Study: Tough gun laws keep more hands off the trigger

[Jazzhead]

Then it is only pushing an agenda and not concerned with actual safety of people, ie less deaths and less crimes, rather than less by a single type of tool.

No, it is attempting to determine whether specific laws are efficacious.   Why is that evidence of "agenda"?   Agenda is when leftists push bans on certain kinds of guns based on what they look like.   

[thackney]

No, it is attempting to determine whether specific laws are efficacious.   Why is that evidence of "agenda"?   Agenda is when leftists push bans on certain kinds of guns based on what they look like.   

Because, dead is dead.  Look at the data for suicide.  Multiple countries show significantly higher rates of suicide and far tougher gun control laws. 

Should we only be concerned with those that die by a firearm?  It would give misleading results.

Focus on the problem, not the tool.  Removing the tool doesn't remove the problem, it doesn't save lives.

[Jazzhead]

For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate.

Does Norway require gun owners to be licensed,  their arms to be registered, and transactions documented?   

[Jazzhead]

Should we only be concerned with those that die by a firearm?

Why yes, because the U.S. is uniquely the Wild West when it comes to millions of undocumented guns in private hands.

Focus on the problem, not the tool.  Removing the tool doesn't remove the problem, it doesn't save lives.

Of course I am focused on the problem.  IN THE UNITED STATES, it is violent deaths by firearms.  Not knives, not bombs, not sharp sticks.  Firearms.   

[thackney]

Why yes, because the U.S. is uniquely the Wild West when it comes to millions of undocumented guns in private hands.
Of course I am focused on the problem.  IN THE UNITED STATES, it is violent deaths by firearms.  Not knives, not bombs, not sharp sticks.  Firearms.

The problem is deaths.  You have blinders on to the problem.  Removal of the tool is not removal of the willingness to kill people.

[txradioguy]

Does Norway require gun owners to be licensed,  their arms to be registered, and transactions documented?

Yes it's like a gun grabbers wet dream...you'll love the way they do things.

Gun ownership is restricted in Norway, unless one has officially documented a use for the gun. By far the most common grounds for civilian ownership are hunting and sports shooting, in that order. Other needs can include special guard duties or self-defense, but the first is rare unless the person shows identification confirming that he or she is a trained guard or member of a law-enforcement agency.

There are special rules for collectors of guns. They are exempt from many parts of the regulation, but, in turn, they must meet even more narrow qualifications. Collectors may purchase, but not fire without permission, all kinds of guns in their respective areas of interest, which they have defined in advance.

Ownership is regulated in paragraph 7,[1] and responsibility for issuing a gun ownership license is given to the police authority in the applicant's district.

Rifle and shotgun ownership permission can be given to "sober and responsible" persons 18 years or older. The applicant for the permission must document a need for the weapon. Two exceptions exist to this age qualification. Persons under the age of 18, but over 16 may apply for rifle or shotgun ownership licence with the consent of parents or guardian. For handguns, the lowest ownership age is 21 with no exceptions allowed. For inherited weapons, it is up to the local police chief to make a decision based on the individual facts of the case.

An applicant must have a clean police record in order to obtain an ownership license.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Norway


But then again...Norway doesn't have a Second Amendment like we do that prevents the government from being this intrusive on our gun ownership rights.

[Jazzhead]

But then again...Norway doesn't have a Second Amendment like we do that prevents the government from being this intrusive on our gun ownership rights.

So gun violence in the U.S. is a function of our lack of laws and "wild west" gun culture?  Is that what you're saying?   

[txradioguy]

The problem is deaths.  You have blinders on to the problem.  Removal of the tool is not removal of the willingness to kill people.

Honestly he doesn't have blinders on.  He doesn't care about facts or that people will still murder people regardless of the tool used at the end of the day jazz just wants the guns out of the hands of people like you and me because he believes we don't need them nor have the right to own them.

[txradioguy]

So gun violence in the U.S. is a function of our lack of laws and "wild west" gun culture?  Is that what you're saying?

Not what I'm saying at all counselor...that's you trying to put words in my mouth....not to mention using the terminology and phrases of the Liberal gun grabbers in this country.

That little trick might work in Pre-law 101...but it doesn't work in real life.

[Jazzhead]

The problem is deaths.  You have blinders on to the problem.  Removal of the tool is not removal of the willingness to kill people.

First of all, I have never suggested "removing the tool"- just regulating it.   And second of all, the "tool" is uniquely deadly.   That idiot in Florida killed 17 kids - easy with a semiauto,  less so with brass knuckles or a knife.   

[Jazzhead]

Not what I'm saying at all counselor...that's you trying to put words in my mouth....not to mention using the terminology and phrases of the Liberal gun grabbers in this country.

That little trick might work in Pre-law 101...but it doesn't work in real life.

Hey, you're the one who cited a study citing Norway's high gun ownership rate and low murder rate.  What was your point,  given that Norway requires licensure, registration and documentation of transfers,  other than to highlight that gun culture can co-exist with regulation,  and that (so it would appear) regulation may be efficacious?   

[Free Vulcan]

Why yes, because the U.S. is uniquely the Wild West when it comes to millions of undocumented guns in private hands.

Undocumented how? By your private, made up definition?

Of course I am focused on the problem.  IN THE UNITED STATES, it is violent deaths by firearms.  Not knives, not bombs, not sharp sticks.  Firearms.

I thought dead was dead? Or...

[Restored]

We have "less deaths" that we did 20 years ago. But too many people still think it is OK to kill people. So long as that is true, we will have a problem. We have to quit blaming objects. Guns are harmless because they can't walk out and kill someone. Someone had to pull the trigger.

If you want to drastically reduce gun deaths, locate the top areas where people are killed with guns every year (it's almost always the same)and kill everyone in those areas with a quick-acting poison gas.  Boom. The number of gun deaths plummets. The ends justifies the means.

[txradioguy]

Hey, you're the one who cited a study citing Norway's high gun ownership rate and low murder rate.  What was your point,  given that Norway requires licensure, registration and documentation of transfers,  other than to highlight that gun culture can co-exist with regulation,  and that (so it would appear) regulation may be efficacious?   

And you're the one that attempted to somehow equate that to a "wild west mentality" in the U.S.

Sorry counselor...that won't fly here. 


The point that flew right over your pointed head is that Norway...a country that has hi gun ownership rates also has one of the lowest murder rates in Europe.

The Harvard study I cited shows there's no correlation between high gun ownership and high murder rates.

But because you didn't like that I provided an actual Harvard funded study that disproves your little leftist theory that less guns equal less murders...you purposely decided to take the discussion down another path to avoid the hard truth.

That's called deflection.  Were you ever to set foot in a real courtroom it might be considered a lame attempt at nullification...which is a common tactic by slimy defense attorneys when they don't have any other leg to stand on.

[thackney]

First of all, I have never suggested "removing the tool"- just regulating it.   And second of all, the "tool" is uniquely deadly.   That idiot in Florida killed 17 kids - easy with a semiauto,  less so with brass knuckles or a knife.   

Sorry, I meant remove the tool from the killer (while leaving the killer open to other methods).

Then why do other developed countries have murder rates or suicide rates comparable or even higher, yet also have strict gun control laws?

It is only pretending to solve the problem, while creating others.

[Free Vulcan]

So gun violence in the U.S. is a function of our lack of laws and "wild west" gun culture?  Is that what you're saying?

You realize that, after you take out suicides, most gun violence is caused by repeat criminals who don't obey gun laws anyway?

[truth_seeker]

No attempts to refute the study, I see.  Just name-calling and epithets.   

So what is your rebuttal, to this?

"Having sat on an attempted murder jury this past week, I can guarantee you that the conversation in the jury room would have been vastly different had the felon turned the gun on himself rather than on the man sweeping the convenience store floor."

[Cyber Liberty]

So what is your rebuttal, to this?

"Having sat on an attempted murder jury this past week, I can guarantee you that the conversation in the jury room would have been vastly different had the felon turned the gun on himself rather than on the man sweeping the convenience store floor."

Unless he's said something in the past couple of dozen posts, his rebuttal has been the one I usually see from him when he's been bested:  He will ignore what @Polly Ticks wrote.

[truth_seeker]

Does Norway require gun owners to be licensed,  their arms to be registered, and transactions documented?

For the most part, we already have that in the US. 

Arizona has very little in gun restrictions, compared to other states. But it nonetheless requires background checks, delivery through a registered gun dealer, etc.

The easy way is to just say "we need more strict gun laws.

The tough way, is to analyze government failures in these shootings, and to insist government shape up.

BTW why aren't you calling for stricter rules for vehicle, pressure cooker, knife and fertilizer sales?

[Cyber Liberty]

For the most part, we already have that in the US. 

Arizona has very little in gun restrictions, compared to other states. But it nonetheless requires background checks, delivery through a registered gun dealer, etc.

The easy way is to just say "we need more strict gun laws.

The tough way, is to analyze government failures in these shootings, and to insist government shape up.

BTW why aren't you calling for stricter rules for vehicle, pressure cooker, knife and fertilizer sales?

Pressure cookers, knives and fertilizer (and diesel fuel) are completely unregulated and "wild west."  I think you know I'm in AZ and I can be believed when I say I know what the "wild west" is like.  And yup, had to do a background  check to buy that rifle a couple weeks back.

[Jazzhead]

BTW why aren't you calling for stricter rules for vehicle, pressure cooker, knife and fertilizer sales?

Well, as for motor vehicles,  I'd like to see similar requirements for licensure, registration and insurance applied to firearms.   As for the other items,  let's address the most frequently-used "tools" for deadly violence first,  then let's talk about the others.   

[truth_seeker]

Pressure cookers, knives and fertilizer (and diesel fuel) are completely unregulated and "wild west."  I think you know I'm in AZ and I can be believed when I say I know what the "wild west" is like.  And yup, had to do a background  check to buy that rifle a couple weeks back.

I just called an AZ gun store this morning. Federal background check. AZ residency, or else waiting period.

Seems to be the most lenient state, already has the regs the gun grabbers are yapping about.

[Cyber Liberty]

I just called an AZ gun store this morning. Federal background check. AZ residency, or else waiting period.

Seems to be the most lenient state, already has the regs the gun grabbers are yapping about.

It's been that way for at least a decade.  And, in AZ, there is a limit to how many rifles you can buy in a set period of time because we're a border state.  I think it's 5 rifles in 4 weeks.  You can buy more in Philly.  Jazz actually has laws that are more lenient than AZ when it comes to purchasing long guns.

[truth_seeker]

Well, as for motor vehicles,  I'd like to see similar requirements for licensure, registration and insurance applied to firearms.   As for the other items,  let's address the most frequently-used "tools" for deadly violence first,  then let's talk about the others.   

Here is an alternate analysis. Why not outlaw guns, for certain races of people, in the highest gun violence locals?

Oakland and Stockton in California for instance. Detroit, St. Louis, Memphis, Chicago, Baltimore, etc.

There is the biggest bang, for your gun-grabbing buck that way.

Do you think those bad guys, will observe your rules, regulations etc.?

[Cyber Liberty]

Here is an alternate analysis. Why not outlaw guns, for certain races of people, in the highest gun violence locals?

Oakland and Stockton in California for instance. Detroit, St. Louis, Memphis, Chicago, Baltimore, etc.

There is the biggest bang, for your gun-grabbing buck that way.

Do you think those bad guys, will observe your rules, regulations etc.?

Nope.  It's "raciss" to imply people in those jurisdictions are violent.