they now disagree with the very thing they've been arguing all along, simply because Trump said it.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with Trump when you think he's wrong about something, even if that's 99% of the time.  But I suspect very few people here actually disagree with what Trump said in this one instance.  But they're disagreeing with him all the same.

You completely misunderstand me, @Maj. Bill Martin . I have no opinion on anything he says, because I have no faith in anything coming out of his mouth. He is a compulsive liar. He lies even when he doesn't have to, over things that don't even matter.

You can dissect individual statements, I suppose, and ask if I might agree - But my agreement will be inconsequential, because he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ALL his words are dead to me. Every one. None are trustworthy.

Offline roamer_1

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Offline corbe

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    Does it really matter at this point?   If the GOP started to move Right at this point, most here would believe it's either Aliens or another election scam.

No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline roamer_1

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Trump does not know what the "right" is.  He just said that on the spur of the moment and tomorrow won't remember he said it.  Tomorrow he may say the GOP needs to move left to cooperate with the left - and he doesn't know what the left is, either.

@Victoria33

That's right, and that's the problem with an ungovernable, unprincipled man... psychoanalysis notwithstanding.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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It's not going to, period.  Today speaks to that truth.

So why ask?

Just to be clear, I wasn't asking you.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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You can dissect individual statements, I suppose, and ask if I might agree - But my agreement will be inconsequential, because he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ALL his words are dead to me. Every one. None are trustworthy.

This kind of exemplifies the hyperbole that destroys decent debate.

I remember when he was running during the general election, and a lot of us who didn't like him generally said we were voting for him anyway because of the Supreme Court.  We were told that was dumb, because he was an absolute liar and wouldn't follow through, that he'd appoint the same kind of people as Hillary would, etc....  I remember also being told over the summer that there was no difference between Democrats and Republicans in general, that McConnell was a weasel would confirm Merrick Garland in the lame duck session anyway, etc...

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who remembers those discussions.

Well...that didn't happen.  McConnell actually hung firm on Garland, and kept the GOP majority in line on that issue.  Then Trump appointed the most consistent originalist/textualist possible in Gorsuch, and McConnell again rammed it through.  Since then -- for anyone who knows anything about the people who've been nominated -- Trump has been incredibly consistent in appointing more of the same to the federal bench.

Like I said, I understanding not liking a ton of things about the guy.  Plenty of stuff I don't like about him either.  But this 100%, balls to the wall cacophony of "Trump is horrible and I refuse to consider any exceptions to that" attitude destroys the ability to have decent discussions on anything.  Because no matter the topic, there is an immediate influx of people who basically ignore the topic itself, and just reiterate the same "Trump is a horrible person whom I hate and do not trust" line in every single thread.

I was just hoping things might be just a little bit different after more than six months, but nothing has changed even in the slightest, even though everyone already has made their positions clear to everyone else at least 10 times.  Some folks in here are like pull-string dolls with 4-5 set phrases, and all they do is keep yanking their own string in every thread, making the exact same arguments and hyperbolic statements over and over and over again.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 01:45:27 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline LMAO

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 Trump will remind us how he’s been great friends with Dems his whole life and how he’s looking to work out great deals with them.  It’ll be a real knee-slapper.

@edpc

 And that is  very likely to be the case
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Offline LMAO

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Right now he is catching absolute hell on twitter. He's got to know his base is very unhappy about
this bill, very unhappy.

And if he vetoes it,even if Congress overrides his veto, I will tip my hat to him.
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline roamer_1

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This kind of exemplifies the hyperbole that destroys decent debate.

I remember when he was running during the general election, and a lot of us who didn't like him generally said we were voting for him anyway because of the Supreme Court.  We were told that was dumb, because he was an absolute liar and wouldn't follow through, that he'd appoint the same kind of people as Hillary would, etc....  I remember also being told over the summer that there was no difference between Democrats and Republicans in general, that McConnell was a weasel would confirm Merrick Garland in the lame duck session anyway, etc...

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who remembers those discussions.

Well...that didn't happen.  McConnell actually hung firm on Garland, and kept the GOP majority in line on that issue.  Then Trump appointed the most consistent originalist/textualist possible in Gorsuch, and McConnell again rammed it through.  Since then -- for anyone who knows anything about the people who've been nominated -- Trump has been incredibly consistent in appointing more of the same to the federal bench.

Like I said, I understanding not liking a ton of things about the guy.  Plenty of stuff I don't like about him either.  But this 100%, balls to the wall cacophony of "Trump is horrible and I refuse to consider any exceptions to that" attitude destroys the ability to have decent discussions on anything.  Because no matter the topic, there is an immediate influx of people who basically ignore the topic itself, and just reiterate the same "Trump is a horrible person whom I hate and do not trust" line in every single thread.

I was just hoping things might be just a little bit different after more than six months, but nothing has changed even in the slightest, even though everyone already has made their positions clear to everyone else at least 10 times.  Some folks in here are like pull-string dolls with 4-5 set phrases, and all they do is keep yanking their own string in every thread, making the exact same arguments and hyperbolic statements over and over and over again.
@Maj. Bill Martin ,
So you consider my calling him a liar hyperbolic?

I will offer you the same challenge I have offered since the primaries. Find me ten minutes of Tump footage that does not contain a lie. Just ten minutes. At the time I first offered the challenge, it was nigh on impossible... And I doubt that has changed at all.

 If there is anything true about Tump at all, it is that he is a liar. That is not hyperbole, that is bare fact. And in that fact, my folks taught me all I need to know about liars, and that has served me well my whole life long.

There is *nothing* to hang Tump's promises on, because his word has no value. He means nothing. There can be no guarantee. That has been my argument from the beginning, and it is necessarily true.

You may well, be right about judges - But since Roberts, I will withhold opinion entirely, to include giving anyone credit - I had accredited Bush for Roberts, but look at where that 'conservative stalwart' went. Never again. So I may well owe Tump credit on judges, once they prove to be as they have been presented. And that will take more time than Tump's ill-begotten administration to determine.

And you are welcome to inquire again in another 6 months, or another 6 years. The result will remain the same. If you are looking for approval of Tump, you won't find it here. I set aside rose colored glasses long ago, in my youth, and Tump will still and always be a liar... So predictably, nothing will change in any significant manner.
 

Offline LMAO

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Should the GOP move right, or not?

I guess that all depends on what the definition of “moving right” means. If it means preservation of personal liberty and  fiscal prudence,  then the answer of course is yes.  Sometimes you can move too far to either direction that  you could end up becoming authoritarian.

I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline Sanguine

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I guess that all depends on what the definition of “moving right” means. If it means preservation of personal liberty and  fiscal prudence,  then the answer of course is yes.  Sometimes you can move too far to either direction that  you could end up becoming authoritarian.

Not to be argumentative, but I do want to point out that right=authoritarian is the European version of left/right.  The American version is that right tends to little to no government while left tends to authoritarianism like socialism, fascism and communism.  Generally, the "isms" are to the left.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 04:15:39 pm by Sanguine »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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I guess that all depends on what the definition of “moving right” means. If it means preservation of personal liberty and  fiscal prudence,  then the answer of course is yes.  Sometimes you can move too far to either direction that  you could end up becoming authoritarian.

Completely fair point -- and maybe that would be something to discuss.  Instead, we get the 1000th iteration of "Trump is a lying liar who lies and I hate him."  But whether the country can/should move more towards traditional conservatism, or more towards libertarianism, is damn good question.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 04:30:15 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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@Maj. Bill Martin ,
So you consider my calling him a liar hyperbolic?

No.  This is the part of your post I consider hyperbolic/unreasonable:

Quote
I have no opinion on anything he says, because I have no faith in anything coming out of his mouth. He is a compulsive liar. He lies even when he doesn't have to, over things that don't even matter.

"I have no opinion on anything he says...." I mean, what is that?

Trump says "I think we should build a wall" -- you have no opinion.
Trump says "Tariffs should be imposed on China" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "We need to cut the corporate tax rate" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "I oppose Transgender people in the military" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "We shouldn't be in the Paris Climate Accords" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "Republicans should move to the right" - you have no opinion.


That is exactly my point.  It is impossible to discuss substantive issues here because as soon as the name "Trump" appears, a horde of people are triggered to empty their magazines at the mere mention of his name, firing the exact same bullets at the exact same locations as they've been doing for more than a year.  Trying to discuss the underlying issue is impossible.


Quote
And you are welcome to inquire again in another 6 months, or another 6 years. The result will remain the same.

Trust me, I believe you on that one.  On their death beds 20 years from now, some people are still going to be raging about Trump to the exclusion of everything else.  "Hey, what do you think of that proposal from President Cruz to have national reciprocity on concealed carry?"  "Who cares!  Donald Trump is a lying liar who lies...Rosebud...."

I have zero illusion that anything is going to change in that regard.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 04:45:59 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »