Author Topic: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids  (Read 2130 times)

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2018, 12:32:46 am »
A lot of this discussion involves drawing the distinction between "chronic pain" and "acute pain." 
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2018, 12:36:45 am »
A lot of this discussion involves drawing the distinction between "chronic pain" and "acute pain."

@Cyber Liberty

Or should,anyhow. The CAN both be the same thing,but that is clearly not always the case.
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Offline GtHawk

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2018, 01:25:24 am »
The worst thing by far about the opioids is the fact that they lower your pain threshold.  Over time, it requires more and more narcotics to mask any given pain.  This is sometimes called "drug tolerance," but it even more pernicious than most folks realize.  Withdrawal is excruciating.  Practically everything hurts--BAD.


I've had patients tell me that.
Well I know that after years of use of Vicodin for migraines it became ineffective, so yeah I agree, it resulted in having to take extra which caused a crawling out of my skin sensation as well as horrendous rebound headaches, that's why even years later when I had surgeries I couldn't take them, and morphine just makes me nauseous. As for withdrawal? I am very fortunate to not have an addictive personality and never had any withdrawal from opioids or cigarettes, and trust me I count my blessings.

Offline GtHawk

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2018, 01:27:24 am »
A lot of this discussion involves drawing the distinction between "chronic pain" and "acute pain."
I think they go hand in hand with one being inconsistent aspect of the other, at least for me. :shrug:

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2018, 03:54:02 am »
I think they go hand in hand with one being inconsistent aspect of the other, at least for me. :shrug:

@GtHawk

Probably true,but when you are hurting it is hard to make a distinction.

I hurt somewhere every day. Usually several "somewheres". The major difference is some days are better than others.
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Offline GtHawk

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2018, 04:01:23 am »
@GtHawk

Probably true,but when you are hurting it is hard to make a distinction.

I hurt somewhere every day. Usually several "somewheres". The major difference is some days are better than others.
@sneakypete
I know we took very different roads, but I think we ended up at the same destination. May you have many of the better days! :beer:

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2018, 08:45:48 am »
@sneakypete
I know we took very different roads, but I think we ended up at the same destination. May you have many of the better days! :beer:

@GtHawk

And the same for you.
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Offline Restored

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2018, 02:09:38 pm »

I just don't even know how that would be possible.

Look at your knee. Now imagine if someone poured ground glass into the joints. That's what it feels like.
The remedy can also be really bad. Colchicine has some nasty side effects and Colchine is $6 a pill in the US, even with government insurance.
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Offline Victoria33

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2018, 02:42:51 pm »
@GtHawk

And the same for you.
@sneakypete
@GtHawk

As people here know, I take Vicodin (hydrocodone).  My doc goes by the book and hates he has to go through so much crap to give me that.  He said if he could find something that would work as well, he would give me that - so far, he has not found anything comparable to it.  I have a fast metabolism and think that is one reason why it works fairly fast to dull my pain.  I am never without pain, but it is bearable, most of the time, with this med.

What irritates me is Trump wants to go after drug companies.  That makes no sense.  They are in the business of making drugs, legal drugs, that is what they do; they don't prescribe but they are easy to get to, Trump has their names and locations, so Trump wants them to do what?  Stop making drugs?  That is totally stupid.  If they couldn't make drugs, they would go out of business, and no one could get any drug.  If that is what he wants, he is dumb as a stump (which he is). 

Those of us who have pain, like you two, know what it is like to wake up every morning with pain so bad you can't stay in bed any longer, and getting up is painful too, then getting something in your stomach so you can take your meds and feel better, able to put clothes on and move around the house.

By the way, my doc is a happy Jew - he comes in the room, gets the exam over with humor - does it make a difference he is a Jew?  He is a great guy.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2018, 03:01:01 pm »
@sneakypete
@GtHawk

Quote
As people here know, I take Vicodin (hydrocodone).  My doc goes by the book and hates he has to go through so much crap to give me that.  He said if he could find something that would work as well, he would give me that - so far, he has not found anything comparable to it.  I have a fast metabolism and think that is one reason why it works fairly fast to dull my pain.  I am never without pain, but it is bearable, most of the time, with this med.

I'm glad you have found something that kinda works for you. I just wish it were something less harmful that worked better. Then again,don't we all wish for that,for ourselves as well as for others?


Quote
What irritates me is Trump wants to go after drug companies.  That makes no sense.  They are in the business of making drugs, legal drugs, that is what they do; they don't prescribe but they are easy to get to, Trump has their names and locations, so Trump wants them to do what?  Stop making drugs?  That is totally stupid.  If they couldn't make drugs, they would go out of business, and no one could get any drug.  If that is what he wants, he is dumb as a stump (which he is). 

He is going after drug companies because they basically have a license to steal from the public treasury,and they do. To the tune of billions per year by collection Medicaid money. They are BUSINESSES IN BUSINESS TO EARN A PROFIT,not to help you or anyone else. As long as they can sell Vicodin,for example,at an obscene profit they hold a patent on,they have no incentive to to develop a drug that works better,and you KNOW they won't create a new one that will be cheaper. That would eat into their profits.

In FACT,I have seen reports from former insiders who claim the drug companies have been known to try to prevent the development of new drugs that would compete with theirs by filing lawsuits,buying out the smaller companies,using political influence to pass new laws to make it harder to get new drugs approved,etc,etc,etc.

Once again,they are in business to make money and help themselves,not you. If you also happen to be helped by something they do,that's just a bonus.

Someone else mentioned having to take daily pills that cost $6 each. Chances are that pill has been sold for decades now,and they can make 100 of them for a penny each. Even after all the associated expenses of getting them to the end customer,they would still be making an insane profit if they sold them for $1 each at the retail level.

So,yeah,given the HUGE chunk of the budget they get every year with no real competition,they NEED to be investigated,and watched like a hawk.



Quote
By the way, my doc is a happy Jew - he comes in the room, gets the exam over with humor - does it make a difference he is a Jew?
 

Not to anyone that is sane.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2018, 03:49:01 pm »
@Victoria33

Sorry to hear about that.  My friend that I talk about has that morning pain issue too.  She recently switched to Tramadol because her Doc was forced to cut her off the Hydrocodone by the State.  She's had good luck with it because it's faster acting.  That might prove to be the opposite of what you need if your metabolism is fast.
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Offline Victoria33

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2018, 05:05:01 pm »
@sneakypete

You said, "He is going after drug companies because they basically have a license to steal from the public treasury,and they do. To the tune of billions per year by collection Medicaid money. They are BUSINESSES IN BUSINESS TO EARN A PROFIT,not to help you or anyone else. As long as they can sell Vicodin, for example, at an obscene profit they hold a patent on,they have no incentive to to develop a drug that works better, and you KNOW they won't create a new one that will be cheaper. That would eat into their profits."

These are my opinions:

First, Trump is going after drug companies to stop them making opioid drugs.  If they stop making them, we can't get them and he thinks that would stop the problem with opioids.  This is not to stop drug companies getting money.

Second, Medicaid patients need drugs, too.  Medicaid doesn't just give the drug companies money for nothing.

Third, there IS a generic for Vicodin, and that is what I take, hydrocodone, the same mixture as Vicodin.  Sixty hydrocodone tablets costs me $18.66 with my insurance.  That is a one month supply and should have to go back to doc, see him face to face to get another month's worth.  However, he gives me three prescriptions at a time.  I take one to the drug company every month for three months, then have to go back to see doc face to face to get another three month's worth.

Fourth, you are exactly right about drugs with no generic.  My hands broke out with Eczema three months ago, the skin flaked off and there was raw skin bleeding.  Went to dermatologist, she gave me a script for a smallish tube of steroid cream.  The cost was $280!  With my insurance, I paid $77 for this small tube.  There is no way a tube of anything costs $280.  Many people could not get this cream unless they had good insurance, which I have, but $77 is still too much to pay for this tube of cream and many could not afford that - "do I get groceries or buy this cream?".  The cream did work and my hands cleared up, no more raw skin bleeding (did I mention raw skin made it painful to use my hands?), but I have to keep using it.

On my second trip to dermatologist for her to see if it was better, which it was cleared up, she gave me a card to get the cream cheaper, and that cost me $55 dollars with that card.  What is it with cards we don't know about that gets us a cheaper price?  Doctors have these cards to pass out when they want.  I don't have to go back to dermatologist, but have to keep using this expensive cream.  It is use that or have bleeding hands that really hurt.

Thanks for taking the time to write your long post.

Offline Victoria33

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2018, 05:09:56 pm »
@Victoria33

Sorry to hear about that.  My friend that I talk about has that morning pain issue too.  She recently switched to Tramadol because her Doc was forced to cut her off the Hydrocodone by the State.  She's had good luck with it because it's faster acting.  That might prove to be the opposite of what you need if your metabolism is fast.
@Cyber Liberty

If the Texas Board of Health stops people getting hydrocodone, I am going to have a major fit.  As I have said, my doc is looking for something to replace it that works as it does, but as yet he has nothing to replace it.  I will ask him about Tramadol the next time I see him.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2018, 10:23:46 pm »
@sneakypete


Fourth, you are exactly right about drugs with no generic.  My hands broke out with Eczema three months ago, the skin flaked off and there was raw skin bleeding.  Went to dermatologist, she gave me a script for a smallish tube of steroid cream.  The cost was $280!  With my insurance, I paid $77 for this small tube.  There is no way a tube of anything costs $280.  Many people could not get this cream unless they had good insurance, which I have, but $77 is still too much to pay for this tube of cream and many could not afford that - "do I get groceries or buy this cream?".  The cream did work and my hands cleared up, no more raw skin bleeding (did I mention raw skin made it painful to use my hands?), but I have to keep using it.

On my second trip to dermatologist for her to see if it was better, which it was cleared up, she gave me a card to get the cream cheaper, and that cost me $55 dollars with that card.  What is it with cards we don't know about that gets us a cheaper price?  Doctors have these cards to pass out when they want.  I don't have to go back to dermatologist, but have to keep using this expensive cream.  It is use that or have bleeding hands that really hurt.

Thanks for taking the time to write your long post.

I ain't no doctor and don't even play one on teebee,but I SUSPECT the difference between the two cremes is more than the cost. The first creme that was so expensive was probably so effective because it was more powerful. The second one that was cheaper is probably powerful enough to keep your condition under control once the cracks and bleeding have stopped,but not powerful enough to stop them. It is obviously easier to maintain a healthy condition than it is to create one.

While it is true the drug companies would screw you in a minute for profit,unless your doc is a major stockholder in that drug company,he or she didn't make a dime out of giving you the prescription for the expensive stuff first.
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Offline Victoria33

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2018, 02:44:26 pm »
@sneakypete

It was the same steroid cream - not different creams.  $77 with my insurance, $55 using the card she gave me.  Again, no small tube of any cream should cost $280.

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2018, 03:33:11 pm »
@sneakypete

It was the same steroid cream - not different creams.  $77 with my insurance, $55 using the card she gave me.  Again, no small tube of any cream should cost $280.

The coupon cards come and go, your Dr. probably did not have the card the first time you had to get the cream.

They love to charge for that stuff.  I had to get some Psoriasis medication once that was similarly priced for  a little tiny tube.  The Insurance wouldn't cover it until they did a confirmation call with the Dr.  I got it, but the gel was expensive as Heck.
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Offline GtHawk

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2018, 05:12:36 am »
@sneakypete

It was the same steroid cream - not different creams.  $77 with my insurance, $55 using the card she gave me.  Again, no small tube of any cream should cost $280.
@Victoria33
My wife needs a steroid cream and the price is similar, she was getting it using  GoodRx and getting it at Walmart for seventy plus dollars and just found out she could get it at Costco for almost half as much. my wife's insurance is pretty weak, all we can afford like many others, we end up getting her meds at several different pharmacies shopping for the best prices. Fortunately for us we have all the major pharmacies within 2 miles or less.

Offline Victoria33

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2018, 05:28:01 am »
@Victoria33
My wife needs a steroid cream and the price is similar, she was getting it using  GoodRx and getting it at Walmart for seventy plus dollars and just found out she could get it at Costco for almost half as much. my wife's insurance is pretty weak, all we can afford like many others, we end up getting her meds at several different pharmacies shopping for the best prices. Fortunately for us we have all the major pharmacies within 2 miles or less.
@sneakypete
@Cyber Liberty
@GtHawk

We all need to get the government's message to us:  DIE

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2018, 05:36:35 am »
@sneakypete
@Cyber Liberty
@GtHawk

We all need to get the government's message to us:  DIE
@Victoria33
Bummer for them, they must be talking into my deaf ear! I don't plan on going anywhere, I have another granddaughter coming this year and stayin to see her grow up!. It's  what I've been telling my mom for a couple of years now, she's 87 in poor health and hurting, but great grand kids keep coming along (four this year, a bumper crop!) and I tell her they need to know her.

Offline Victoria33

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2018, 05:40:06 am »
@Victoria33
Bummer for them, they must be talking into my deaf ear! I don't plan on going anywhere, I have another granddaughter coming this year and stayin to see her grow up!. It's  what I've been telling my mom for a couple of years now, she's 87 in poor health and hurting, but great grand kids keep coming along (four this year, a bumper crop!) and I tell her they need to know her.
@GtHawk

Good for telling her that.  I am 84 and trying to figure out what I am going to be when I grow up.

Offline GtHawk

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2018, 06:05:25 am »
@GtHawk

Good for telling her that.  I am 84 and trying to figure out what I am going to be when I grow up.
@Victoria33
Trouble I had is I never wanted to grow up, so far I've been pretending well enough to fool everyone though! One day soon I'm gonna quit acting and have one heck of a second childhood, while I still can.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 06:06:09 am by GtHawk »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2018, 03:56:32 pm »
@sneakypete
@Cyber Liberty
@GtHawk

We all need to get the government's message to us:  DIE

As Democrat Alan Grayson said, "And DIE QUICKLY."  He forgot to add "In mortal PAIN!" 9999hair out0000
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Re: Opioids Don’t Relieve Chronic Pain Any Better Than Non-Opioids
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2018, 02:03:47 am »
Last prescription I filled was $1,500 (30 pills), and the one before that was $5,000 (at least that was for 90 days).

I've actually done some research on these meds.

The second one is made by a very complex and touchy process.  It makes sense that it's expensive, and I don't know that the drug company should be punished for it, having to have all the controls in place for quality assurance and quality control.

The $30/pill for the first one (and, like @Victoria33, I metabolize meds quickly, so I have to take 3 of them at a time) is wholly a creation of the government and lawyers.  It takes only a few cents to make each capsule, yet the government has such strict controls on it, and lawyers have sued so successfully about it, and there are other political considerations, the price has been jacked up.

And remember, since I'm one of the very few filling this prescription, if I stop filling my prescription monthly, the pharmacy is out $5,000+ in inventory they must discard when it expires.  It was tough finding a pharmacy willing to take that risk, all for a pill that costs a few pennies to manufacture.

If the law allowed, I'd consider figuring out how to make my own!
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